Presbyterians, Change Hearts & Minds, Begin Ordaining Gays

Religion Dispatches ^ | 8 Jul 2011 | MARYANN MCKIBBEN DANA

[Cronos]

It’s official. As of July 10, after a 15-year struggle, qualified gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people can be ordained as clergy and officers in the Presbyterian Church (USA). After 24 presbyteries flipped from previous “no” votes, a total of 97 approved amendment 10A; well over the 87 required for the change.

This victory finally removed exclusionary language from the Book of Order, which required “fidelity within the covenant of marriage between a man and a woman, or chastity in singleness.” The old language also required prospective ministers and officers to repent of “any self-acknowledged practice which the confessions call sin”—a list that includes transgressions as varied as usury, “undue delay of marriage,” and “immoderate use of meat.” (What now for patrons of Brazilian steakhouses?)

Of course, the struggle for full acceptance of LGBT people began way before efforts to repeal the so-called “fidelity and chastity” rule. Many folks mark the 1974 General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church as the beginning of the movement for LGBT equality in the denomination, when David Bailey Sindt held up a sign asking, “Is anyone else out there gay?”

[Cronos]

The old language also required prospective ministers and officers to repent of “any self-acknowledged practice which the confessions call sin”—a list that includes transgressions as varied as usury, “undue delay of marriage,” and “immoderate use of meat.”

-- I think they're making this up to show how homosexuality should be "accepted"....

[Cronos]

But all Christians be aware of how this happened is in the last paragraph

Ultimately, Kirby says, organizing comes down to three basic things: “Get Out The Vote, Get Out The Vote, Get Out The Vote.” And every vote counts. As Pratt Keyes noted in an internal memo for Covenant Network: “Last time the vote was 192-125 in our presbytery, and this time it was 152-152 [which counts as a “no” vote]. A huge and surprising difference… I don’t know about you, but if I’d thought we could get that close, I’d have beaten the bushes harder.”

The gays persistently hit the voting button, over and over again. And the Main-stream-Media (the same guys who distort the words of any Christian leader) played up with the "gay is normal" and slowly, the vote changed -- democracy has its limitations when it becomes mob-rule and controlled-mob-rule in particular

[353FMG]

“Get Out The Vote, Get Out The Vote, Get Out The Vote.”

.
I had no idea that in the Presbyterian Church one can vote on what one wants to believe.

Wow, is there still need for a Bible?

[randog]

Wow, is there still need for a Bible?

Sounds like they voted that out a long time ago.

[RecoveringPaulisto]

The real Presbyterian Churches in North America:

The Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church (ARPC)
The Canadian Reformed Churches (CanRC)
The Reformed Church of Quebec (ERQ)
The Free Reformed Churches of North America (FRCNA)
The Heritage Reformed Congregations (HRC)
The Korean American Presbyterian Church (KAPC)
The Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC)
The Presbyterian Church in America (PCA)
The Presbyterian Reformed Church (PresRC)
The Reformed Church in the United States (RCUS)
The Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America (RPCNA)
The United Reformed Churches in North America (URCNA)

http://www.naparc.org/member-churches/

Notice that the PC(USA) is not on the list.

[goodnesswins]

UH....MISLEADING title...I am SURE that the Presbyterian Church of America does NOT believe this, and will not change. PCUSA is a DIFFERENT story.

[MarkBsnr]

It’s official. As of July 10, after a 15-year struggle, qualified gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people can be ordained as clergy and officers in the Presbyterian Church (USA). After 24 presbyteries flipped from previous “no” votes, a total of 97 approved amendment 10A; well over the 87 required for the change.

Whee. We're also seeing the evolution of the PCA and the OPC, as well as all the other Protestant mainstream groups. Seems that the Catholic Church is the only Church of Christ. As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be; world without end. Amen.

[RedMDer]

There you are. Click the pic!

[Cronos]

True, this is not supported by the EPC either. Though I think the EPC made a mistake recently in passing a vote to allow pastoresses

[MarkBsnr]

Notice that the PC(USA) is not on the list.

Would the entire membership of your list even fill a small hockey arena?

[MamaDearest]

The old language also required prospective ministers and officers to repent of “any self-acknowledged practice which the confessions call sin”—a list that includes transgressions as varied as usury, “undue delay of marriage,” and “immoderate use of meat.”

And they wonder why so many people stay home and don't go to church...... Home churching cannot be far behind.

[MarkBsnr]

-- I think they're making this up to show how homosexuality should be "accepted"....

The Spartans had a strategy to deal with them: they staffed the the kamikaze storm troops with them.

[Cronos]

Unfortunately the PCUSA is the largest contingent at 2 million, while those on your list are 30,000 17,000 3,000 4,500 2,000 20,000 350,000 etc for the ARPC, CANRC, ERQ, FRCNA, HRC, KAPC, OPC, PCA, PRESRC etc with the largest being the PCA at 350,000 —> together they come up to about half a million, less than 25% of the size of the Presbyterian Church in the USA

[Cronos]

btw, what exactly is the difference between the Presbtyerian Reformed Church (PresRC), the Reformed Church in the US (RCUS) and the Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America (RPCNA)? They all sound like juggling of the same few words

[chickenlips]

You can add the Evangelical Presbyterian Church (EPC) to the list of those parting ways with PCUSA.

[ReformedBeckite]

I had no idea that in the Presbyterian Church one can vote on what one wants to believe.

Pretty much any denomination that has congregational voting will eventually vote on what they want to believe in relationship to what is popular theology for their culture. It's movement toward liberal theology starts at a slow glacier speed but eventually speeds up till it runs over the denomination.

[RecoveringPaulisto]

RPCNA is a cappela psalmody only, and that differentiates them from the other Reformed Presbyterians. Reformed Presbyterians come from the Scottish Covenanter movement, while Reformed churches are from the Continental Reformation. Actually, simply "Reformed" or simply "Presbyterian" churches have more in common than either do with Reformed Presbyterians, but all-in-all they aren't much different. We all read each others' confessions of faith in church, so in the United States you wouldn't know which one you were in unless you were some of the more mainstream evangelical PCA churches or a capella RPCNA churches.

As far as numbers go, you also have to incorporate that about 25-33% of the PC(USA) is conservative. Also, liberal Presbyterians don't attend church as often, and church attendance is high (over 90% in many congregations) in conservative Presbyterian churches. So, there are probably more conservative evangelical Presbyterians at church on most Sundays than liberal Presbyterians.

[RecoveringPaulisto]

They aren’t in NAPARC because they accept women’s ordination to the eldership. They are more generic evangelicals than Reformed.

[anniegetyourgun]

Sign of the times.

[yefragetuwrabrumuy]

Yahveh and Jesus were so boring and patriarchal, and so intolerant of infant sacrifice. Presbyterians can now make their crops fertile with his help.