Posted on 08/16/2011 7:16:05 AM PDT by marbren
Really shoddy scholarship represented in this article. I have no desire to elevate the idea of a dictator pastor or of pastor devotion, but one must admit that those are extremes. Pastor, properly understood is a legitimate position in the New Testament, and increasingly so as 1st era Christianity moved outward into the world.
Pastor is in the list of “gifts” in 1 Co 12 & 14. Elders were to be appointed in all the churches. The elders, pastors, overseers, were interchangeable terms.
Paul says that the ox shouldn’t be muzzled. Why and in what context?
Paul says that he refused payment when, in reality, it was due him. In that early church he didn’t want anyone to get the impression he was preaching the gospel for financial gain.
When I first laid eyes on my present Pastor I heard an audible voice with no preconceived notions say to me in my head “Help Him”. It has been a Joy!
I was raised a Plymouth Brethren. No pastors, only Elders and Deacons.
The Breaking of Bread (Communion) is held every week, and the men stand to speak briefly or pray as they are led. Sermons are passed around among a group who has had appropriate training. Many women still wear head coverings in that meeting.
No kidding. The guy comes up with an idea and then attempts to find the evidence to prove he is right.
A good example of Eisegesis. A bad example of scholarship.
I found this tidbit of nonsense rather interesting:
"Ekklesia was used about 100 times in the Greek translation of the New Testament to translate the Hebrew word qualal, which referred to the Israelite 'assembly.'"
Since the autographs of the New Testament were written in Greek, where does this guy get off saying that the New Testament was translated from Hebrew?
There are a lot of straw man arguments he uses to denigrate the office of pastor. He's just a disgruntled parishioner who thinks he can undo 2000 years of tradition by starting his own.
Today we have seminaries and require Pastors to have credentials, but from an Apostolic Era perspective is a Pastor all that different from an Elder? The early church did not elevate their Pastors/Elders above the congregation that is something that developed over time. I know for me I prefer a Pastor who is a friend as well as a confident and counselor.
I think churches make a terrible mistake when they elevate their Pastors above the congregation. Is it denigrating to think of a Pastor as an equal?
The only appeal I see in this is if the individual doesn't think they can take everything straight to Jesus Christ.
To me it is more a role thing. I am an elder for my Pastor, In church I do submit to his authority. If he tells me how to run my business forget it, unless I am doing something that harms my relationship with my Lord Jesus Christ. The only grounds for Pastors to be removed should be Heresy or Immoral life.
My Pastor helps me grow in Faith. My Pastors are the ones who introduced me to My Lord Jesus Christ in an intimate, in the now, being not having or wanting, relationship way.
Who should determine that?
Jon Zens, the author who is the subject of this thread, argues that Pastors are unbiblical and unnecessary. He would prefer to have a church led by nobody in particular.
I personally believe that the Pastor needs to be in a superior position to the congregation just as the Captain of a ship needs to be in a superior position to the crew. Somebody has to guide the ship and somebody has to take the responsibility for steering the vessel in the right direction.
What the author of this book suggests would create ecclesiastical anarchy.
There is a hierarchy that needs to be followed. As Christians we submit out will to Christ, but as congregants, we ought to submit ourselves to the authority of the pastor. If we don't like that pastor, then we can leave.
But both the burden and the responsibility for the order in the church must fall upon someone and that burden and responsibility belong to the pastor. He will be held accountable for his leadership.
A ship full of captains is no better than a ship with no captain. Both vessels are doomed in a storm.
Exactly, Two or three witnesses? Matthew 18? God?
I agree
I think churches make a terrible mistake when they elevate their Pastors above the congregation. Is it denigrating to think of a Pastor as an equal?
Agree Pastors/Elders are the same and you cannot have one man referenced as as your Pastor and a different man referenced as Elder.
But when you have men selected as Elders/Pastors the New Testiment does elevate them to a degree:
Acts 20:28
28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
1 Timothy 5:17
17 Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine.
1 Thessalonians 5:12
12 And we urge you, brethren, to recognize those who labor among you, and are over you in the Lord and admonish you, 13 and to esteem them very highly in love for their work’s sake. pBe at peace among yourselves
Amen.
Because we want a king to rule over us whose a man and not a God...
you do realize that the person that warned Israel about wanting a King, was in fact Israels spiritual leader Samuel the prophet or preacher, and of course his job was to lead them in following the Lord which is the job of any good pastor, just thought you ought to know that it was a preacher warning the people about following man and not God!
I agree with this! I am an elder but I assist the Pastor. In my case there were three elders like me and 3 elders that thought they serve the congregation. The politics was incredible.
Israel, using common sense, rejected Samuel. Samuel, using common sense, wanted his sons to take over. He was old and His sons were useless. Israel rejected God and God gave them over to their desire to restrain them. David was always God’s Prince to shepherd his People. King Saul was full of fear and no Faith. He was a curse to Israel.
This is one of those rare times we disagree. The raising of clerics to a status above the congregation has led to some of the worst heresies in Christianity. The problem with this is that as a hierarchy is established and more and more authority is placed in a few when those at the top embrace a heresy the rest of the church is compelled to follow.
I think the Apostolic Era model of pastors/elders being chosen from the congregation is the better example. The pastors are subject to the elders and in turn the congregation. The congregation follows the pastor because of the authority granted to him by the elders and the congregation itself. In this model it is much harder for heresy to grow beyond any one congregation.
I personally believe that the Pastor needs to be in a superior position to the congregation just as the Captain of a ship needs to be in a superior position to the crew.
Having the lead does not mean superiority, or absolute authority over a congregation.
Somebody has to guide the ship and somebody has to take the responsibility for steering the vessel in the right direction.
Jesus Christ has given us the Holy Spirit to guide us and we have the Scriptures. The problem with an elevated clergy is the congregation tends not to first search Scripture, or seek guidance from God.
Your position is to protect the flock from the evil Pastor which of course is possible. If I run into an evil Pastor I do not attend that church. My experience is exactly the opposite. The flock is both weeds and wheat. Demons also float amongst them. When the word of God is preached and some become uncomfortable with ears not tickled watch out!
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