Posted on 03/26/2013 8:02:07 PM PDT by ReformationFan
Again, where is the federalism? What happens when other circuit courts rule like the 9th?
[[and based on our conversations what I am getting is that you are demanding God do certain things for you]]
you are msitaken- I never demanded that- The whole premise of this conversation has to do with whether there has been discontinuity of the sueprnatural gifts that hte apostles had or not- If there has not, then surely we woudl be seeing TRUE SUPERNATURAL Miracles that defy natural laws beign performed still today- IF there has, then how much? Is God weakening? Or Is He Withholding soem of the gifts, or withholding part of the full power of the gifts?
[[Sorry it does not work that way, God is not a Genie]]
Never said He was a genie, nor that He acts like one, nor that that was how He works- please don’t put words in my mouth- seems everyoen discussing htis matter wants to speak for me-
[[I am sorry you are suffering, maybe you should just listen......be still and be with God whatever the answer is.]]
I’ not worried about me or my suffering- what is is- and that is that- God has ordained it- and that is that-
[[Sorry brother, God can and is willing to heal everyone with a breath but He does not heal everyone with a breath and there are reasons which I can not answer why.]]
I fully understand that, but that is not what the conversation was about, it was abotu whether or Not God is still performing TRUE sueprnatural miracles which defy the laws of nature today- I only explained my health situation to you to make the point that IF supernatural healings were beign doen today, my condition woudl be healed or at least a few of ht5e many 100’s of 1000’s of peopel in the same condition as mine woudl at least be healed sueprnaturally one woudl think- but that is not happening- the age of supernatural healings is over- there isn’t a healer today who could perform the healing through God simply because God is no logner doing such miraculous supernatural healings today- He however IS doing marvelous and wonderful healings that work within nature’s laws- but again these are NOT the same sueprnatural miracles that defied natural laws that He did htrough His apostles and Christ and prohpets etc-
I wish everyoen woudl stop sayign htigns for me- and just stick to the points beign broguht up- Are sueprnatural miracles which violate natural laws beign doen today? I think the evidnece is pretty clear that their has been a discontinuation of them whether God specifically said He woudl discontinue them or not- IF as soem claim they must still be happenign today simpyl becazuse God didn’t specifically state they woudl cease- then where is the evidnece that these sueprnatural miracles which vioalte natural laws are stiull occuring? I’m not askign God to do a performance for me- I’m askign for simpel evidnece that hte age of sueprnatural miracles which defy natural laws is stil alive and well today- I haven’t seen many ax heads floating on water lately
I am so sorry.
I have given you evidence, and you for reasons only known to you have decided not to accept it or dismissed it as “might have happened anyway”.
My heart weeps for you.
Good night, there is nothing I can say, nothing that I can show you will convince you otherwise,
Brother, live your life........I will live mine.
You are still in the hands of the Almighty God, I wish you were there in fullness but that dear brother is your choice.
[[I have given you evidence,]]
You have? I’ve asked repeatedly for evidnece which coudl not occure any other way but supernaturally in violation of atural laws- just liek htey used to do in the bible- As I said- Yes- there is ALWAYS that ‘coudl have happened naturally’ stigma associated with todays ‘miracle healings’ simpyl because there are NO TRUE supernatural miracles that violate the natural law beign doen today liek htey were beign doen repeatedly in the bible both in new testament and old so that noone coudl possibly confuse what they had just personallty witnessed- they didn’t have to rely on someone’s word, they saw these sueprnatural miracles which viollate nmatural laws occure right befgore their eyes- I made the Statement that these TRUE supernatural miracles that violate the natural law are not occurign today- folks chimed in and said essentailly ‘yes they are’ but hten not providign such evidnece- When the centurion’s ear was restored (Soem say the original word was not ear, but head), NOONE in the crowd coudl say “Ya know, that coudl have happened naturally” because there was NO way it coudl have occured naturally- none- Christ performed a TRUE supernatural miracle that violate the natural law when he restored the centurion’s ear/head whatever it was- on the other hand- You MUST cede that MANY people’s cancers do infact spontaniously go into remission- Right? Even paralysis can spontaniously go into remission unless the spinal chord has been severed (although new research is showing promissing results for regenetration of spinal chord with cell therapy- but that is still future)- IF a thing can go into remission spontaniously and naturally even IF doctors can’t explain how (Docs don’t know everything after all) then you must also ceede that a ‘healing’ of soemthign that could spontaniously go into remission is much different than a TRUE supernatural miracles that violate the natural law, right? And I nkow you and I beleive God can and does do very wodnerful things- but can you not see how an unbeleiver could look at soemthign that ‘could’ be a result of a natural process as beign less than the spectacular sueprnatural event/mitracles that were performed in the bible? The whole purpose of the TRUE supernatural miracles that violate the natural law i nthe bible were so that peopel could NOT claim somethign ‘might have happened naturally’ and that ONLY God/Christ/Apostles empowered by God could have performed such true unmistakeable miracles. Christ’s miracles were so Jewishly oriented, and so sueprnaturally miraculous, that NO Jew coudl honestly say “Well, pfff- that ‘could have happened’ naturally I suppose” Christ’s miracles were VERY specific and so entrenched in Jewish tradition and law that ONLY ther Son of God Himself coudl have pulled them off and the Jews knew this- and many beleived when they witnessed the unmistakeable sueprnatural power of the TRUE supernatural miracles that violate the natural law
There’s more to be aksed-written, but let’s just stick with thsoe for now- unless you’re tired of the conversation-
I provided the EXAMPLE of SCRIPTURE that said MIRACLES were to be in the church.
YOU wanted examples that miracles still occur.
Two different things.
You do admit that miracles USED to occur.
I agreed with you.
Whether or not they do occur NOW is not my concern.
My concern is where is the SCRIPTURE that says they shouldn't?
You assert that MIRACLES do NOT occur today - that is your point.
Mine is "Where's the SCRIPTURE?" that ends them.
AMEN!
Absolutely right!
John 10:38
But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.
John 10:31-33
31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
(They tried to change the subject as well...)
You are failing to see the implications of your argumenta. You are given miracles such as spinal cord regeneration and pseudoarthrosis but dismiss them as natural, yet raising souls from the dead is also explained away by skeptics today. Because souls believed Jesus miracles in His day, long before spontaneous regeneration, etc. was know, does not mean the skeptics of today cannot dismiss all of the miracles of Jesus, by rejecting the credibility, or explaining them away (mass hypnosis, natural healing ).
And which you do by implication with most of the Lord's miracles, by restricting "true miracles" to those which in your opinion cannot be explained away.
I’ve asked repetedly for evidence of TRUE SUPERNASTURAL Miraclesw which violate nature
And which again, eliminates most of the miracles of the Bible, while skeptics find ways to dismiss others.
[[calling all such liars or deceived souls.]] I did? Where?
Again, you fail to see the implications of your polemic. By dismissing the testimony of miracles then you are in essence calling them liars or deceived souls, as in your view these were not miracles.
[[refuse to allow any testimonies of the miraculous to be true,]] I’ve re3fused it? Really?
As just explained, and which extends to limiting miracles to a class which Scripture does not.
Your argument is that since you youself have not seen any miracles that fit your unScriptural definition of a "true miracle," then they do not exist.
The whole premsie of hte discussion started off by the claim that TRUE miracles haven’t ceased- I said TRUE SUPERNATURAL Miracles have ceased-
And which is an artificial unScriptural definition of a miracle. The Holy Spirit shows healings by Jesus as miracles but you exclude them, and skeptics dismiss the ones you qualify as real miracles.
pseudoarthrosis also can spontaniously heal naturally- Where are Delores’ medical records?
And where are the medical records of anyone healed in the Bible, which one can also dismiss as spontaneously healing. And then you ask where you have called those who give testimonies as lairs or deceived.
In other words- you’re NOT goign to provide exampels that peopel can witness where TRUE SUPERNATURAL MIRACLES occure? You’re just goign to ignore the plea and insult me? Why do I have to? Can you provide evidence that TRUER SUPERNATURAL Miracles which violate the laws of nature are occuring?
What am i gong to do?Why should i do more, since I provided a link to many, but which you evidently refuse to examine or blithely dismiss en toto, and I do not have the time to do more right now, and have made it obvious that you reject miracle todays by dismissing they type of miracles which the Bible calls miracles, while your extreme cessassionist view is not supported by Scripture.
[[and since in your isolated universe]] Are you a Christian? If so, Then why do you feel the need to be nasty when rersponding?
Again, this is the implication of your "i see nothing that fits my (not Scripture's) definition of a true miracles, therefore they do no exist" argument.
[[Yet there are multitudes today that have seen miracles in that leave no doubt in their mind,]] Really? They must all be rushign to Randi the great for the ten million dollar reward then because htey have irrefutable proof just like htey had in CHrist’s time...
That is what is "nasty," as you simply reject this since you are ignorant of any, while the the "irrefutable proof" does not exist for a committed skeptic, who also rejects the miracles of Jesus. "And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. " (Luke 16:31)
More later when i get back.
I am very sorry for you.
Your claim is that supernatural miracles are not happening today, when one tells you they are with examples you dismiss them, “as would/could happened anyway”.
Personally, I believe that more supernatural miracles would happen if only people were willing to accepted them.
Thanks. You linked to CottShop’s post, while i do not see where i was making it person apart from describing the manner of argumentation (”you see,” etc) he evidences. But i will try to be careful.
Thus you eliminate the majority of miracles, those of healing and deliverance, and intervention, and while the failure of the apostles to do all the same "true miracles" the Lord did (feeding thousands, raising a man in the grave for 4 days, etc.) must mean miracles ceased in that age.
Likewise in Acts we a decreasing record of such, but which is not to be mistaken to mean they ceased]] Really? Acts 5:16 Crowds gathered also from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing their sick and those tormented by impure spirits, and all of them were healed.
Yes, really, as Acts has 28 chapters, and the record decreases, and according to you, healing is not a "true miracle," so even this does not prove miracles were being done.
But when UI read God’s word and See that Jesus restored a Centurion’s ear in an instant...Let’s start with somethign small- a missing toe beign replaced at a healing meeting with nothign but a preacher saying “Take off your shoe and sock and witness your new toe”
And no where do we see this after the resurrection of Christ either. Or walking on water, turning water into wine, casting demons into pigs, calming a storm, etc, while others can be explained away by committed souls, and today there are testimonies of supernatural judgment, etc.
[[You only see what you want to see, and dismiss or explain away what you do not.]] Sigh- So show me the TRUE SUPERNATURAL Miracles which violate natural laws and which can NOT be explained naturally or in any way except for beign supernaturally achieved- The claim was that miracles did not cease I stated that TRUE SUPERNATURAL MIRACLES Which violate nature have infact ceased- peopel like yourself jumped all over me for makign that statement-
What you said was "The age or TRUE miracles is over" and you unScripturally defined TRUE miracles as "supernaturally restoring life at a command, restorign limbs, eyesight etc- these type miracles," thus contradicting the Holy Spirit in which the majority of miracles of a class (healing, deliverance, etc.) you reject as being "true miracles,"
I asked for proof that htey still occure today- and have yet to see anyoen here provide such proof- ALL I’ve seen presented are cases which ‘COULD BE EXPLAINED’ via natural means- AGAIN- the TRUE SUPERNATURAL MIRACLES of biblical times could NOT be explaiend that way
They are indeed explained away today, as even the most overt miracle can be "explained" away by skeptics as mass hypnosis, coincidence, etc. but as you dismiss all claims of miraculous healing today.
TRUE miracles are not happenign today [but will again one day])
I am tired of your unScriptural idea that miracles wouls cease, and of your unScriptural definition of a miracle, which explains away most of what Scripture calls miracles, while imagining skeptics cannot explain away what few miracles you allow to be miracles. The glad and gracious reality is that God is still doing miracles, whether you believe them or not.
Here is a testimony of a miracle you may find a way to dismiss (yet note that the healings the Bible calls miracles were not documented by xrays, etc), that of "more than half of my baby’s brain was missing.”
“I was expecting my fourth child. That day, I had gone to have an ultrasound, because at eight months, the baby still was not moving around, and seemed unusually small. However, I did not really suspect that anything serious was wrong with the baby. You can imagine the feeling I had when they looked worried and wanted to do a second ultrasound. At the end of the second ultrasound, the doctor took a deep breath and started struggling for words. Finally he said, ‘Well, your baby has eyes, a nose and a mouth…’
“The doctor explained it to me as kindly as he could, saying, “I’m so sorry, Gary. Your baby has had an intrauterine stroke. The entire left hemisphere of her brain is gone. All that is left is a large cyst filled with fluid and some stray bits of tissue. She will probably die at birth. If she lives, she will be severely retarded and paralyzed on one side of her body...“Although I did not believe in abortion, I was a medical doctor. I knew that the personal consequences of bringing such a damaged child into the world would be intense...
“Marie and I began an intense search for God’s plan to save our daughter’s life. We read the Bible day and night. We read books and listened to audio tapes about healing, trying to learn whatever we could. One teacher in particular talked about speaking Bible verses into bad situations....
“We pulled ourselves together and determined to stand on God’s word and not be afraid. We determined that if we had to stand for 6 trillion years and tell the devil that our baby was healed, then that’s what we would do...” ~
Gary and Marie met in the hallway of their home. Marie describes what happened next: “After a few words, Gary laid his hand on my tummy and prayed and at first, nothing happened. Gary refused to accept this disappointment and tried to pray again, and still nothing happened. Finally on the third time, he laid his other hand on top of my head, and this time, a surge of power came out of his hands and went into the baby and me.”
Gary said, “As soon as I put my hand on Marie’s head, I felt a surge of pure love that physically knocked me to the ground on my knees, overwhelmingly aware of God’s awesome holiness. I spoke to God and said, ‘Lord, You are so infinitely and absolutely pure. I am not worthy of your presence.’ I forgot about everything except this awesome presence for a long time...”
“Complete testing was performed both at the time of her birth and some months later. The testing showed no disability of any kind.” Photographs on page x show a picture of Carolyn at birth and as a young, healthy child." Here is another,
When Roy Davidson was only 31, his doctor told him he had the worst case of multiple bleeding ulcers he’d ever seen. After a specialist’s examination, it was clear that surgery was not an option. The ulcers were so severe that removing them would cause extensive damage. And there would always be scar tissue even if medicine could heal the ulcers...
“I remember lying there and these guys walked in to pray for me. ‘God, I’m just going to listen to this to see if there is anything to it.’ And the guy walks in the room with an empty bottle of Mazola oil. I thought, ‘Oh, good grief! This is the crowning insult. They’re going to anoint me with cooking oil!’”
The pastor applied a touch of oil to Roy’s forehead. That single action was a turning point in his life.
“The whole room started spinning, I started getting real dizzy, and I couldn’t see a thing,” he says. “I could hear them. They were all praying in tongues. Then all of a sudden I saw myself way up in the corner of the room. I’m looking down and I’m lying on an Army cot. It was like they call those ‘out-of-body experiences. ’
Roy woke up hours later and realized the pain was gone.
“My stomach, it felt funny but it didn’t hurt. I noticed I didn’t have any bleeding that day and I wasn’t having any pain, really. It was kind of gone,” he remarks.
Roy’s specialist took another look at Roy’s stomach and confirmed that the multiple bleeding ulcers were gone.
“I was quite surprised to find there was nothing there,” says Dr. John Eckrich. “I mean, it basically looked normal. What I thought was strange and still do, I really didn’t even find some of the scar tissue which had previously been there.”
All to the glory of God, but of course, these cannot be allowed to be a miracle by some who rob Him of glory by unScriptural doctrines.
bflr
[[I am very sorry for you.
Your claim is that supernatural miracles are not happening today, when one tells you they are with examples you dismiss them,]]
Yes yes, you’re always sorry for thsoe that don’t beleive what You do- We’ve established that already-
Now- who has supplied exampels of supernatural miracles that violate natural law? I’ll ask one last time- Where are the supernatural that are restoring lostl imbs? Lost organs? I keep hearign supernatural miracles are ‘all around us’ and keep gettign accused of ‘not believing’ but I’ve yet to see anyone present exampels of TRUE superntural miracles that violate natural law- Seems everyoen is content ignoring that request, and more intent on feelign sorry for me-
[[as you simply reject this since you are ignorant of any, while the the “irrefutable proof” does not exist for a committed skeptic, who also rejects the miracles of Jesus.]]
Hmmmm- I’ve ‘committed to skepticism’ eh? I also reject that Jesus did miracles eh?
[[You are failing to see the implications of your argumenta.]]
I see it quite clearly- I also see everyone skirtting all aroudn my plea to provide examples of true supernatural miracles that violate natural law liek Christ and the Apostles and earlier prophets did-
[[You are given miracles such as spinal cord regeneration and pseudoarthrosis but dismiss them as natural,]]
Um- that is because they CAN occure naturally- Restoring limbs and organs and walkign on water etc can NOT happen naturally- Again I’ll ask for examples of true supernatural miracles that violate natural law and I’ll also ask you to provide the medical evidence that proved that fella was permanently paralyzed- He certainly never provded any such evidence, and ocne again we’re left to doubt- which was NOT the case in biblical times when true supernatural miracles that violate natural law were performed-
[[Because souls believed Jesus miracles in His day, long before spontaneous regeneration, etc. was know, does not mean the skeptics of today cannot dismiss all of the miracles of Jesus, by rejecting the credibility, or explaining them away]]
You seem to be goign a very long way out of your way avoiding my pleas for exampels of Because souls believed Jesus miracles in His day, long before spontaneous regeneration, etc. was know, does not mean the skeptics of today cannot dismiss all of the miracles of Jesus, by rejecting the credibility, or explaining them away
I’ll make it simpler- show me an example- just one example of a healer today restorign even a simple lost digit such as a finger- Show me the signs and wonders such as walkign on water- supernaturally beign transported long distances to witness to a person etc etc etc that occured as a result of early church special supernatural empowerment-
[[And which again, eliminates most of the miracles of the Bible, while skeptics find ways to dismiss others.]]
Pssst- you’re still skirtign my request-
[[Your argument is that since you youself have not seen any miracles that fit your unScriptural definition of a “true miracle,”]]
Now it’s an ‘unscriptural definition of miracles’? Can you point me to the scripture that says that? The bible said the apostles were endowed with supernatural power to perform signs and wodners, and the bible recounts how the apostles did great supernatural miracles which violated nature many many times- Yuo claim these miracles are still occurign today- I’ve asked you many times now to provide exampels- and still you don’t- Can you or can you not provide exampels of supernatural miracles that violate natural law? Can you or can you not provide exampels of peopel havign hteir missing limbs restored? Adn where are the signs and wodners beign doen by healrs today? Or are their signs nd wodners also watered down too?
[[What am i gong to do?Why should i do more, since I provided a link to many, but which you evidently refuse to examine or blithely dismiss en toto,]]
no you didn’t- I didn’t see or hear one single thing o nthat site that showed a healer restoring a missing limb or organ-
.....”I also see everyone skirtting all aroudn my plea to provide examples of true supernatural miracles that violate natural law.”.......
Two: Creation of the Universe and Christ’s Resurrection...both are undeniable.
Yuo know what? I’ts obvious you are not goign to provide evidence of true supernatural miracles which violate natural law such as restoration ofl ost limbs, lost organs etc- and until you can do so, I stand by my claim- If you want to keep putting words in my mouthj- speakign for me, avoiding he plea- skirtting hte plea- then whatever- When you have evidence that healers are restorign lostl imbs and organs and digits etc- or raisign hte dead, or walkign on water or able to control the weather with a command- please let me know- Until then I’m content knowing God can and does use natural means to heal peopel today, but that the age of aupernatural miracles which violate natural law is over because there is no evidence of the actual supernatural miracles I have repeatedly asked for beign presented here- If you think this makes me a poor soul to be pitied and prayed for, then whatever- Yuo still haven’t provided what I’ve asked for- You’ve only presented cases that are NOT beyond the realm of possibilitty for havign happened via natural means and don’t even come close to beign so beyon the realm of natural means that they MUST be called supernatural miracles which violate natural law- Show me htem issing digit beign spoken into existence by a healer and I’ll gladly cede to you that peopel who call themselves healers today are still able to do the signs and wonders and sueprnatural miracles that violate natural law that the prophets, Chrsit, and hte apostles did- If you’re not goign to provide that and simply keep tryign to brush the request aside by claiming it is ‘unscriptural definition of the supernatural miracles’ that hte apostles did- then there’s really no point in continuing thsi discussion- It’s obvious that so called healers of today are NOT capable doing the supernatural miracles that the apostles and prophets and Christ did- otherwise you coudl easily point me to medically verified cases all over the owrld of such supernatural miracles-
[[All to the glory of God, but of course, these cannot be allowed to be a miracle by some who rob Him of glory by unScriptural doctrines.]]
I’m robbign Him of glory because you refuse to provide what I’ve asked for? Wow! That’s soem twisted logic-
God is not prohibited from taking action in the world if He so desires.
Louis Berkhof put it this way....”Laws of nature are “God's usual method of working in nature.... It is His good pleasure to work in an orderly way and through secondary causes.... But this does not mean that He cannot depart from the established order, and cannot produce an extraordinary effect, which does not result from natural causes, by a single volition, if He deems it desirable for the end in view.... When God works miracles, He produces extraordinary effects in a supernatural way.”
“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth”... this verse immediately establishes that an infinite and all-powerful God brought the universe into being out of nothing and that He is thus sovereign over it.
If God has the capability of calling the universe into being out of nothing,.... then such things as turning water into wine, walking on water, and raising people from the dead are not only possible but expected.
As Norman Geisler put it this way...”If there is a God who can ACT, then there can be ACTS OF GOD. The only way to show that miracles are impossible is to disprove the existence of God... And that is something that cannot be done!
[[Two: Creation of the Universe and Christ’s Resurrection...both are undeniable.]]
I think you’ve missed the crux of the conversation- I know God created everythign- I also know Christ performed many many supernatural miracles which violate natural law- I wasn’t askign for biblical exampels of supernatural miracles which violate natural law, but of modern day supernatural miracles which violate natural law because it was claiemd that these supernatural miracles still occure today and that the power of the apostles was still available to anyoen today (apparently if they just beleive hard enough)-
Anyways- I fully accept aLll them iracles supernatural miracles which violate natural law for they were idneed supernatural miracles which violate natural law- what I don’t accept is that supernatural miracles which violate natural law are occurign today because htere is no evidence of it- Whiel it is true God still heals today- He does so through means which obey natural law and are within the realm of havign occured naturally, facilitated by His prompting-
[[God is not prohibited from taking action in the world if He so desires.]]
I never claiemd that He was- please don’t you also start puttign words in my mouth too-
[[Laws of nature are “God’s usual method of working in nature.... ]]
Yup-
[[But this does not mean that He cannot depart from the established order, and cannot produce an extraordinary effect, which does not result from natural causes, by a single volition,]]
I never once claimed He couldn’t- I fully beleive He could perform supernatural miracles which violate nature anytime He wishes- but it is quite obvious from a compelte lack of evidence for supernatural miracles which violate nature that He simply doesn’t wish to at this point and time
[[If God has the capability of calling the universe into being out of nothing,.... then such things as turning water into wine, walking on water, and raising people from the dead are not only possible but expected.]]
All true- but again- You’ve missed the point of the discussion- Whiel He can and has in the past- He is not doign so today through His speakers/preachers/pastors etc- I’ll ask you to- If you have evidence that He is still performing supernatural miracles which violate nature such as the things youl isted, or such as restorign lost limbs, lost organs, etc- I’ll be more than happy to cede that I am wrogn and that God is ifnact still performing htese supernatural miracles which violate nature today-
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