Posted on 02/07/2013 12:06:49 PM PST by Alex Murphy
While in college, after once arguing until 3:00 with a Calvinist, both of us honestly using scripture to support our point of view, I came to the conclusion that I would never embark on that discussion again. Something was wrong.
After study quantum mechanics, I came to the conclusion that what was wrong was a form of “indeterminacy,” an inability to process the true state of things, because we see in three dimensions. An electron is a particle if tested for particularity and a wave if tested for waveness.
When tested from God’s point of view, it’s 100% election. Tested from man’s point of view, it’s 100% free choice.
So, I assume election is true and free choice is true, and the contradiction bothers me no more than an apparently self-contradictory theory which attempts to model reality.
And, BTW, God isn’t telling me whom is predestined. To try to guess is hubris.
Thank you for your replies. But I think you missed the larger point that there is no dichotomy between salvation by election and salvation by grace through faith.
So yeah - your objection noted, we stand on the Irresistible Grace principle.
Probably the toughest thing for us to explain is that 'free will' bit. I don't have a good answer for that except to say that I feel like I could have rejected Christ, but also had felt drawn, and am pleased (of course) to have accepted.
Clearly, we believe there are times and places in which people are steered directly by God (the scripture writers, for instance, were 'God Inspired'). Pharoah's heart was hardened in Exod. 7:13. But I see no scripture declaring that God orchestrates and directs the minds and actions of all men. To the contrary, if man is being controlled, then how could we all possibly be "without excuse" before Him (Rom. 1:20)? We would be able to say we were controlled! So either that verse is false, or we do indeed have free will.
Hmmmm - guess He gave me those words to write... or did He?
And, BTW, God isn’t telling me whom is predestined. To try to guess is hubris.
And that is why we need to spread the Word to everyone, since we don't know the elect (but God does...).
Define "election" as used in the sentence above, please. Knowledge or active decision?
That is only your personal point of view, not all men.
Many people know they are unable to choose salvation; they believe it's 100% election (or God's sovereignty) by which they became part of the family of God.
John 6:63 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.”
John 6:64 “But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
John 6:65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”
John 15:16 “You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.”
Limited Atonement - arrived at by reasoning backwards. Rejected. Hey, no one gets it all right...
1. Most of its subscribers I have encountered on a discussion basis have been pompous, arrogant, jerks who think they have God figured out. I have no doubt that there are fine Calvinists out there who do not take such an approach -— and most certainly those on FR would be some of the finest.
2. Calvinism is a man-developed system of beliefs that Calvinists use as a filter or mold into which scripture is to fit.
3. I have a very hard time believing that a significant portion of the earth’s population from the beginning of time to the end of time will have been born, lived their lives, and died into eternal damnation NEVER HAVING ANY CHANCE WHATSOEVER because they were not part of the pre-determined, elected, privileged class.
I’d much rather see Christians take a “let Sciprture speak for Scripture by the power of the Holy Spirit” approach to the Living Word, rather than parsing, dicing, slicing, twisting, and weaving God’s Word into a set of beliefs that are, in reality, a component of the mysteries that our Heavenly Father has not revealed to us.
I have many of the same concerns with hard core Arminians.
Here’s the reality: when it all ends and you, I, or any other person who has been washed by the sacrificial blood of the Lamb and are standing in God’s presence in Paradise, the absolute LAST thing on our mind will be whether Calvinism or Arminianism or any other man-made theological theory was right or wrong.
Titus 2:11
When tested from God’s point of view, it’s 100% election. Tested from man’s point of view, it’s 100% free choice.
So, I assume election is true and free choice is true, and the contradiction bothers me no more than an apparently self-contradictory theory which attempts to model reality.
I think you're on to something!
And, BTW, God isn’t telling me whom is predestined. To try to guess is hubris.
Much agreed.
The same could be said of Arminians, Catholics, Mormons, atheists, etc. Many who respond to these threads think they have "God figured out".
2. Calvinism is a man-developed system of beliefs that Calvinists use as a filter or mold into which scripture is to fit.
And so are the Five Articles of Remonstrance that Calvinism attempts to refute. In fact, any discussion short of reading the Bible and not saying anything else is man-developed. Does it mean that it is right? Only as far as it faithfully represents the Word of God.
3. I have a very hard time believing that a significant portion of the earth’s population from the beginning of time to the end of time will have been born, lived their lives, and died into eternal damnation NEVER HAVING ANY CHANCE WHATSOEVER because they were not part of the pre-determined, elected, privileged class.
As a Calvinist, I have trouble with that as well, but Romans 9 clearly points out that some vessels were made for honor and some for dishonor. I can not argue with the Potter.
Here’s the reality: when it all ends and you, I, or any other person who has been washed by the sacrificial blood of the Lamb and are standing in God’s presence in Paradise, the absolute LAST thing on our mind will be whether Calvinism or Arminianism or any other man-made theological theory was right or wrong.
Amen. Grace and peace.
Election = God chooses and opens hearts. But he does it from a dimension, such that it is ridiculous to try to guess or explain.
Titus 1:1 "Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God ..."
You didn’t read my post very carefully, did you?
Sorry, my other response was a bit flippant. I believe with all my heart that God chose me and knew me. The Bible tells me so.
I can only look in reverse, however. From my side of the veil, I know it is true because of the choice I made.
It is ultimately irrelevant to talk about God’s election, other than as a theoretical curiosity, since we have absolutely no way to know other than by running a test from our side of the veil.
Man-developed? Guilty.
Mold into which scripture is to fit? Not guilty... in fact, it's an attempt to explain a bunch of scriptures that the opposing views tend to ignore (post #46 included, btw). With that, I mean the passages - a lot of them in context, not just a single word or phrase - that identify words such as 'elect' and 'predestination'.
Point #3? Already covered above.
You are free to allow this to pass - nothing said in this thread should be any threat to salvation... I believe there's agreement on that. I subscribe to this Reformed tradition for one reason: I believe it gives God the most credit for the work he's done - and continues to do - with His creation. It means He's firmly in control - which is exactly the way it should be. But I do believe it allows scripture to hang together better than other philosophies I've investigated (I was originally an arminian baptist)...and that enriches my owbn study and worship.
But you're right: when we stand before the Judgment Seat, we aren't gonna be asked if we're Baptist, Methodist, Calvinist, Lutheran, Catholic, or whatever. Fortunately, Christ will claim that I'm covered by Him so that I won't have to say a word.
Hence my post #6. You choose the passage that agrees with you, rather than trying to read the whole message.
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