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To: one Lord one faith one baptism
finally, i doubt any Calvinist would agree with your statement that they “stay on the boat due to THEIR ability...” sounds like “works” to me.

Yes, I didn't agree with this part. All analogies fall short (which is why I normally don't like them) and this is no exception. Some Arminians would probably question lost of salvation as some of them believe in "once saved always saved". But I thought it explain the various position reasonbly well.

I agree with your views on the Council of Orange. However, what really help my understanding of what true heresy the "free will" concept was, is in Predestination of the Saints by Augustine.

Now if anyone knew what a Pelagius was it was Augustine. And Augustine DIRECTLY ties the concept of "free will" to Pelagius. HOW many times have we heard people on this board defend "free will" AND YET deny they are holding Pelagius belief which was declared to be heretical in the worst sort of way by the church?

It's baffling to me.

111 posted on 06/22/2012 3:04:59 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD
Augustine's objection to Pelagius was specifically to the idea that the unjustified man could approach God without the aid of grace. It wasn't an unqualified rejection of "free will."

The same Augustine wrote this:

Here is the whole quote: “He was handed over for our offenses, and He rose again for our justification (19).” What does this mean, “for our justification”? So that He might justify us; so that He might make us just. You will be a work of God, not only because you are a man, but also because you are just. For it is better that you be just than that you be a man. If God made you a man, and you made yourself just, something you were doing would be better than what God did. But God made you without any cooperation on your part. For you did not lend your consent so that god could make you. How could you have consented, when you did not exist? But he who made you without your consent does not justify you without your consent. He made you without your knowledge, but He does not justify you without you willing it. (Sermon 169)

117 posted on 06/22/2012 5:34:19 AM PDT by Campion ("Social justice" begins in the womb)
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