Posted on 02/07/2013 12:06:49 PM PST by Alex Murphy
Part of our problem is we are trapped on the conveyor belt of time and God isn't. Our minds cannot even conceive of what it means to exist outside of time.
But God IS "empowered" and He gives to ALL the answer!
They ONLY have to make ONE choice between LIFE and DEATH. And guess what? God TELLS them the answer! God is good to ALL for He died for ALL and wants ALL to be saved unto HIM!
"This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you LIFE and DEATH, blessings and curses. NOW CHOOSE LIFE, so that you and your children may live".
Jesus is The Way, The Truth, The LIFE!
Actually, the verse is "no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." And no one can pluck us out of His hand. We can, however, choose to reject God.
Your interpretation goes to one extreme and, again, leaves us with no responsibility at all. However we get to this point, we can know that somewhere we made a wrong turn.
I agree. They can’t imagine what God did for us 2000 can still be in effect for us/them now and those after us. Yet, they call Him The Almighty - are those just words to them?
He created the earth Way before that and we have NO PROBLEM enjoying it - geez, even taking it for granted.
Do we think with every breathe, ‘I hope I have air for the next breathe’ or even think of air that we CAN’T SEE?
I agree. But we do grow into the knowledge that is Jesus Christ. In fact, we must grow - from baby to mature - and that happens only through His Word alone.
"Rather, you must grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. All glory to HIM, both now and forever! Amen." 2 Peter 3:18
I'm just finding out what it is and posting Scripture. So it is Scripture that doesn't agree with it.
At last! We have found something we both agree on.
:)
No sir, it does not, but rather points towards the ill-applied descriptions on either side of the fulcrum as they are incomplete on both sides of the balancing point upon which they are weighed, one against the other.
You have election>salvation and supported the doctrine of salvation by election.
And the problem with this is...? What? It doesn't give man enough credit when he hears God and believes, thus earning (in part) salvation, when we can see from the beginning of the Judeo-Christian construct that righteousness was said to be "credited" to Abram not of or by his own get-go.
Christ is the author and finisher of faith (belief) not we as man filling in the blanks. No, whenever the latter (man scribbling in that context) can be seen to have occurred, there is sin as result.
On the other hand, in objections to Calvinist views, there seems to be need for strenuous emphasis acknowledging man be part of his own condemnation, when all along (at least since the fall of Adam) man was dead already.
Jesus was not sent to the world to condemn the world...for it was condemned already. THIS is significant. What choice can a dead man have(?) I ask you. Is not the answer painfully obvious? Does man answer God from his own grave? Or is it life sourced from the beginning from the Creator Himself which answers? We, being formed but of the dust of the earth, are not "life" any more than the dust is.
No one. Not even oneself.
One's faith is fickle. You can choose right one day, but the next you will not. There's no way this kind of faith is able to save. It's only faith given by God which can save.
Yes, you do have a responsibility to honor God by walking with Him. If you do not, He will discipline you. You can be a bad child; but you are a child nonetheless. Like the earthly family, once you are a part of a family you are included whether you like it or not.
And the problem with this is...?
It ain't the same doctrine as salvation by grace through faith. That is my point. Non-Calvinist have a completely different interpretation and doctrine that Calvinist double predestination.
It doesn't give man enough credit when he hears God and believes..
It removes man entirely from the equation. It's an extreme position that ends in a false view of God and man and their relationship. There can be no relationship with man as derived from Calvinism.
This is contrary to the whole sense of Holy Scripture including Jesus's ministry.
However you get to this end, you made a wrong term somewhere. Non-Calvinist wisely avoid it.
OK. To get to the crux of the matter, I have some questions:
Does God save man, or does man save himself?
If God saves man, how is it done?
If man chooses God, then is not man that saves himself, and not God, but God merely offering an opportunity to be saved? And does God know who will choose him?
Where in scripture is complete free will of man shown?
Is this complete free will subservient to the will of God?
Is this free will in bondage to man’s sinful nature, or can man overcome this sinful nature on his own to seek repentance?
Does the Bible show that God chooses one man over another?
I believe if you meditate on the Scriptures already given to you, you will have the answers to your questions.
I believe this debate has been done before, and each knows the others position, text proofs etc. My main point is that it is quite different and results in quite different views on salvation, God and man.
In general as it relates to our discussion, Calvinism goes to an extreme - no man, all God. Whereas the rest of Christian doctrine has much more of a relationship between God and man.
I have read the Scriptures and come to a different conclusion than yours. I would like you to give a defense for your conclusions.
Luk_18:42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.
He gives us sight and faith. Our faith saves us.
Where in scripture is complete free will of man shown? Is this complete free will subservient to the will of God?
Get ready for a class in philosophy.
Does the Bible show that God chooses one man over another?
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh_15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
Rom 9:13-15 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Yes, dueling verses is what it usually devolves to. It’s why proof texting is a poor method.
You say that, but from my experience, most non-Calvinist go to the other extreme: Man is in control, as he makes the decision.
This has been a very interesting thread to me. The predestination issue always seemed straight forward.
IMHO, Scripture is clear that we are saved by Grace through Faith and that even the faith we have is a product of Grace, but Grace that is freely available to "whosoever will". When we accept Christ, our faith grows or as Scripture says, in some cases a person believes for a time but when tempted falls away. Christ knows who will and won't accept as well as whether or not they will fall away. Scripture makes it clear, "whosoever will", therefore to me election means something different than Calvin thought it did and built his doctrine around.
Maybe people who enlisted in and served in the military see the question of predestination differently, but it's no problem at all if you've ever been the property of the USMC. Prior to enlisting, you're your own man, making your own decisions, including whether or not to enlist. Once you enlist and finish boot camp (i.e. do not fall away), though, you no longer belong to yourself except in the very limited sense that you can complain about what you will do because you have been ordered to do it. You will not refuse to do it. You will not decide when to do it. You will not decide how to do it. You are predestined to serve the purposes of the USMC and only their purposes with everything else in you life being shaped around the USMC.
It doesn't seem all that complicated to me, whosoever will may come and accept the gift of Salvation through Grace. Election relates to Christ having a plan to use those who do accept to best advantage once we have accepted. From the point of our irrevocable acceptance we are an integral part of Christ's plans from that point forward. Those who fall away may be used for a time, but they are not integrated into his plan the way a Que stick is integrated into a game of pool. Like those who never accept, they're bumpers, not pool balls or a Que the master uses to make a shot. By by definition, being incorporated into His plans as an instrument of His will rather than our own will is election. Until we accept Christ, we do not have the privilege being one of the tools He uses to bring others to the point that they accept His Grace.
I think the privilege of playing a role in His bringing as many as possible to Salvation from the time we irrevocably surrender to Him forward is what election relates to. I don't think it has anything to do with whether or not we accept His Grace. Once we accept and surrender to Him, though, we are predestined to be in the right places at the right times in spite of ourselves because we are no longer our own, but His.
That would be an error in the other extreme. "God is omnipotent; He created man with free will" is I think the starting point. There is a great deal of possibility for paradox and veering one way or the other within this, but IMHO, it's ending up at one extreme or the other that lets you know you have built upon an error somewhere.
Thanks very much for your reply..
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