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Eternal progression after death is fun speculation for Mormons
Ogden Standard-Examiner ^ | Oct. 15, 2012 | Doug Gibson

Posted on 11/15/2012 4:33:43 PM PST by Colofornian

(To see Cal Grondahl’s cartoon that goes with this post, click here) A key difference between Latter-day Saints and many other Christian churches is that Mormons believe that there are various post-judgment kingdoms in the outskirts of heaven. There’s the Telestial Kingdom, for anyone from Hitler to that lawyer who’s cheating on his wife. There’s the Terrestrial Kingdom, for those decent folks who said “not now” when the missionaries came by the door. And then there’s the Celestial Kingdom, the jackpot prize.

But even the Celestial Kingdom comes in degrees. According to Joseph Smith, there are three degrees of glory in the Celestial Kingdom. So there’s the big leagues, triple-AAA ball, and AA ball in the Celestial Kingdom. The Terrestrial Kingdom is eternal single-A ball while Telestial Kingdom folks are damned to the rookie leagues forever.

And there’s a reason I say leagues, because Mormon pop theology also flirts with the idea of progression within the lesser kingdoms … and even from kingdom to kingdom.

I refer to one of the more obscure B.H. Roberts’ books, ”Outlines of Ecclesiastical History,” first written in 1893, but my edition is from 1927. The copy I have was used by an LDS missionary of that era. Roberts was one of the “progressive model” Mormon leaders of the first half of the 20th century. He favored a more expansive interpretation of Mormon doctrine. It was a doctrinal battle that Roberts and others would eventually lose, mostly snuffed out by Joseph Fielding Smith and the rise of ultra-conservative church leaders.

Anyway, Roberts, on page 416, parts 19 and 20 of The Restoration of the Gospel section, writes:

“The question of advancement within the great divisions of glory celestial, terrestrial, and telestial; as also the question of advancement from one sphere of glory to another remains to be considered. In the revelation from which we have summarized what has been written here, in respect to the different degrees of glory, it is said that those of the terrestrial glory will be ministered unto by those of the celestial; and those of the telestial will be ministered unto by those of the terrestrial — that is, those of the higher glory minister to those of a lesser glory. We can conceive of no reason for all this administration of the higher to the lower, unless it be for the purpose of advancing our Father’s children along the lines of eternal progression. Whether or not in the great future, full of so many possibilities now hidden from us, they of the lesser glories after education and advancement within those spheres may at last emerge from them and make their way to the higher degrees of glory until at last they attain to the highest, is not revealed in the revelations of God, and any statement made on the subject must partake more or less of the nature of conjecture.

20. But if it be granted that such a thing is possible, they who at the first entered into the celestial glory — having before them the privilege also of eternal progress — have been moving onward, so that the relative distance between them and those who have fought their way up from the lesser glories, may be as great when the latter have come into the degrees of celestial glory in which the righteous at first stood, as it was at the commencement: and thus between them is an impassable gulf which time cannot destroy. Thus: those whose faith and works are such only as to entitle them to inherit a telestial glory, may arrive at last where those whose works in this life were such as to entitle them to entrance into the celestial kingdom – they may arrive where these were, but never where they are.”

Now here is where things get really interesting. I went to an online archive of Roberts’ 1893 book for the last quote. And “… where they are” is where section 20 ends. However, if I go to the 1927 edition of “Outlines of Ecclesiastical History,” which I am holding in my hands, Roberts continues with this fascinating “conjecture”:

“But if it be granted that the chief fact about Intelligences is that they have power to add fact to fact and thus build up knowledge, and through knowledge have wisdom, and thus make progress; and if to such intelligence there is granted eternal life — immortality — then it is useless to postulate any limitations for them; for in the passing of even a few thousands of millions of years, even if progress be very slow — there will come a time when these intelligences — men and women of even the telestial glory — may become very acceptable characters, and very important personages.”

This is radical doctrine, and exciting to read. It brings Mormonism back to its most progressive roots. But, today, web searches include only the 1893 edition. Roberts’ speculation from 1927 is not there.

And since 1927, the idea of eternal progression toward exaltation has became a pariah. I came of age as a young Mormon in the 1970s and I recall more than one teacher telling classes that the idea that you could progress from any of the lower kingdoms to exaltation was damnable to consider. In fact, I recall teachers citing Bruce R. McConkie, who described the idea as one of the “Seven Deadly Heresies.” (here)

What is included in Roberts’ 1927 version was part of Mormonism’s move to more speculation of doctrine, more discussion. It was not to last, though. I have no idea of if the propensity to seeing the 1893 version of “Outlines …” online is due to disapproval of the 1927 edition, but I would not be surprised.

Today, if you go to the LDS apologetics group FARMS’ internal Wiki page on eternal progression between the three kingdoms, you get an odd non-answer that translated, more or less reads, there is no official church position on this, but it probably isn’t true.

Going back to Roberts’ book, section 7, page 408, of The Restoration of the Gospel,” he writes:

“Naturally the question arises why was the gospel preached to the spirits in prison who had once been disobedient if there were no means by which it could be applied to them for their salvation. We can scarcely suppose that Messiah would preach the gospel to them if it could do them no good. He did not go there to mock their sufferings or to add something to the torture of their damnation by explaining the beauties of that salvation now forever beyond their reach! Such a supposition would at once be revolting to reason, insulting to the justice of God, and utterly repugnant to the dictates of mercy!”

That part of Roberts’ teachings remains Mormon doctrine. It’s a reminder that the LDS belief that God does not have a “line” that divides all in a “heaven” and “hell” is still evidence of the faith’s exciting, progressive roots.

So, despite the JFS and BRM efforts to make progression within kingdoms a “sin” to speculate about, we Mormons do still wonder about these issues, and even discuss them among ourselves from time to time. (To read a fascinating article on Roberts’ and others debates within the LDS leadership over doctrine, go here).


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Eastern Religions; Evangelical Christian; History; Mainline Protestant; Ministry/Outreach; Other Christian; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: afterlife; antichristian; celestialkingdom; inman; lds; mormon
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NOTE: Doug Gibson who wrote this is Mormon.

From the article: A key difference between Latter-day Saints and many other Christian churches is that Mormons believe that there are various post-judgment kingdoms in the outskirts of heaven. There’s the Telestial Kingdom, for anyone from Hitler to that lawyer who’s cheating on his wife. There’s the Terrestrial Kingdom, for those decent folks who said “not now” when the missionaries came by the door. And then there’s the Celestial Kingdom, the jackpot prize.

IOW, since few go into eternal "outer darkness" in Mormonism's view (Lds don't teach hell is eternal), even Hitler can be necro-baptized into salvation!

A key Mormon phrase for as you read this is the non-scriptural term, "eternal progression." The idea for temple Mormons is that you eternally progress from a "god in embryo" to a full-blown "god" who competes with THE God for glory, worship, praise, reception of prayers, planetary sovereignty, etc.

From Gibson's citation of Lds "70" (a general authority) B.H. Roberts: ...so that the relative distance between them and those who have fought their way up from the lesser glories...Thus: those whose faith and works are such only as to ENTITLE them to inherit a telestial glory, may arrive at last where those whose works in this life were such as to ENTITLE them to entrance into the celestial kingdom...

Well, there ya have it...Your ultimate place in the afterlife is dependent not so much upon God's grace and mercy, as the Bible elaborates in detail, but your "fighting" abilities...and your works-righteousness entitlements -- all based upon some sort of divine "grade" given.

'Tis NOT the Christian gospel at all!

1 posted on 11/15/2012 4:33:54 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: All

THE TOP TEN MOST SURPRISING 'MORMON TEACHINGS' ABOUT MORMON HEAVEN and AFTER-LIFE

Posted here as a thread: THE TOP TEN MOST SURPRISING 'MORMON TEACHINGS' ABOUT MORMON HEAVEN and AFTER-LIFE [Vanity]

What's especially relevant to THIS thread are the 1st, 4th and 5th items I listed at the above link...

And the key one is thing: Mormonism teaches the ONLY temple Mormons (about 15-20% of all LDS) get to live forever in the presence of Heavenly Father.

If you're single, too bad. Even Lds & single! If you're NOT a temple Mormon, too bad.

What Lds don't seem to understand is, if Heavenly Father isn't there -- it isn't heaven!

They somehow think that a Fatherless 'heaven' is heaven!

5. "Eternal life" is redefined to be an exclusive term that applies to temple Mormons ONLY! "Eternal life" is thus reserved for legalistically abiding Mormons ONLY. "Eternal life" does NOT = ALL living forever with Heavenly Father; 'tis ONLY applies for those who EARN exaltation...and "exaltation" is a Mormon by-word for becoming a god!Hence, to the Mormon, resurrection alone does not = eternal life. Yes, Mormons believe that just about all people become immortal due to the resurrection. But "eternal life" is ONLY for those who live in the presence of Heavenly Father -- and become "gods" themselves (what Mormons call "exaltation"...To Mormons, "exaltation" and "eternal life" are interchangeable terms...but "eternal life" and heaven-as-a-residence for non-Mormons are not interchangeable terms..."eternal life" is ONLY for Mormons! * Eternal life is a term which always means ‘exaltation,’ when used in the Scriptures (John 3:15; Romans 6:23; 1 John 1:2; 2 Nephi 2:28; D&C 5:22; 18:8; 131:5; 138:51; Moses 1:39).” (David R. Ridges, Mormon Beliefs and Doctrines Made Easier, p. 88) Sub-title: “WHAT IS EXALTATION? Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life that God lives.” (Older 1970s version, p. 289) * ”Exaltation is a synonym for eternal life. Exaltation comes only to those who inherit the highest degree within the celestial kingdom…it consists in the continuation of the family unit throughout eternity; it is the type of life that is lived by our Heavenly Father.” (Daniel H. Ludlow, A Companion to Your Study of the Doctrines and Covenants, 2:85) * Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life God lives. He lives in great glory. He is perfect. He possesses all knowledge, and all wisdom. He is the Father of spirit children. He is a creator. We can become like our Heavenly Father. This is exaltation.” (Gospel Principles, 1997, p. 302) * “Eternal life…In fact…means exaltation. He who receives the greatest portion of eternal life becomes a God.” (Milton R. Hunter, an LDS Seventy, The Gospel Through the Ages, p. 11) * Exaltation means godhood, creatorship. ‘As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may be (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p. 53) * “Exaltation is the greatest of all the gifts and attainments possible. It is available only in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom and is reserved for members of the Church of the Firstborn. This exalted status, called eternal life, is available to be received by a man and a wife. It means not only living in God’s presence, but receiving power to do as God does, including the power to bear children after the resurrection.” (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, 2:479 Quote for resurrection alone not = 'eternal life': * “…resurrection alone does not qualify us for eternal life in the presence of God…we need His grace to purify and perfect us ‘after all we can do’ (2 Nephi 25:23).” (Truth to the Faith: A Gospel Reference, Intellectual Reserve, 2004, p. 77)
4. Trusting in Jesus Christ and relating to Jesus Christ for the Mormon thereby only amounts to what your life MERITS. Yup. You're ONLY a cosmic Boy Scout! The final quote in the previous row was: “…resurrection alone does not qualify us for eternal life in the presence of God…we need His grace to purify and perfect us ‘after all we can do’ (2 Nephi 25:23).” (Truth to the Faith: A Gospel Reference, Intellectual Reserve, 2004, p. 77) Hence -- for MORMONS -- heaven isn't a gift...it's based upon "all you can do" and merits: * Each of us has been sent to earth by our Heavenly Father to merit eternal life (Lds apostle Robert D. Hales, “Personal Revelation: The Teachings and Examples of the Prophets,” Ensign (Conference Edition), Nov. 1985, p. 20) * “…immortality is to live forever in the resurrected state, and by the grace of God all men will gain this unending continuance of life. But ONLY THOSE who obey the fullness of the gospel law will inherit eternal life. (D&C 29:43-44)…it is the kind, status, type, and quality of life that God himself enjoys. Thus those who gain eternal life receive exaltation; they are sons of God, joint-heirs with Christ…they overcome all things, have all power, and receive the fullness of the Father. THEY ARE GODS.” McConkie, p. 237, 1979 ed. [My note: Of course, McConkie cites D&C 29:43-44…but these verses say no such thing…v. 43 actually says that ”immortality unto eternal life” is given to ”as many as would BELIEVE”…’shifty’ McConkie…trying to pull a rabbit when no hat exists] * “The…gift of eternal life…is conditional. In order to qualify, one must deny oneself of ungodliness and honor the ordinance and covenants of the temple.” (Lds apostle Russell M. Nelson, “Divine Love,” Ensign, Feb. 2003, p. 24 * "Very gladly would the Lord give to everyone eternal life, but since that blessing can come only on MERIT -- through the faithful performance of duty - ONLY those who are WORTHY shall receive it." (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:5) These citations are outright heresy taught by heretics! If you don't believe Mormons teach you have to "work" for eternal life vs. Jesus giving it to us NOW in a relationship with Him that starts now, then may I suggest you first read John 17:3 -- and then compare to these above citations from Lds leaders! For another thread on this topic, please see: what qualifies people to live with heavenly father for all eternity? (MormonISM - open)
1. Mormon theology about heaven says it's a place -- at least for the 99% of people who would live there -- where Christians don't get to live with Heavenly Father forever!!!!! When Mormons talk about eternal life & exaltation, they're not just talking about "heaven" What's the "rest of the story"? * Mormons believe that only their “Melchizedek priests” (D&C 76:57) are the ones eligible for “dwell[ing] in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.” (D&C 76:62) In the Mormon view of heaven, ONLY those entering into Mormon "covenants" and obeying fully Mormon laws get to live forever in God's presence: * Eternal life is living with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ in the celestial kingdom. This blessing--which is also called exaltation--comes only to those who keep the commandments and make the necessary covenants (Source: Preparing for Exaltation Teacher's Manual, p. 4, 1998) * ”Immortality is to live forever as a resurrected being. Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, everyone will receive this gift. Eternal life, or exaltation, is to inherit a place in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom, where we will live in God’s presence and continue as families.” (same source, p. 52) * “’Eternal life’ is a higher state than immortality alone and means to live forever in a resurrected condition in the presence of God, and to become like God…Eternal life is exaltation into the type and quality of life that God lives. Receiving eternal life is conditional, predicated upon obedience to the fullness of gospel law and ordinances (D&C 29:43-44; 130:20-21). It requires voluntary obedience to all of the ordinances and principles of the gospel…continuing through…the covenants of the Endowment and marriage in the temple…” (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, 2:677-678)

2 posted on 11/15/2012 4:34:43 PM PST by Colofornian (“...those outside the Church who say Lds do not believe in the traditional Christ. No I don't."-GH)
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To: Colofornian

Who cares? Aren’t there more important issues to worry about right now?


3 posted on 11/15/2012 4:36:22 PM PST by Eva
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To: Colofornian

Some nut in the 19th century made up stuff and people follow him...even change the story to fit the times. IMO the reason why Mormonism started was for men to have sex with as many women as possible.


4 posted on 11/15/2012 4:39:01 PM PST by Dallas59 (President Robert Gibbs 2009-2011)
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To: Eva

(Only somebody dabbling in foolishness thinks the “brush fire” here on earth is the three-alarm, city-wide meltdown that hell represents)


5 posted on 11/15/2012 4:44:39 PM PST by Colofornian (“...those outside the Church who say Lds do not believe in the traditional Christ. No I don't."-GH)
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To: Colofornian

Your war on Mormonism is less than a brush fire right now.


6 posted on 11/15/2012 4:48:05 PM PST by Eva
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To: Colofornian

Folks who instantly rebel at the Buddhist idea that you don’t get off the Wheel of Life until you achieve satori in real time ~ or something approaching it, are usually not as critical of Mormons.


7 posted on 11/15/2012 4:48:38 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: Eva

Romney lost, or had the election stolen, so it really doesn’t matter, does it?


8 posted on 11/15/2012 4:51:28 PM PST by Terry Mross (I haven't watched the news since the election. Someone ping me if anything big happens.)
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To: All
BTW: Gibson is citing B.H. Roberts.

Roberts was a Mormon historian who compiled the multi-volume Lds History of the Church.

Roberts was a "70" -- part of the Lds "general authority" hierarchy.

He was a would-be Democratic Congressman...

Utah FIRST began electing Congressmen in the late 1890s...

Despite having three wives and supposedly "already" yielding somewhat on polygamy, Utah went ahead & elected Roberts to Congress anyway in 1898.

But Congress refused to seat him as the Utah rep.

Why? Because three years after Utah began suppressing its polygamous inclinations (1890), Roberts took on yet a third simultaneous wife.

Grassroots America objected.

They put together 28 banners. Collected 7 million signatures on them...in the pre-media days of 1898, mind you!

Congress listened. They sent Roberts packing back home!

Thus, the 19th century was closed out by the social-issues minded Republicans...fulfilling the promises they made when they began in 1856...that they would take on the "twin relics of barbarism" -- polygamy and slavery!!!

9 posted on 11/15/2012 4:51:28 PM PST by Colofornian (“...those outside the Church who say Lds do not believe in the traditional Christ. No I don't."-GH)
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To: Terry Mross

(I was posting on Mormonism on FR well before Romney was a POTUS candidate in ‘07)


10 posted on 11/15/2012 4:53:00 PM PST by Colofornian (“...those outside the Church who say Lds do not believe in the traditional Christ. No I don't."-GH)
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To: Eva

Not on the religion forum.......the destination of a persons soul is eternal (just so you are informed).
mormonISM leads people away from God, that is important.


11 posted on 11/15/2012 4:59:27 PM PST by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: Eva

hum? God is very clear as Christians we are to call out false teachings and false prophets........
mormonISM s false - it is being called out.
This is the religion forum, it makes sense.


12 posted on 11/15/2012 5:01:52 PM PST by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: svcw; All

I think I’ll start my own religion.. I still have that Freedom for the time being..


13 posted on 11/15/2012 5:03:42 PM PST by KevinDavis (And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.)
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To: muawiyah

hum? When Buddhist start calling themselves Christians then you will have a point.
The exposure is not of mormons but of mormonISM.


14 posted on 11/15/2012 5:04:05 PM PST by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: Terry Mross

This is the religion forum, mormonISM leading people away from God does matter.


15 posted on 11/15/2012 5:05:12 PM PST by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: KevinDavis

Go ahead, it is your right.
However, if you call yourself Christian and you are not - you will be called out.


16 posted on 11/15/2012 5:06:40 PM PST by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: Eva

If there were, you wouldn’t be the first to eagerly leap onto this thread would you?


17 posted on 11/15/2012 5:16:23 PM PST by ansel12 (Todd Akin was NOT the tea party candidate, Sarah Steelman was, Brunner had tea party support also.)
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To: Eva
Who cares? Aren’t there more important issues to worry about right now?

If there were, you wouldn't be the first to eagerly leap onto this thread would you?

18 posted on 11/15/2012 5:18:09 PM PST by ansel12 (Todd Akin was NOT the tea party candidate, Sarah Steelman was, Brunner had tea party support also.)
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To: Eva

This is in the religion forum. This but one of hundreds on FR.

No one is making you come to this forum or post.

Do you post on another religion forum?


19 posted on 11/15/2012 5:24:02 PM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: Colofornian

men and women of even the telestial glory — may become very acceptable characters, and very important personages.”
_____________________________________________

“important personages”

You betcha...

Nana’s the one sitting behind the big TEA Pot playing Eternal Mother...

and in charge of the goodies..

TEA=Telestial Eats Agency..

Sorry you unfortunate Celestial folks up in the penthouse...

You cant come down to the kitchen...

No food or drink for you...

More Chocolate Cake, Colofornian ???

One lump or 2 ???

:)


20 posted on 11/15/2012 5:43:34 PM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: Colofornian

Sounds a lot like the Catholic doctrine to me. Can Mormons buy their way out of lower heavens? Can they recite the Book of Mormon passages twenty times for atonement? Just asking :)


21 posted on 11/15/2012 5:52:28 PM PST by Aleya2Fairlie
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To: Colofornian
Today, if you go to the LDS apologetics group FARMS’ internal Wiki page on eternal progression between the three kingdoms, you get an odd non-answer that translated, more or less reads.............

In my short time on these threads, I've learned to expect "non answers" from Mormons. I've been told by people in the know, that they will answer only questions, "I should have asked".

22 posted on 11/15/2012 7:39:19 PM PST by Holly_P
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To: Colofornian

Yawn.


23 posted on 11/15/2012 7:44:21 PM PST by Dagnabitt (If I had a failed President, he'd look like Obama.)
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To: KevinDavis
I think I’ll start my own religion..

Why not, J. Smith did it and had all the bucks, booze & babes he could handle. That is if you don't care about your final destiny. Contemplate eternity for a few minutes before you make your decision.

24 posted on 11/15/2012 8:06:55 PM PST by Holly_P
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To: Holly_P

In my short time on these threads, I’ve learned to expect “non answers” from Mormons. I’ve been told by people in the know, that they will answer only questions, “I should have asked”.

- - - - -
Yep or they will dodge the question altogether and just bear their ‘testimony’ - a rote memorization of how they ‘know’ the LDS church is true based on their feelings.


25 posted on 11/16/2012 12:51:28 AM PST by reaganaut (Kyrie eleison...Christe eleison...Kyrie eleison)
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To: Colofornian
Why? Because three years after Utah began suppressing its polygamous inclinations (1890), Roberts took on yet a third simultaneous wife.


26 posted on 11/16/2012 4:50:12 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: KevinDavis
I still have that Freedom for the time being..

Indeed you do!

But Dianetics<>/b> is taken, and Oprahism has not yet been formalized; so you'll have to go in a slightly different direction.

Stay away from pasta based religion; or you may feel the lash of a noodly appendage across your spine!

27 posted on 11/16/2012 4:53:16 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Aleya2Fairlie
Can Mormons buy their way out of lower heavens?

It might be too late.

They could, however, bought their way INTO the high spot while on Earth; if they hadn't been so greedy and kept more than 90.00% of their money for themselves.


 

Temple Recommend Questions



1 Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost?

2 Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer?

3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?

4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?

5 Do you live the law of chastity?

6 Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church?

7 Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

8 Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?

9 Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?

10 Are you a full-tithe payer?

11 Do you keep the Word of Wisdom?

12 Do you have financial or other obligations to a former spouse or children? If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations?

13 If you have previously received your temple endowment:

Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple?
Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple?

14 Have there been any sins or misdeeds in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but have not been?

15 Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord's house and participate in temple ordinances?

28 posted on 11/16/2012 4:56:23 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Holly_P
Why not, J. Smith did it and had all the bucks, booze & babes he could handle.

 

Polygamy: How it all got Started


 
 
 
Joe: Hey Emma!   Guess what!?
 
Emma: You KNOW I hate these guessing games! What is it, Dear?
 
Joe: I heard a voice, probably the Lord, tell me I must take other wives.
 
Emma: WHAT!?   You ding bat!  Don't you KNOW what our precious BOOK says?   After all; YOU are the one that translated it!
 
Joe: Books; schmooks.   All I know is I've been COMMANDED to take other wives and you are to OBEY ME!!!
 
 
Emma:      "Though shalt NOT commit ADULTERY!!!"
 
 
Joe: Silly Woman!  You KNOW better than to take things out of CONTEXT!!!
 
 
 
 
 

 
...and the rest is HISTORY...
 

 
 
 
 
 
THE BOOK OF JACOB
THE BROTHER OF NEPHI
CHAPTER 2
 
  24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
  25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
  26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.
  27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
  28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
  29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.
  30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
  31 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.
  32 And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.
 

Or even HERE:
 

 1 Timothy 3:2-3
 2.  Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
 3.  not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.
 
 
1 Timothy 3:12
   A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well.
 
 
 Titus 1:6
   An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.



 
 
Emma: That's IT!   I'm LEAVING your sorry *!!!
 
Joe:  DARN you Emma; you were TOLD to accept this!!   Wait!!!   I hear a voice again!!!
 
 


 
THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
SECTION 132
 
  51–57, Emma Smith is counseled (commanded) to be faithful and true; 58–66, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.
 
 
  51 Verily, I say unto you: A commandment I give unto mine handmaid, Emma Smith, your wife, whom I have given unto you, that she stay herself and partake not of that which I commanded you to offer unto her; for I did it, saith the Lord, to aprove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice.
  52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, areceive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.
  53 For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been afaithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him.
  54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and acleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be bdestroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.
  55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an ahundredfold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of beternal lives in the eternal worlds.
  56 And again, verily I say, let mine handmaid aforgive my servant Joseph his trespasses; and then shall she be forgiven her trespasses, wherein she has trespassed against me; and I, the Lord thy God, will bless her, and multiply her, and make her heart to brejoice.


29 posted on 11/16/2012 4:57:49 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: reaganaut
Yep or they will dodge the question altogether and just bear their ‘testimony’ ...


30 posted on 11/16/2012 5:02:23 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: reaganaut
Time for Communion...


31 posted on 11/16/2012 5:15:34 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Terry Mross

The FR lds thread debates predated Mitt Willard McBush’s antics by many many years.

There is little connection to Romney’s fake conservative campaign and these threads.


32 posted on 11/16/2012 5:35:26 AM PST by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: Colofornian
From the article:

In the Mormon view of heaven, ONLY those entering into Mormon "covenants" and obeying fully Mormon laws get to live forever in God's presence: * Eternal life is living with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ in the celestial kingdom. This blessing--which is also called exaltation--comes only to those who keep the commandments and make the necessary covenants

(Source: Preparing for Exaltation Teacher's Manual, p. 4, 1998)

This is the belief of those nice neighbors, of those clean-cut young men on bikes....oh, and Mitt Romney (not to mention the mormons of FR).

This is what the "we are Christians, too" mantra from Salt Lake City really consists of and is put forth to the Christ-believing world.

And THIS garbage is what mormons and non-mormon FReepers alike come on these pages to "defend against" the handful of "bigoted" anti-mormons on FR.

How much more bigoted can it be than to claim that only "those entering into Mormon "covenants" and obeying fully Mormon laws get to live forever in God's presence"

stop claiming

33 posted on 11/16/2012 7:07:50 AM PST by greyfoxx39 (We told you Mitt couldn't win.)
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To: Vendome

If I could block the anti-Mormon crusade from the religious forum from my computer, I would. It’s a boring waste of time.


34 posted on 11/16/2012 8:43:02 AM PST by Eva
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To: Eva
It’s a boring waste of time.

And yet you USE your precious time commenting about it!

PRICELESS!!!



35 posted on 11/16/2012 8:57:20 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Eva
If I could block the anti-Mormon crusade from the religious forum from my computer, I would.

But Ma'am! You STILL get US on your porch!!



36 posted on 11/16/2012 8:58:49 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

No, I don’t get Mormons on my porch. I have a gate at the end of my driveway.


37 posted on 11/16/2012 9:09:10 AM PST by Eva
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To: Elsie

HA! I’m saving that for later use.


38 posted on 11/16/2012 11:01:40 AM PST by reaganaut (Kyrie eleison...Christe eleison...Kyrie eleison)
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To: Aleya2Fairlie; SENTINEL

Can Mormons buy their way out of lower heavens? Can they recite the Book of Mormon passages twenty times for atonement?

- - - - - -
I sense the humor in your questions, but I am going to give you a serious answer.

Mormons have 3 levels of heaven, and no real Hell. They also have ‘spirit prison’ which is similar to Catholic purgatory but only temporary and they can get out of that if they accept the Mormon gospel in the afterlife (LDS from ‘spirit paradise’ go and preach to the spirits in prison) and a worthy Mormon does their ‘temple work’ (baptism, endowments, marriage for eternity, sealing children to parents) here on earth (which is why they are so into genealogy).

After the return of Christ, they will be judged and sent to one of the 3 kingdoms. Joseph Smith taught that even the lowest kingdom (telestial) is so great that we would commit suicide to get there. Here is a break down of the 3 kingdoms...

Telestial - Everyone no matter how bad you are who doesn’t accept Jesus in this life or the Mormon gospel in the next. Unrepentant serial killers who don’t accept the Mormon gospel in ‘spirit prison’ would go here. This level (kingdom) only has the Holy Ghost present.

Terrestrial - Those who live a ‘good’ life, and believed in Christ, but didn’t accept Mormon gospel either in this life or in spirit prison go here. Also, Mormons who were not married in the temple, or were not considered ‘worthy’ go here. Billy Graham would probably end up here as would most ‘jack Mormons’. This is where Jesus is (but not God the Father). The Holy Ghost can visit, but God cannot and Jesus cannot go to the lower level.

Celestial - This is the HIGHEST level of Mormon heaven. This is their true heaven and the equivalent of what Christians call Heaven. There is speculation that there are many sub levels but the goal is the highest level. God the Father is here, Jesus and the Holy Spirit can visit. Those who accepted Mormonism in ‘spirit prison’ and had a faithful Mormon do their ‘temple work’ here will go to the lower levels of this kingdom, while the ‘worthy’ Mormons who did all the works required (including Temple rites and being married) will ‘progress’ into ‘exaltation’ - becoming gods themselves, just like God the father and get their own universes and organize (Mormon gods can’t create or destroy matter just organize it) ‘spirit babies’ with their wives to populate said planets and teach them Mormonism.

There really is no Hell and no place of eternal fire, almost everyone will go to one of the 3 levels of Heaven. However, for people like me, and other ex-mormons who have been through the temple and fight against the Mormon church - we are considered ‘sons of perdition’ and go to the ultimate deep freeze - ‘outer darkness’. We won’t burn in Hell but because we had a ‘testimony’ of Mormonism and turned away from it and fight it, we go where there is no light or heat.

The fear of outer darkness is so instilled in Mormon brainwashing that it keeps many people who don’t otherwise believe still in. They don’t believe it anymore, but have been taught their whole lives if they leave they will go to ‘outer darkness’.

And no, there is no progression from level to level.


39 posted on 11/16/2012 11:26:15 AM PST by reaganaut (Kyrie eleison...Christe eleison...Kyrie eleison)
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To: Eva; Vendome

Then don’t come on the threads. It may be boring to you, but it is VERY necessary and we have done a lot to open the eyes of people about the realities of Mormonism and even seen some Mormons leave Mormonism and come to Christ because of these threads.

So it isn’t your cup of tea, fine. But it is our CALLING from God and we won’t stop - we can’t stop.


40 posted on 11/16/2012 11:29:42 AM PST by reaganaut (Kyrie eleison...Christe eleison...Kyrie eleison)
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To: Eva

If I could block the anti-Mormon crusade from the religious forum from my computer, I would. It’s a boring waste of time.

- - - - -
Would you block the Mormon crusade who spent years on here (up until last year when their caucus designation was removed due to abuse by them) proselytizing without challenge?

Do you have any faith worth defending? (honest question).


41 posted on 11/16/2012 11:33:48 AM PST by reaganaut (Kyrie eleison...Christe eleison...Kyrie eleison)
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To: reaganaut; Eva

Just don’t come to the thread when you see it.

You know what it’s about.

I only click on 15% of the total articles that show up in my entire interests.


42 posted on 11/16/2012 11:34:15 AM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: Vendome

I’m not even sure I click on that many. LOL.


43 posted on 11/16/2012 11:37:01 AM PST by reaganaut (Kyrie eleison...Christe eleison...Kyrie eleison)
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To: reaganaut

He’s got a bunch of good ones on there; it just takes a bit of work to pry the web address out of the clutter...


44 posted on 11/16/2012 1:01:45 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: reaganaut

That’s cuz you actually have a life, with better things to do.

Don’t be loser...like me..../S

LOL


45 posted on 11/16/2012 1:02:41 PM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: reaganaut
HEAVEN: About 1/3 the way down in this list...


 

Here is an alphabetical list of some of the more important terms and their meanings to a Mormon:

AARONIC PRIESTHOOD: This is called the lesser priesthood, and is usually held by young men starting at the age of 12 to the age of about 18. It is also held for a short time by men who have just become members.

AFTERLIFE: The Mormon afterlife is divided up into four levels. From the lowest to the highest they are: hell, and then three levels of heaven: the telestial, the terrestrial, and the place where God dwells, the celestial (also called the kingdom of God). The celestial is also divided, the highest level being "exaltation," or becoming a God.

APOSTLES: The Mormon Church claims to have the same organization as the primitive church that Jesus set up. They also have twelve apostles and sometimes use this as a proof of their divine appointment as the one true church. But they actually have fifteen or more most of the time. The general practice has been for a new president, who is also an apostle, to appoint counselors from the Quorum of the Twelve; then the openings left by the president and his counselors are filled, resulting in a total of fifteen.

CELESTIAL KINGDOM: See Heaven.

ELOHIM: The name of God the Father.

EXALTATION: This is becoming a God in the highest level of the celestial kingdom.

ETERNAL PROGRESSION: The teaching that each of us has the potential to become a God just like God the Father did. He was once a man capable of physical death, was resurrected and progressed to become a God. We can take a similar path and get all the power, glory, dominion, and knowledge the Father and Jesus Christ has. We then will be able to procreate spirit children who will worship us as we do God the Father.

GOD: Usually means God the Father. He was once a man like us capable of physical death and he progressed until he became a God. He has a body of flesh and bones, but no blood. Within Mormonism, Gods, angels, people and devils all have the same nature or substance but are at different stages along the line of progression to Godhood.

GRACE - The Mormon concept of grace means making oneself worthy of the grace of God by doing good works in the church, temple, and community.

HEAVEN-The Mormon church teaches there are three levels of heaven (three "degrees of glory"):

HELL: A place of torment from which the worst of sinners are resurrected (if they repent) into the Telestial kingdom; only a limited number remain in hell forever, - the devil and the demons and apostates who consciously reject and work against Mormonism.

HOLY GHOST: The third member of the Godhead, a personage of spirit, unlike the Father and Son who have bodies of flesh and bones.

JEHOVAH: The pre-incarnate name for Jesus Christ.

JESUS CHRIST: The spirit of Jesus Christ was the first spirit born to God the Father and his wife (Heavenly Mother). He progressed to become a God under the Father. (The Father is also the literal father of Jesus' body in the exact same way we were begotten by our earthly parents.) He now has a body of flesh and bones, but no blood. He is the spirit brother of Satan whose spirit was procreated in the same way as Jesus'. To Mormons, even the atonement of his shed blood is not enough to provide forgiveness of sin and bring eternal life. Stripped of his Deity and demoted to a partial Savior, the Jesus of Mormonism has been robbed of his power and authority. Not only is the Mormon Jesus one who had struggled to achieve his own salvation, he also failed to establish his church. Both in Jerusalem and in the America's where Jesus was supposed to have visited, he attempted to build a group of followers. But in each case, truth was overcome by the alleged early church apostasy into false teaching.

MARRIAGE: The Mormon Church teaches two types of marriage. One ends at death. The other is for "time and eternity." If the couple is married in a Mormon temple by someone with authority it is believed they will stay married in the next life. This kind of marriage is needed if they are to progress, not only as husband and wife, but as God and Goddess.

MELCHIZEDEK PRIESTHOOD: The higher of two categories of ministry in the LDS Church, assigned primarily to seasoned members over the age of 18, males only.

POLYGAMY: The practice of men having more than one wife was started by Joseph Smith in the early/mid 1830's and ostensibly ended in 1890. It is not now sanctioned by the LDS church headquartered in Salt Lake City. Members found practicing it are excommunicated. While the practice was ended, the revelation teaching it is still in Mormon scripture (Doctrine & Covenants 132). Some Mormon splinter groups believe the teaching was for eternity and still practice it. These modern-day polygamists (called fundamentalists) number in the 30,000-50,000 range.

PRE-EXISTENCE: The Mormon teaching that our spirits (Mormons and non-Mormons) were procreated in a premortal life by God the Father and our Mother in Heaven, that our spirits were born and raised to maturity before coming to earth to obtain physical bodies, and that the spirit of Jesus Christ was the first one born to our Heavenly parents.

PRIESTHOOD: A category of ministry in the LDS Church open to all worthy males 12 years of age or older, empowering them to act in God's name. Non-Mormons cannot hold the priesthood, hence they have no authority. Men of African descent have only recently (by special correction of the original revelations) been allowed to hold these offices.

PROPHET: The top leader of the Mormon Church is considered not only a prophet but is also a seer and revelator. He has the title "president." He is the only one who can speak for the whole church and receive new revelation for the whole church. When the current prophet dies, the most senior (time as an apostle, not age) of the twelve apostles, the president of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, becomes the new president. He can appoint counselors, who receive their authority from him.

SALVATION: A word that Mormons qualify in one of three ways: unconditional or general salvation is simply resurrection from the dead, granted to all through Christ's atonement; conditional or individual salvation involves entering the celestial kingdom through works of Mormonism; full salvation means exaltation to become a God as a result of temple ceremonies and other works. The word 'salvation' can have a two-fold meaning: a) forgiveness of sins and b) universal resurrection:

The Mormons have several different levels of "salvation".

SATAN: One of the spirit children of God. As a consequence of their rebellion Satan and his angels cannot have mortal bodies - hence cannot progress.

SCRIPTURES: The Mormon Church has four documents it calls canonized scriptures: the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, and the King James Version of the Holy Bible.

SON OF GOD: Along with Jesus Christ, all of us are viewed as the children of God, his literal spirit children. This makes us all - Mormons, non-Mormons, Jesus Christ and Satan - spirit brothers.

SPIRITS: Nonmaterial beings allegedly procreated in the pre-existence by God the Father and his wife. Jesus Christ, and even we ourselves, were supposedly born and raised to maturity as spirits before coming into bodies on this earth. The spirit of Satan was also procreated in this way. This makes Satan and Jesus Christ spirit brothers. Jesus selected a righteous path; Satan selected the opposite.

STANDARD WORKS: The four canonized scriptures (see Scripture above) used by the Mormon Church are called the Standard Works.

TEMPLE: One of about four dozen special (for LDS) buildings around the world in which sacred (to LDS) ceremonies are performed for the living and the dead; off limits to nonmembers and even to Mormons who lack a "temple recommend" from their leaders. Only about 20% of the Mormons qualify to go.

TRINITY: This word is used by Christians to summarize the Biblical teaching that within the one true God is three persons: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost. They share the same nature or substance so that there are not three Gods, but three persons in the one God. Mormons say they also believe in the Trinitarian concept of God. But really what they mean are that God the Father is a God, God the Son is another God, and God the Holy Ghost is a third God and they are "one God" because they are "one in purpose." Mormons often have an incorrect understanding of what Christians mean by the "Trinity." They say Christians believe that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one person (i.e., Monophysiteism) or that God shows himself as the Father or the Son or the Holy Ghost (i.e. Modalism).

VIRGIN BIRTH: A concept negated by the view that God, a resurrected man with flesh and bones according to Mormon teachings, literally fathered Jesus in the flesh in the same way in which earthly men father their children. Despite the documented position of previous Mormon prophets, presidents, and apostles about the nature of Christ's conception, modern LDS apologists maintain that "Christ was born of a virgin". How can they? By changing the definition of the word "virgin". The reasoning goes like this: since Mary had sexual relations with an immortal man, not a mortal man, the phrase "virgin birth" still applies.

WORD OF WISDOM: The name for the Mormon Church's teaching requiring abstinence from tobacco, alcohol, and hot drinks (tea and coffee).



46 posted on 11/16/2012 1:03:59 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: reaganaut

Righto!

I mean GOSH! there’s ONLY 27 hours in a day!


47 posted on 11/16/2012 1:05:09 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Vendome

It’s difficult to ignore threads that are offensive, when they pop up at the top of the page and the anti-Mormon crusade is just as offensive as Obama’s war on the Catholic Church. As a matter of fact, the anti Mormon Crusade, reminds me more of the Muslim outrage over images of Mohammed.


48 posted on 11/16/2012 1:13:10 PM PST by Eva
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To: Eva
As a matter of fact, the anti Mormon Crusade, reminds me more of the Muslim outrage over images of Mohammed.

“I Will Be a Second Mohammed”

In the heat of the Missouri “Mormon War” of 1838, Joseph Smith made the following claim, “I will be to this generation a second Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was ‘the Alcoran [Koran] or the Sword.’ So shall it eventually be with us—‘Joseph Smith or the Sword!’ ”[1]

It is most interesting that a self-proclaimed Christian prophet would liken himself to Mohammed, the founder of Islam. His own comparison invites us to take a closer look as well. And when we do, we find some striking—and troubling—parallels. Consider the following.

  • Mohammed and Joseph Smith both had humble beginnings. Neither had formal religious connections or upbringing, and both were relatively uneducated. Both founded new religions by creating their own scriptures. In fact, followers of both prophets claim these scriptures are miracles since their authors were the most simple and uneducated of men.[2]

  • Both prophets claim of having angel visitations, and of receiving divine revelation to restore pure religion to the earth again. Mohammed was told that both Jews and Christians had long since corrupted their scriptures and religion. In like manner, Joseph Smith was told that all of Christianity had become corrupt, and that consequently the Bible itself was no longer reliable. In both cases, this corruption required a complete restoration of both scripture and religion. Nothing which preceded either prophet could be relied upon any longer. Both prophets claim they were used of God to restore eternal truths which once existed on earth, but had been lost due to human corruption.

  • Both prophets created new scripture which borrowed heavily from the Bible, but with a substantially new “spin.” In his Koran, Mohammed appropriates a number of Biblical themes and characters—but he changes the complete sense of many passages, claiming to “correct” the Bible. In so doing he changes many doctrines, introducing his own in their place. In like manner, Joseph Smith created the Book of Mormon, much of which is plagiarized directly from the King James Bible. Interestingly, the Book of Mormon claims that this same Bible has been substantially corrupted and is therefore unreliable. In addition, Joseph Smith went so far as to actually create his own version of the Bible itself, the “Inspired Version,” in which he both adds and deletes significant portions of text, claiming he is “correcting” it. In so doing he also changes many doctrines, introducing his own in their place.

  • As a part of their new scriptural “spin,” both prophets saw themselves as prophesied in scripture, and both saw themselves as a continuation of a long line of Biblical prophets. Mohammed saw himself as a continuation of the ministry of Moses and Jesus. Joseph Smith saw himself as a successor to Enoch, Melchizedek, Joseph and Moses. Joseph Smith actually wrote himself into his own version of the Bible—by name.

  • Both prophets held up their own scripture as superior to the Bible. Mohammed claimed that the Koran was a perfect copy of the original which was in heaven. The Koran is therefore held to be absolutely perfect, far superior to the Bible and superceding it. In like manner, Joseph Smith also made the following claim. “I told the Brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding its precepts, than by any other book.”[3]

  • Despite their claim that the Bible was corrupt, both prophets admonished their followers to adhere to its teachings. An obvious contradiction, this led to selective acceptance of some portions and wholesale rejection of others. As a result, the Bible is accepted by both groups of followers only to the extent that it agrees with their prophet’s own superior revelation.

  • Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith taught that true salvation was to be found only in their respective religions. Those who would not accept their message were considered “infidels,” pagans or Gentiles. In so doing, both prophets became the enemy of genuine Christianity, and have led many people away from the Christ of the Bible.

  • Both prophets encountered fierce opposition to their new religions and had to flee from town to town because of threats on their lives. Both retaliated to this opposition by forming their own militias. Both ultimately set up their own towns as model societies.

  • Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith left unclear instructions about their successors. The majority of Mohammed’s followers, Sunni Muslims, believe they were to elect their new leader, whereas the minority, Shiite Muslims, look to Alī ibn Abī Ṭālib, whom they consider Divinely appointed, as the rightful successor to Muhammad, and the first imam. (Ali was the cousin and son-in-law of the Islamic prophet Muhammad). Similarly, the majority of Joseph Smith's followers, Mormons, believed their next prophet should have been the existing leader of their quorum of twelve apostles, whereas the minority, RLDS, believed Joseph Smith's own son should have been their next prophet. Differences on this issue, and many others, have created substantial tension between these rival groups of each prophet.

  • Mohammed taught that Jesus was just another of a long line of human prophets, of which he was the last. He taught that he was superior to Christ and superceded Him. In comparison, Joseph Smith also made the following claim.

“I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him, but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.”[4] In light of these parallels, perhaps Joseph Smith's claim to be a second Mohammed unwittingly became his most genuine prophecy of all.


[1] Joseph Smith made this statement at the conclusion of a speech in the public square at Far West, Missouri on October 14, 1838. This particular quote is documented in Fawn M. Brodie, No Man Knows My History, second edition, (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1971), p. 230–231. Fawn Brodie’s footnote regarding this speech contains valuable information, and follows. “Except where noted, all the details of this chapter [16] are taken from the History of the [Mormon] Church. This speech, however, was not recorded there, and the report given here is based upon the accounts of seven men. See the affidavits of T.B. Marsh, Orson Hyde, George M. Hinkle, John Corrill, W.W. Phelps, Samson Avard, and Reed Peck in Correspondence, Orders, etc., pp. 57–9, 97–129. The Marsh and Hyde account, which was made on October 24, is particularly important. Part of it was reproduced in History of the [Mormon] Church, Vol. III, p. 167. See also the Peck manuscript, p. 80. Joseph himself barely mentioned the speech in his history; see Vol. III, p. 162.”

[2] John Ankerberg & John Weldon, The Facts on Islam, (Eugene, OR: Harvest House Publishers, 1998), pp.8–9. Eric Johnson, Joseph Smith & Muhammed, (El Cajon, CA: Mormonism Research Ministry, 1998), pp. 6–7.

[3] Documentary History of the [Mormon] Church, vol.4, pp.461.

[4] Documentary History of the [Mormon] Church, vol.6, pp.408–409.




49 posted on 11/16/2012 1:32:48 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Eva
It’s difficult to ignore threads that are offensive, when they pop up at the top of the page and the anti-Mormon crusade is just as offensive as Obama’s war on the Catholic Church.

Have you heard of MORMONism's war against CHRISTIANITY?

It's the driving force behind the facade...



Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
 
 
 
Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses
, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).
 
 
President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).
 
 
 
James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).
 
 
 
President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).
 
 
 
More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).
 
 
 
President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).
 
 
President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

50 posted on 11/16/2012 1:34:51 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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