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Scholar Says Mormon Scripture Not an Egyptian Translation
Signature books ^ | 2012 | Signature Books

Posted on 02/10/2012 9:34:37 AM PST by reaganaut

Chicago—In 1835 a traveling curiosity peddler of Egyptian mummies arrived in the small town of Kirtland, Ohio. He caught the attention of Joseph Smith (1805-44), the controversial founder of the Mormon religion. Smith secured a large sum of money from his followers ($2,400, or $60,000 in today’s dollars) to purchase four Egyptian mummies with scrolls of papyri. Smith announced that he could do what no one else could do: translate the ancient hieroglyphics. Smith asserted that the papyri contained the writings of the biblical prophets Abraham and Joseph. He titled his translation of the papyri the “Book of Abraham.” Smith’s translation contained several images from the papyri and in 1851 was published as part of the Mormon scripture called “The Pearl of Great Price.”

Now, for the first time, the surviving papyri have been translated into English in their entirety. In analyzing and translating the ancient texts, Robert K. Ritner, foremost American scholar of Egyptology, has determined that they were prepared for deceased men and women in Thebes during the Greco-Roman period. They have nothing to do with Abraham, Joseph, or a planet called Kolob, as Smith had claimed.

“Except for those willfully blind,” writes Professor Ritner of the University of Chicago’s Oriental Institute, “the case is closed.” In his new book, The Joseph Smith Egyptian Papyri: A Complete Edition, he also accuses two scholars of Egyptology at Mormon-owned Brigham Young University of borrowing and distorting his own writings in trying to defend Smith’s interpretations as authentically translated Egyptian. Smith’s translation narrative tells of a young Abraham who is about to become a human sacrifice at the request of his father. It also tells of a human pre-mortal existence and teaches that the Egyptian pharaohs were cursed by God (leading to the Mormon priesthood restrictions on African Americans). It also established the Mormon theology for multiple gods.

The Mormon Church restricts access to the original papyri, which it owns. Ritner gained access to high resolution scans through a third party. He concluded that the papyri are ordinary Egyptian funeral texts, with possibly a few interesting side notes. For example, one of the Smith papyri is the “Document of Breathing Made by Isis” and is the oldest known datable copy (pre-150 BCE). Otherwise, Ritner states, anyone investigating claims of ancient evidence for Smith’s translation should not “waste his time,” although he does admit “that the study of the Mormon period of Egyptomania is interesting by itself.”

Concerning the charges of uncredited borrowing, Ritner draws attention to the “striking resemblance” to his own work in later publications by Michael D. Rhodes, an Associate Research Professor of Egyptology with BYU’s religion faculty. “One can legitimately raise the question of plagiarism,” says Ritner. In some cases, Rhodes “tacitly adopted my reading, but failed to remove his punctuation from an earlier attempt to translate the artifacts.”

A fragment from the original Joseph Smith papyri, now “Facsimile No. 1” in the Mormon scripture, “The Pearl of Great Price.” Because of the incomplete nature of the fragment, a contemporary of Joseph Smith filled in the missing portions. Joseph Smith’s text begins, “The Book of Abraham. Translated from the papyrus, by Joseph Smith.”Ritner is equally critical of the work of Associate Research Professor of Egyptology John Gee, of BYU’s Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship, and the late Hugh Nibley, a BYU religion professor (BYU does not have a department of Egyptology).

For members of the Mormon religion, Smith’s “translation” remains a product of their faith.

The Joseph Smith Egyptian Papyri: A Complete Edition by Robert K. Ritner with contributions by Marc Coenen, H. Michael Marquardt, and Christopher Woods is published by the Smith-Pettit Foundation of Salt Lake City, and distributed by Signature Books, also of Salt Lake City. The type was set by the Oriental Institute at the University of Chicago.

About the authors and their essays: Robert K. Ritner, Professor of Egyptology at the Oriental Institute, University of Chicago, has published over 100 books and articles on Egyptian religion, magic, medicine, language, and literature, as well as social and political history. Christopher Woods is an Associate Professor of Sumerology, University of Chicago (“The Practice of Egyptian Religion at ‘Ur of the Chaldees’”), Marc Coenen has an Egyptian Studies PhD., University of Leuven, Belgium (“The Ownership and Dating of Certain Joseph Smith Papyri”), and H. Michael Marquardt, is author of The Revelations of Joseph Smith: Text and Commentary (“Joseph Smith’s Egyptian Papers: A History”).


TOPICS: Apologetics; History; Religion & Politics; Theology
KEYWORDS: inman; lds; mormon; romney; scripture
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To: alexander_busek; cruise_missile
How many coins bearing Jesus' likeness were struck during his lifetime? How many buildings, statues, etc. bearing inscriptions of his name were erected during his lifetime? Almost no contemporary documentary evidence of the existence of Jesus Christ exists. Rather, most documents post-date his death, when the "legends" began being concocted.

You are sadly mistaken as to your assertion that there is no historical evidence for Jesus Christ, as any quick Google search will show. The Wikipedia article, for example, lists several contemporary sources which attest to the historicity of Jesus Christ, including Pliny the Younger, Tacitus, and Suetonius, as well as Jewish sources. You are apparently unaware that this list constitutes more than we know about many historical figures whose existence you take for granted.

Your dismissal of Josephus is wholly unwarranted and reveals a lack of understanding regarding how such historical sources are used. Josephus does not refer to Jesus as a mythological invention, but as a real person who lived in Judea in the 1st century. To dismiss Josephus' credibility as a historical source would be contrary to virtually all scholars of Jewish history, for whom Josephus is a primary source.

And if you claim you are only rejecting Josephus' references to Jesus, you might as well admit that you are doing so purely out of prejudice and bias.

Your rhetorical questions about how many coins and buildings, etc. bear Jesus' name "during his lifetime" is obviously irrelevant. Even if Jesus was who he was as portrayed in the New Testament (of which I am fully convinced) one would not expect any coins or buildings to be named after him during his lifetime.

The historical evidence for the existence of Jesus is actually greater than for many other "historical" figures, and that if historians applied your own capricious and misinformed standards, we would have to abandon virtually everything we know about ancient history.

41 posted on 02/10/2012 12:57:57 PM PST by tjd1454
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To: sten; reaganaut
point is, any religion can be attacked, and usually is, by those in another religion. all belief systems are based on ‘faith’ ... which means, no proof

Spoken like a true believing atheist. In the case of the topic of this thread - which apparently wooshed right over the top of your head - is a point where a religious claim can be tested and found to be false.

Your bleats on the other points are worthless as you claim ALL faith is blind faith - I beg to differ. There is no reason for the presence of Christianity if there wasn't an actual, physical resurrection of Jesus - a supernatural act of God. Ignorant bleating about a book 'pulled together' is intellectually dishonest handling of the historically documentable facts that these were the writings of those eyewitnesses to Jesus and his resurrection. Explain to me why they would promulgate a lie to the point of dying for that lie. Just doesn't happen for people in their right minds.

Christianity is a reasonable faith - because it is the most reasonable conclusion from the evidence that exists.

42 posted on 02/10/2012 1:04:49 PM PST by Godzilla (3/7/77)
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To: Colofornian; Elsie; FastCoyote; svcw; Zakeet; SkyPilot; rightazrain; Tennessee Nana; ...

Ping


43 posted on 02/10/2012 2:03:49 PM PST by greyfoxx39 (Don't call us bigots! "Bigotry" is 98% of mormons in NV voting for Mitt Romney.)
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To: sten

That’s right! Why should anyone denigrate your religion of disregard for English grammar and punctuation rules?!


44 posted on 02/10/2012 2:10:21 PM PST by Revolting cat! (Let us prey!)
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To: reaganaut

To the headline: duh!


45 posted on 02/10/2012 2:22:29 PM PST by svcw (Only difference between Romney & BH is one thinks he will be god & other one thinks he already is.)
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Comment #46 Removed by Moderator

To: sten
sten, mormons lie to their own members about embarassing episodes and doctrines. The claim to be Christians in public and swear secret death oaths in the Temples.

They don't let their members have any free time or think for tehmselves...they DO hurt people.

I know, I once was one, and they tore up my family when I left.

47 posted on 02/10/2012 2:34:18 PM PST by SENTINEL (Romney is to Conservatism what Mormonism is to Christianity.)
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To: HMS Surprise
Spoken like a true Mormon, or an atheist They are the same, neither beleive in God Almighty.
48 posted on 02/10/2012 2:50:00 PM PST by svcw (Only difference between Romney & BH is one thinks he will be god & other one thinks he already is.)
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To: reaganaut
Scholar Says Mormon Scripture Not an Egyptian Translation

DUH!

Getting to the party late is better than not getting there at all!

49 posted on 02/10/2012 3:42:19 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: reaganaut
Scholar Says Mormon Scripture Not an Egyptian Translation


"Now the way he translated was he put the urim and thummim into his hat and Darkned his Eyes than he would take a sentance and it would apper in Brite Roman Letters. Then he would tell the writer and he would write it. Then that would go away the next sentance would Come and so on. But if it was not Spelt rite it would not go away till it was rite, so we see it was marvelous. Thus was the hol [whole] translated."
---Joseph Knight's journal.


"In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us."
(History of the RLDS Church, 8 vols.
(Independence, Missouri: Herald House,1951),
"Last Testimony of Sister Emma [Smith Bidamon]," 3:356.

"I, as well as all of my father's family, Smith's wife, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, were present during the translation. . . . He [Joseph Smith] did not use the plates in translation."
---(David Whitmer,
as published in the "Kansas City Journal," June 5, 1881,
and reprinted in the RLDS "Journal of History", vol. 8, (1910), pp. 299-300.

In an 1885 interview, Zenas H. Gurley, then the editor of the RLDS Saints Herald, asked Whitmer if Joseph had used his "Peep stone" to do the translation. Whitmer replied:

"... he used a stone called a "Seers stone," the "Interpreters" having been taken away from him because of transgression. The "Interpreters" were taken from Joseph after he allowed Martin Harris to carry away the 116 pages of Ms [manuscript] of the Book of Mormon as a punishment, but he was allowed to go on and translate by use of a "Seers stone" which he had, and which he placed in a hat into which he buried his face, stating to me and others that the original character appeared upon parchment and under it the translation in English."


"Martin Harris related an incident that occurred during the time that he wrote that portion of the translation of the Book of Mormon which he was favored to write direct from the mouth of the Prophet Joseph Smith. He said that the Prophet possessed a seer stone, by which he was enabled to translate as well as from the Urim and Thummim, and for convenience he then used the seer stone, Martin explained the translation as follows: By aid of the seer stone, sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by Martin and when finished he would say 'Written,' and if correctly written that sentence would disappear and another appear in its place, but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used."
(Edward Stevenson, "One of the Three Witnesses,"
reprinted from Deseret News, 30 Nov. 1881
in Millennial Star, 44 (6 Feb. 1882): 86-87.)

In 1879, Michael Morse, Emma Smith's brother-in-law, stated:
 
 "When Joseph was translating the Book of Mormon [I] had occasion more than once to go into his immediate presence, and saw him engaged at his work of translation. The mode of procedure consisted in Joseph's placing the Seer Stone in the crown of a hat, then putting his face into the hat, so as to entirely cover his face, resting his elbows upon his knees, and then dictating word after word, while the scribes Emma, John Whitmer, O. Cowdery, or some other wrote it down."
(W.W. Blair interview with Michael Morse,
Saints Herald, vol. 26, no. 12
June 15, 1879,  pp. 190-91.)


Joseph Smith's brother William also testified to the "face in the hat" version:
 
"The manner in which this was done was by looking into the Urim and Thummim, which was placed in a hat to exclude the light, (the plates lying near by covered up), and reading off the translation, which appeared in the stone by the power of God"
("A New Witness for Christ in America,"
Francis W. Kirkham, 2:417.)


"The manner in which he pretended to read and interpret was the same manner as when he looked for the money-diggers, with the stone in his hat, while the book of plates were at the same time hid in the woods."
---Isaac Hale (Emma Smith's father's) affidavit, 1834.




50 posted on 02/10/2012 3:43:29 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Cletus.D.Yokel

He pulled it out; ahem; of SOMEwhere!


51 posted on 02/10/2012 3:44:44 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: reaganaut
The Book of Abraham he claimed was a translation of some actual papyri, facsimiles of the graphics are still in LDS books of scripture today, even though they have been debunked for decades.

And HERE are some 'facsimiles' of the caractors(SIC) that were supposedly on the Golden Plates of the Book of MORMON:

The "Caractors" are the only tangible evidence in existence related to Smith's story. No gold plates, no brass plates, no peep stones, no Urim and Thummim... only these "Caractors," not a single one of which is in the purported languages.

 

Smith's translation of the Caractors. According to Martin Harris (Joseph Smith - History, 1:64), "I went to the city of New York, and presented the characters which had been translated, with the translation thereof, to Professor Charles Anthon, a gentleman celebrated for his literary attainments. Professor Anthon stated that the translation was correct, more so than any he had before seen translated from the Egyptian. I then showed him those which were not yet translated,* and he said they were Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic; and he said they were true characters."

Speak right up now in all truthfulness. Isn't it revealing how Smith started out making a stab at creating believable "caractors" but quckly gave up and produced nothing but squiggles, ending up wih a series of nothing more than crude little scribbles? Yet Professor Anthon supposedly translated them!

*Harris must have had two or three pieces of paper with him—one with characters and a translation of them (on the same paper or a separate one) and one with untranslated characters—quite likely the "Caractors." Some Mormon "scholars" have gone out on a limb, sawed it off, and knocked themselves out trying to translate from these true Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic characters a segment that would correspond with a verse from 1 Nephi.


Modern-day experts in Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic. In 1829, any knowledge of these languages possessed by U.S. scholars would have been rudimentary at best. Expertise in them has vastly improved since then. So go ahead, do it. Get any modern expert in these languages to identify which of these "Caractors" are Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac and Arabic. Better still, accept the claim of Mormon apologists that Anthon did indeed so testify and that his appraisal of the Caractors was correct. (Op. cit, pp. 73-75)

Save your money! Samples of Assyriac/Aramaic and Arabic writing:



     .
 

     .
 

      .
 



What say you? Which of Smith's "Caractors" resemble the Assyriac and Arabic ones? No need to pay experts for their analysis. A child could accurately check this out. These writing systems have remained constant for well over 3000 years.


52 posted on 02/10/2012 3:48:37 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: alexander_busek
"Almost no contemporary documentary evidence of the existence of Jesus Christ."

Let me ask you this what year is it? It is 2012 AD why does the world keep track of years from someone death who you say does not exist?

53 posted on 02/10/2012 3:49:53 PM PST by guitarplayer1953 (Grammar & spelling maybe wrong, get over it, the world will not come to an end!)
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To: reaganaut
Interestingly, the prohibition is against all ‘hot drinks’, I know a lot of Mormons who downed Jolt cola or Mt. Dew like it was going to disappear.

Even MORE 'interesting' is the way MORMONs swallow a camel and then gag on the gnat.

What 'gnat'; you say?

Why, the GNAT of NOT eating meat in WARM WEATHER; found in the Word of WISDOM; verses 12 & 13...

 
THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
SECTION 89
 
Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, February 27, 1833. HC 1: 327–329. As a consequence of the early brethren using tobacco in their meetings, the Prophet was led to ponder upon the matter; consequently he inquired of the Lord concerning it. This revelation, known as the Word of Wisdom, was the result. The first three verses were originally written as an inspired introduction and description by the Prophet.
 
1–9, Use of wine, strong drinks, tobacco, and hot drinks proscribed; 10–17, Herbs, fruits, flesh, and grain are ordained for the use of man and of animals; 18–21, Obedience to gospel law, including the Word of Wisdom, brings temporal and spiritual blessings.
 
  1 A aWord OF Wisdom, for the benefit of the council of high priests, assembled in Kirtland, and the church, and also the saints in Zion—
  2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the aword of wisdom, showing forth the order and bwill of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—
  3 Given for a principle with apromise, adapted to the capacity of the bweak and the weakest of all csaints, who are or can be called saints.
  4 Behold, verily, thus saith the Lord unto you: In consequence of aevils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of bconspiring men in the last days, I have cwarned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation—
  5 That inasmuch as any man adrinketh bwine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.
  6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, apure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.
  7 And, again, astrong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.
  8 And again, tobacco is not for the abody, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.
  9 And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.
  10 And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome aherbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—
  11 Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with aprudence and bthanksgiving.
  12 Yea, aflesh also of bbeasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used csparingly;
  13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be aused, only in times of winter, or of cold, or bfamine.
  14 All agrain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth;
  15 And athese hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.
  16 All grain is good for the afood of man; as also the bfruit of the vine; that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground—
  17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.
  18 And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, ashall receive bhealth in their navel and marrow to their bones;
  19 And shall afind bwisdom and great ctreasures of dknowledge, even hidden treasures;
  20 And shall arun and not be bweary, and shall walk and not faint.
  21 And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the adestroying angel shall bpass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen.



54 posted on 02/10/2012 3:52:37 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: sten
point is, any religion can be attacked, and usually is, by those in another religion.

Yup; them MORMONs are pretty nasty in that regard:


Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
 
 
 
Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses
, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).
 
 
President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).
 
 
 
James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).
 
 
 
President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).
 
 
 
More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).
 
 
 
President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).
 
 
President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

55 posted on 02/10/2012 3:54:35 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: sten
you’re just a bigot and your type doesn’t belong on FR or in America.

Sweetheart; you've been missing awhile.

We ANTIs no longer listen to you MORMONs when you are being SO judgemental.

Perhaps more empathy with the Whores of Babylon would be in order if you wish to be seen as a stable individual.

56 posted on 02/10/2012 3:57:04 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: sten
you’re just a bigot and your type doesn’t belong on FR or in America.

You starting your OWN 'extermination order'??

57 posted on 02/10/2012 3:58:08 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Texas Fossil
...I have been told by several that it is very accurate.

Bah!

Then you were LIED to!!

Our very own CHURCH has denounced it as FULL of lies and distortions!

--MormonDude(Just don't ask me to actually point any out though.)

58 posted on 02/10/2012 4:01:09 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: reaganaut
Scholar Says Mormon Scripture Not an Egyptian Translation

You're kidding! What a shock!

59 posted on 02/10/2012 4:01:52 PM PST by Jim Noble ("The Germans: At your feet, or at your throat" - Winston Churchill)
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To: Revolting cat!
Why should anyone denigrate your religion of disregard for English grammar and punctuation rules?!

 
THE FIRST BOOK OF NEPHI

HIS REIGN AND MINISTRY
CHAPTER 16
 
The wicked take the truth to be hard—Lehi’s sons marry the daughters of Ishmael—The Liahona guides their course in the wilderness—Messages from the Lord are written on the Liahona from time to time—Ishmael dies; his family murmur because of afflictions. Between 600 and 592 B.C.
 
 
 1 And it came to pass after I, Nephi, had made an end of speaking to my brethren, behold they said unto me: Thou hast declared unto us hard things, more than we are able to bear.
  2 And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken ahard things against the wicked, according to the truth; and the righteous have I justified, and testified that they should be lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the bguilty taketh the ctruth to be hard, for it dcutteth them to the very center.
  3 And now my brethren, if ye were righteous and were willing to hearken to the truth, and give heed unto it, that ye might awalk uprightly before God, then ye would not murmur because of the truth, and say: Thou speakest hard things against us.
  4 And it came to pass I, Nephi, did exhort my brethren, with all diligence, to keep the commandments of the Lord.
  5 And it came to pass that they did ahumble themselves before the Lord; insomuch that I had joy and great hopes of them, that they would walk in the paths of righteousness.
  6 Now, all these things were said and done as my father dwelt in a tent in the avalley which he called Lemuel.
  7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, took one of the adaughters of Ishmael to bwife; and also, my brethren took of the cdaughters of Ishmael to wife; and also dZoram took the eldest daughter of Ishmael to wife.
  8 And thus my father had fulfilled all the acommandments of the Lord which had been given unto him. And also, I, Nephi, had been blessed of the Lord exceedingly.
  9 And it came to pass that the voice of the Lord spake unto my father by night, and commanded him that on the morrow he should take his ajourney into the wilderness.
  10 And it came to pass that as my father arose in the morning, and went forth to the tent door, to his great astonishment he beheld upon the ground a round aball of curious workmanship; and it was of fine brass. And within the ball were two spindles; and the one bpointed the way whither we should go into the wilderness.
  11 And it came to pass that we did gather together whatsoever things we should carry into the wilderness, and all the remainder of our provisions which the Lord had given unto us; and we did take aseed of every kind that we might carry into the wilderness.
  12 And it came to pass that we did take our tents and depart into the wilderness, across the river Laman.
  13 And it came to pass that we traveled for the space of four days, nearly a south-southeast direction, and we did pitch our tents again; and we did call the name of the place aShazer.
  14 And it came to pass that we did take our bows and our arrows, and go forth into the wilderness to slay food for our families; and after we had slain food for our families we did return again to our families in the wilderness, to the place of Shazer. And we did go forth again in the wilderness, following the same direction, keeping in the most fertile parts of the wilderness, which were in the borders near the aRed Sea.
  15 And it came to pass that we did travel for the space of many days, aslaying food by the way, with our bows and our arrows and our stones and our slings.
  16 And we did follow the adirections of the ball, which led us in the more fertile parts of the wilderness.
  17 And after we had traveled for the space of many days, we did pitch our tents for the space of a time, that we might again rest ourselves and obtain food for our families.
  18 And it came to pass that as I, Nephi, went forth to slay food, behold, I did break my bow, which was made of fine asteel; and after I did break my bow, behold, my brethren were angry with me because of the loss of my bow, for we did obtain no food.
  19 And it came to pass that we did return without food to our families, and being much fatigued, because of their journeying, they did suffer much for the want of food.
  20 And it came to pass that Laman and Lemuel and the sons of Ishmael did begin to murmur exceedingly, because of their sufferings and afflictions in the wilderness; and also my father began to murmur against the Lord his God; yea, and they were all exceedingly sorrowful, even that they did amurmur against the Lord.
  21 Now  it came to pass that I, Nephi, having been afflicted with my brethren because of the loss of my bow, and their bows having lost their asprings, it began to be exceedingly difficult, yea, insomuch that we could obtain no food.
  22 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did speak much unto my brethren, because they had hardened their hearts again, even unto acomplaining against the Lord their God.
  23 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did amake out of wood a bow, and out of a straight stick, an arrow; wherefore, I did arm myself with a bow and an arrow, with a sling and with stones. And I said unto my bfather: Whither shall I go to obtain food?
  24 And it came to pass that he did ainquire of the Lord, for they had bhumbled themselves because of my words; for I did say many things unto them in the energy of my soul.
  25 And it came to pass that the voice of the Lord came unto my father; and he was truly achastened because of his murmuring against the Lord, insomuch that he was brought down into the depths of sorrow.
  26 And it came to pass  that the voice of the Lord said unto him: Look upon the ball, and behold the things which are written.
  27 And it came to pass that when my father beheld the things which were awritten upon the ball, he did fear and tremble exceedingly, and also my brethren and the sons of Ishmael and our wives.
  28 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the pointers which were in the ball, that they did work according to the afaith and diligence and heed which we did give unto them.
  29 And there was also written upon them a new writing, which was plain to be read, which did give us aunderstanding concerning the ways of the Lord; and it was written and changed from time to time, according to the faith and diligence which we gave unto it. And thus we see that by bsmall means the Lord can bring about great things.
  30 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did go forth up into the top of the mountain, according to the adirections which were given upon the ball.
  31 And it came to pass that I did slay wild abeasts, insomuch that I did obtain food for our families.
  32 And it came to pass that I did return to our tents, bearing the beasts which I had slain; and now when they beheld that I had obtained afood, how great was their joy! And it came to pass that they did humble themselves before the Lord, and did give thanks unto him.
  33 And it came to pass that we did again take our journey, traveling nearly the same course as in the beginning; and after we had traveled for the space of many days we did pitch our tents again, that we might tarry for the space of a time.
  34 And it came to pass that aIshmael died, and was buried in the place which was called bNahom.
  35 And it came to pass that the daughters of Ishmael did amourn exceedingly, because of the loss of their father, and because of their bafflictions in the wilderness; and they did cmurmur against my father, because he had brought them out of the land of Jerusalem, saying: Our father is dead; yea, and we have wandered much in the wilderness, and we have suffered much affliction, hunger, thirst, and fatigue; and after all these sufferings we must perish in the wilderness with hunger.
  36 And thus they did murmur against my father, and also against me; and they were desirous to areturn again to Jerusalem.
  37 And Laman said unto Lemuel and also unto the sons of Ishmael: Behold, let us aslay our father, and also our brother Nephi, who has taken it upon him to be our bruler and our teacher, who are his elder brethren.
  38 Now, he says that the Lord has talked with him, and also that aangels have ministered unto him. But behold, we know that he lies unto us; and he tells us these things, and he worketh many things by his cunning arts, that he may deceive our eyes, thinking, perhaps, that he may lead us away into some strange wilderness; and after he has led us away, he has thought to make himself a king and a ruler over us, that he may do with us according to his will and pleasure. And after this manner did my brother Laman bstir up their hearts to canger.
  39 And it came to pass that the Lord was with us, yea, even the voice of the Lord came and did speak many words unto them, and did achasten them exceedingly; and after they were chastened by the voice of the Lord they did turn away their anger, and did repent of their sins, insomuch that the Lord did bless us again with food, that we did not perish.


60 posted on 02/10/2012 4:04:35 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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