Posted on 04/23/2013 1:31:08 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
I’ve learned over the years here that some posters are not worthy of much time or effort as their hearts and minds are closed.
So what's the come-back? If it were me it would be 'water and the Holy Spirit.'
I am glad you asked you asked.
The Greek word Anothon occurs exactly 12 times in 12 verses in the New Testament. The four words we are concerned with are Anothon which the Catholics contend means "From above" and the Fundies contend means again. The second word is Apanow, which means above/ over.
The third word is Palon- that really does mean again and Deuteron that means secondly. If the Protestants are correct when we look at each of these verses we should be able to substitute either word and have it make perfect sense. I have included several verses that use the word Palon to document the common use of that word. You will also notice that in John 3:4 that Nicodemus does not use either Palon or Anothon, but rather Deuteron, meaning secondly or second.
Matt 27:50 But Jesus cried out again (Palon) in a loud voice, and gave up his spirit.
Matt 27:51 And behold, the veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top (Anthon) to bottom. The earth quaked, rocks were split.
Mark 15:38 The veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top (above anthon) to bottom.
Luke 1:3 I too have decided, after investigating everything accurately anew (From their source anthon), to write it down in an orderly sequence for you, most excellent Theophilus,
John 3: 3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above (Anthon)."
John 3: 4 Nicodemus said to him, "How can a person once grown old be born again (duetron secondly)? Surely he cannot reenter his mother's womb and be born again, can he?"
John 3:31 The one who comes from above (Anthon) is above (Anthon) all. The one who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of earthly things. But the one who comes from heaven (is above all).
John 19:11 Jesus answered (him), "You would have no power over me if it had not been given to you from above (Anthon). For this reason the one who handed me over to you has the greater sin."
John 19:23 When the soldiers had crucified Jesus, they took his clothes and divided them into four shares, a share for each soldier. They also took his tunic, but the tunic was seamless, woven in one piece from the top (Anthon) down.
Acts 26:5 They have known about me from the start (Anthon) From the first), if they are willing to testify, that I have lived my life as a Pharisee, the strictest party of our religion.
Galatians 4:9 but now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again (Palon) Untranslated word Anthon (anew) to the weak and destitute elemental powers? Do you want to be slaves to them all over again (Palon)?
James 1: 17 all good giving and every perfect gift is from above (Anthon), coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no alteration or shadow caused by change.
James 3: 15 Wisdom of this kind does not come down from above (Anthon) but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic.
James 3: 17But the wisdom from above (Anthon) is first of all pure, then peaceable, gentle, compliant, full of mercy and good fruits, without inconstancy or insincerity.
All 12 verses with the Greek Translation Matt 27:50But Jesus cried out again (Palon) in a loud voice, and gave up his spirit. (Jesus did not cry out from above, he cried out a second time)
Mat 27:50 o de ihsouv palin kraxav fwnh megalh afhken to pneuma
Matt 27:51And behold, the veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top (Anothon) to bottom. The earth quaked, rocks were split,(The veil was not torn "again" it was torn from top to bottom)
Mat 27:51kai idou to katapetasma tou naou esxisqh ap eiv duo apo anwqen ewv katw eiv duo kai h gh eseisqh kai ai petrai esxisqhsan
Mark 15:38 The veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top (above Anothon) to bottom. (See above, no pun intended)
Mar 15:38 kai to katapetasma tou naou esxisqh eiv duo ap apo anwqen ewv katw
Luke 1:3 I too have decided, after investigating everything accurately anew (From their source Anothon), to write it down in an orderly sequence for you, most excellent Theophilus,(This is the only verse that you could conceivably substitute "Again", but the colloquial "From their source makes better sense)
Luke 1:3 edoxe edoxen kamoi parhkolouqhkoti anwqen pasin akribwv kaqexhv soi grayai kratiste qeofile
John 3: 3Jesus answered and said to him, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above (Anothon)."(Verse in contention, no comment required)
John 3:3 apekriqh o ihsouv kai eipen autw amhn amhn legw soi ean mh tiv gennhqh anwqen ou dunatai idein thn basileian tou qeou
John 3: 4 Nicodemus said to him, "How can a person once grown old be born again (duetron secondly)? Surely he cannot reenter his mother's womb and be born again, can he?" (Here is where the Prots really put their foot in it. Nicodemus never says again (Palon) he says Secondly (Deuteron)
John 3:4 legei prov auton o o nikodhmov pwv dunatai anqrwpov gennhqhnai gerwn wn mh dunatai eiv thn koilian thv mhtrov autou deuteron eiselqein kai gennhqhnai
John 3:31The one who comes from above (Anothon) is above (Apanow) all. The one who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of earthly things. But the one who comes from heaven (is above all).(Those that come" again" are "again" all, Makes no sense at all.)
Joh 3:31 o anwqen erxomenov epanw pantwn estin o wn ek thv ghv ek thv ghv estin kai ek thv ghv lalei o ek tou ouranou erxomenov epanw epanw pantwn estin estin
John 19:11Jesus answered (him), "You would have no power over me if it had not been given to you from above (Anothon). For this reason the one who handed me over to you has the greater sin." (Pilate was not given power again, he was given it from above, God allowed him to have power)
John 19:11 apekriqh autw o ihsouv ouk eixev exousian oudemian kat emou oudemian ei mh hn soi dedomenon soi anwqen dia touto o paradouv paradidouv me soi meizona amartian exei
John 19:23 When the soldiers had crucified Jesus, they took his clothes and divided them into four shares, a share for each soldier. They also took his tunic, but the tunic was seamless, woven in one piece from the top (Anothon) down. (The tunic was not woven again, it was woven from the top down)
John 19:23 oi oun stratiwtai ote estaurwsan ton ihsoun elabon ta imatia autou kai epoihsan tessara merh ekastw stratiwth merov kai ton xitwna hn de o xitwn arafov arrafov ek twn anwqen ufantov di olou
Acts 26:5 They have known about me from the start (Anothon, From the first), if they are willing to testify, that I have lived my life as a Pharisee, the strictest party of our religion. (They did not know about Paul "again" they new about him from the beginning)
Act 26:5 proginwskontev me anwqen ean qelwsi qelwsin marturein oti kata thn akribestathn airesin thv hmeterav qrhskeiav ezhsa farisaiov
Galatians 4:9 but now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again (Palon) Untranslated word Anothon (anew) to the weak and destitute elemental powers? Do you want to be slaves to them all over again (Palon)? (The phrase "from above" clearly does not fit here)
Gal 4:9 nun de gnontev qeon mallon de gnwsqentev upo qeou pwv epistrefete palin epi ta asqenh kai ptwxa stoixeia oiv palin anwqen douleuein qelete
James 1:17 all good giving and every perfect gift is from above (Anothon), coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no alteration or shadow caused by change. (Is the gift coming "again", no it is coming from God, who is "From above")
Jas 1:17 pasa dosiv agaqh kai pan dwrhma teleion anwqen estin katabainon apo tou patrov twn fwtwn par w ouk eni parallagh h trophv aposkiasma
James 3:15 Wisdom of this kind does not come down from above (Anothon) but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. (See Previous)
Jas 3:15 ouk estin auth h sofia anwqen katerxomenh alla all epigeiov yuxikh daimoniwdhv
James 3:17 But the wisdom from above (Anothon) is first of all pure, then peaceable, gentle, compliant, full of mercy and good fruits, without inconstancy or insincerity. (Again the wisdom is "from above", not "again")
Jas 3:17 h de anwqen sofia prwton men agnh estin epeita eirhnikh epieikhv eupeiqhv mesth eleouv kai karpwn agaqwn adiakritov kai anupokritov
Conclusion: The only reasonable definition of the word "Anthon" is "From above/ from the source or beginning", There is a perfectly good word for "again" but, neither Nicodemus, nor Jesus use that word, instead Nicodemus uses Deuteron. Nicodemus apparent confusion results from Jesus' use of the word "Born" not "From above" Anothon
However, in another sense, once a person meets and is transformed by Jesus, he is by that bond spiritually related to a whole family, since as St. Paul said, Jesus is the firstborn of many brothers. The new Christian has been given, as Jesus said, a hundred times more brothers and sisters.
Revelation 12:17 says: "Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus."
So the Church is the mother of all believers.
Certainly all who have God as their Father and Jesus as the "firstborn" Brother, have the Church as their Mother. Even Paul, who met Christ independently of Mother Church ---"like one abnormally born" he says--- (1 Corinthians 15:8) teaches that "His will is that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known (Ephesians 3:10).
In Ephesians he writes so insightfully, and extensively, about Christ's inseparable relationship to the Church, His Bride. Nobody who wants to be united to Christ could want to be separated from His Church --- since His intent is that it is through the Church that He wills His manifold wisdom to be made know.
That relationship may be, for some, paradoxical and mysterious (Paul uses the term a "profound mystery" ---"Mysterium tremendum" --- in Ephesians) but its via the Church, Mother and Bride, that we are related to our Divine Bridegroom.
That's beautiful, isn't it, my dear Boogie?
You make a good argument.Thanks for the education.
Off hand, do you know what it is in the Vulgate?
That seems right to me.
“And doing good work.... knowing that it is God’s gift of Grace that is working in me.”
The whole lot of it is a contradiction in terms. A man doing “good work” of his own free-will, and “God’s gift of grace” being earned. It’s vanity of vanities, to think that you will stand before God by your own merits, your own work, your own self-conversion. Let’s work on Romans 2 first.
Rom 2:6-7 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: (7) To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Your reading, apparently, is that as a Roman Catholic you are going to stand in front of the judgment seat of God and be judged for your works, and, obviously, be vindicated, or at least stand a chance at being vindicated.
If one actually reads Romans though, the exact opposite is what Paul is demonstrating. In chapter 1, Paul shows how the Gentiles will perish “without the law,” as they have no excuse. In Chapter 2, Paul beings his assault on the Jewish nation, which live with the law, and yet commits the same sins as the gentiles. From the verses right below the one you quoted:
Rom 2:9-12 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; (10) But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: (11) For there is no respect of persons with God. (12) For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
The conclusion here is that they will ALL be judged by the law (the Jews), and that the Gentiles would also perish based on the condemnation of the law of God written on their hearts.
In Chapter 3, Paul confirms the utter depravity of all people:
Rom 3:10-20 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: (11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. (12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (13) Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: (14) Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: (15) Their feet are swift to shed blood: (16) Destruction and misery are in their ways: (17) And the way of peace have they not known: (18) There is no fear of God before their eyes. (19) Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. (20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
The last verse is the most significant. Whenever you harp on law keeping to save yourself, I shall write all over it the phrase “by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
Paul’s argument in Romans is that the Law does not save, because no one can keep it. It is not the origin of sin, being good and perfect and holy, but it reveals the sin and depravity of man who constantly breaks the law of God. It cannot be emphasized enough that man is utterly depraved, and does not seek God or do the work of God without God working on Him. Even those who are redeemed already are not immune. Paul himself laments of the war in his body between his body which sins, and his mind which desires God:
Rom 7:14-25 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. (15) For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. (16) If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. (17) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. (18) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. (19) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. (20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. (21) I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. (22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: (23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. (24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
If Paul himself is brought under such trouble as sin (and all Christians are in the like predicament), and yet if your reading is true, then all Christians have much to fear in God, because the sins of the flesh are real and “will be judged.” But Paul says that we are dead to the law, and are married to Christ, which therefore follows that we are free from the curse of the law which is damnation, and are bound to Christ which, though we produce fruit and follow the great commandments (Love God, Love your Neighbor, by which we fulfill the whole law), we “persevere” through faith and dependence on Him, as all men are commanded:
Rom_1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
It is by faith that we receive not our own righteousness, but the imputed righteousness of Christ who lived perfectly. How can you add to the righteousness of Christ? And if we wear Him, what have we to fear? If you notice in Revelation, it is only the damned in the second resurrection who are explicitly told they are “judged according to their works.” Those who rise to the first resurrection are happy from start to finish.
Furthermore, you ignored my other post, but let’s talk about being “chosen” and how we are chosen. According to the scripture, many are called, and few are chosen, not according to our own works, but by the grace and purpose of God before the foundation of the world:
2Ti_1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
By “Grace” we need to understand that it cannot be earned in any way. Grace is, by definition, the unmerited favor of God to ordain you to salvation. The Romanists abuse the term terribly, because they imagine themselves earning a free-gift, or that they can lose grace, or fall back into grace, as if grace was the whim of man. Works cannot add to it, otherwise it is no more grace. It is either ALL grace, or it isn’t.
Rom_11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
It is by grace that God effectually calls all believers before the foundation of the world, who ordains us that we will be justified and produce fruit, and not because He foresaw that we would do good. It is the sovereign act of God, which belongs only to God, and cannot be gainsaid by man.
Rom 8:29-30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (30) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Joh_15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
You provide a scripture from Php 2:12, but look at the verse right beneath it:
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
The Apostle is clear that the good works we do do not come from ourselves (for we are depraved), but it is God who calls us, regenerates us, and justifies us, and “wills” in us to believe and to do good.
Not right off hand
3 respondit Iesus et dixit ei amen amen dico tibi nisi quis natus fuerit denuo non potest videre regnum DeiThis calls for further study, IMHO.
4 dicit ad eum Nicodemus quomodo potest homo nasci cum senex sit numquid potest in ventrem matris suae iterato introire et nasci
5 respondit Iesus amen amen dico tibi nisi quis renatus fuerit ex aqua et Spiritu non potest introire in regnum Dei
Um, no. You can’t just say I proved your point without showing how I did that. That;s a cop out. My guess is that you really don’t have a real response to what I said...because there isn’t one.
“I’ve learned over the years here that some posters are not worthy of much time or effort as their hearts and minds are closed.”
I’m new here and that is the impression I’m getting as well. It was like that in Christ’s time and it continues in ours.
Now can someone help me with a basic question? How do I quote with italics like some of you have done here?
<i> [text to be put in italics] </i>
For a linebreak: <BR>
For a new paragraph: <p>
For boldface: <b>[text]</b>
This can be helpful to set off long quotations:
<blockquote>
[text to be indented]</blockquote>
A lot of HTML tags work.
10-4. Totally agree. I will not attack him. He has his “opinion.” I have mine, however it seems I base mine on the Bible and he has this idea that only he and the mama church has the right answers. Sorry. I disagree with him. Mine is told to me by the Bible. GOD gave us Jesus. Not the mama church.
Serious question:
It seems to me that in more than one place Paul writes about different members of the body having different functions. When he asks “Are all teachers?” I think he expects the answer ‘no’.
So he is saying, I think, that not all have the charism of teaching, but some do. But if each one can get all he needs to know from Scripture, then what’s the place of teachers in the body?
And you have still not told me how I
“don’t understand”. Why not enlighten me? If you don’t, then you proved my point...you have nothing to add.
I said what I said and you didn’t get it, no point in repeating what I said, if you didn’t get it.....get it?
LOL, I got it alright.
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