Posted on 05/21/2011 4:46:26 AM PDT by marbren
Camping is a victim of replacement theology. IMHO the lie of replacement theology is almost as insidious as idolatry. The key to holistic understanding of Bible prophecy is to understand the role of Israel in it. God keeps his promises to Israel. This is a model to the rest of us that he will keep his promises to us as well.
A majority of the church going world has been victimized. I believed the lie for 35 years. During the past 20 I have been seeking the truth and only recently did I stop saying IMHO replacement theology is a lie and replaced it with: Replacement theology is a lie dropping the IMHO. For those that do not know, Replacement theology is the lie that the Church has replaced Israel in God’s plan.
The church was polluted by Replacement theology early on. Origen and Augustine, early Fathers of the church, were the first to muddy up the scriptures in this way when they arrogantly took on the mantle of Israel for themselves. Martin Luther apparently did not study it and this lead to his anti-Semitism and Hitler. In many ways IMHO it is like a reverse of the circumcision party that led to Acts 15.
This replacement theology lie has lead to the church we have today. Everyone is running around not knowing what is happening in these end times we are in. The truth is The Church, the Bride of Christ, has a role and Israel has a role. Think of men and women, children and parents, husbands and wives, angels and people, dogs and cats, sheep and goats, wheat and tares. All these have roles God invented.
So the solution: Open your Bible, drop your preconceived notions and open your mind, ask God to reveal the truth about all this Israel stuff written in the Bible. The Lord Jesus Christ is central in it all. Gods Grace and Mercy is incredible, He does all the work. Faith and hope and love permeate the entire Bible and the greatest of these is love.
Any Old Testament Scripture which applies to the Jews, such as what I've repeatedly posted on this thread, apply only to the Jewish people. Since the Church had not been established at that time, the Scriptures which obviously are meant for the Jewish people can apply to no other. Romans 11:1 is referring to the Jewish people.
A question regarding the general: Are the Scriptures as a whole addressed chiefly to the Jews or to the whole of mankind?
There are Scriptures which are specifically for the Jews an no one else. Salvation Scripture is for all of mankind.
Thank you in advance for your response. I am not trying to trap you, only to understand you. For at this point, I do not.
Thank you for your polite post. It's not hard to understand. It just takes an acceptance that God has different plans for His chosen people, the Jews, and for those who are grafted into and adopted into Christ's family, the Church. It just takes an acceptance that God has not thrown away His chosen people, but, as God puts it, "I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous", and "For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,“THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.” “THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.” (Romans 11:11; Romans 11: 25-27)
That is all that is required to understand. That while God has taken for Himself a people from among the Gentiles, Scripture is inarguable that God is not finished with the Jews, and has not thrown them to the side in favor of the Church. The Church and Israel are two separate entities with two separate purposes in the economy of God.
When the evil one or his representatives misuse the Bible, or imply that it is unclear, Jesus teaches us that we must look more deeply into the written Word, not away from it.
“You nullify the Word of God for the sake of your tradition” (Matthew 15:6).
The real authority for Rome is neither Scripture nor tradition, but the church.
I will depend on Sola Scriptura over Sola ecclesia every time.
In the RCC tradition contradicts tradition. For example, the tradition of the Roman church teaches that the pope is the head of the church, a bishop over all bishops. But Gregory the Great, pope and saint at the end of the ancient church period, said that such a teaching came from the spirit of Antichrist (“I confidently affirm that whosoever calls himself sacerdos universalis, or desires to be so called by others is in his pride a forerunner of Antichrist”) [Cited in Cambridge Medieval History, section written by W. H. Hutton, edited by H. M. Gwatkin and J. P. Whitney,(New York: The MacMillan Co., 1967) 11:247.]
If the RCC continues on it’s current path one could easily see that they could travel the same road as Islam, Mormons, or any other “religion” who follows some man who says he has some new revelation.
When I post the same Scripture over and over that God will bring His people back to Him and will save all of Israel and you repeatedly deny that Scripture and repeatedly claim that God is done with the Jews, you are anti-Jewish.
It's as simple as that. At least have the courage of your convictions and be honest about what you believe.
Before you laugh so hard you bust a gut, please know that not all of us non-Catholics "attack" y'all as not being Christian. By the same token, you should not prejudge Christians who are not Catholic as being such.
Irenaeus was a very early Christian and the word at that time "catholic" meant the universal, orthodox faith handed down from the Apostles. The Roman Catholic Church did not even exist under that name but was simply one of the many local congregations of believers. I hope you understand this salient point.
Romans 11 - “all Israel will be saved” = believers in Jesus, who lived in the OT and since the cross.
you admitted the 17th century rabbi is in hell, so i guess he wasn’t part of the Israel of Romans 11, was he?
That does not negate that fact that God has a plan for His chosen people which involves purifying them through the Tribulation and bringing them back into a relationship with Himself and, as He puts it, "all Israel will be saved".
Your repeatedly-stated claim that God is done with the Jews and the Church has replaced Israel has absolutely no Scriptural support and you have been able to give me no Scripture to support your assertion.
So, no, you haven't gotten anywhere. Until you repent of your replacement theology, you not only will not get anywhere, you will be in a state of enmity with God.
"I will bless them that bless thee and curse them that curse thee" (Genesis 12:3). That's part of the eternal, everlasting, never-ending Abrahamic Covenant and it applies to everyone.
when you think about it, the real authority for you is not the Scriptures, Tradition nor the Church, it is YOU!
You are Pope CynicalBear I and you believe whatever you want!! You may use the Catholic Scriptures as an excuse, but the final authority looks you in the mirror every day.
well if Gen 12:3 refers to corporate Israel, God must have cursed Jesus, since you admit He cursed Israel in Mark.
do you see how silly your theology gets?
what does “all Israel will be saved” mean to you? wasn’t the rabbi part of Israel in your mind?
In fact, Jesus has virtually nothing positive to say about tradition (cf. Matthew 4:4; 5:17-19; 15:2-9; 22:29-32).
I would point you even to early church fathers.
Cyril of Jerusalem (A.D. 315-386) is reflective of the overall view of the Fathers:
Concerning the divine and sacred Mysteries of the Faith, we ought not to deliver even the most casual remark without the Holy Scriptures; nor be drawn aside by mere probabilities and the artifices of argument. Do not then believe me because I tell thee of these things, unless thou receive from the Holy Scriptures the proof of what is set forth: for this salvation, which is our faith, is not by ingenious reasonings, but by proof from the Holy Scriptures....In these articles we comprehend the whole doctrine of faith….For the articles of the Faith were not composed at the good pleasure of men, but the most important points chosen from all Scriptures, make up the one teaching of the Faith….This Faith, in a few words, hath enfolded in its bosom the whole knowledge of godliness contained both in the Old and New Testaments. Behold, therefore, brethren and hold the traditions (2 Thes. 2:15) which ye now receive, and write them on the table of your hearts....Now heed not any ingenious views of mine; else thou mayest be misled; but unless thou receive the witness of the prophets concerning each matter, believe not what is spoken; unless thou learn from Holy Scripture....receive not the witness of man.
I would suggest that today’s RCC has become an apostate church having strayed far from the teachings of Christ and the Apostles. The council of Trent and Vatican II were devastating to the original intent. One could even make the argument that it is the whore of Revelation.
The Catholic Church is the same as in St Irenaeus’s time, it still is the universal,Apostolic, Orthodox Faith. Same doctrines, same apostolic succession of bishops. In fact, you should read the list Irenaeus provides of the bishops of Rome from Peter to his day to prove apostolic succession. of course, you don’t believe in apostolic succession, do you?
If the physical Kingdom where Jesus will sit on a Throne and rule the Nations was here right now, there wouldn't be anyone blind to it...
If you are trying to imply that the person wearing the dress with the red hat and shoes is somehow akin to Jesus, you are the one who is duped...
When THAT Kingdom shows up, the Throne will be in Jerusalem, not Italy...
As far as the spiritual Kingdom where all believers who make up the Body of Christ, the church, are indwelt with the Holy Spirit, THAT Kingdom is here right now...
So which Kingdom are you referring to???
Amen! God will not be mocked.
absolutely, Sacred Tradition must be in accord with Sacred Scriptures and Sacred Scriptures had to be in accord with Sacred Tradition in order for the Church to include the book in the canon. you don’t understand that they both have Divine Revelation in common, so together they make up the Word of God. The Thessalonians accepted this, not sure why you don’t.
I have given you none of my personal views. I have quoted scripture and the church fathers. Can you show me one personal view of mine that was not backed by scripture?
Um yeah. So what? Jesus cursed Israel for their disobedience and judged them through the diaspora. That diaspora has been coming to an end since the 1800s. This isn't rocket science.
do you see how silly your theology gets?
Silly? You can't possibly be serious. Your "theology" involves denying most, if not all, of Scripture. I guess I'd call that godless. I take Jesus Christ at His word that He would disperse the Jewish people after the destruction of Jerusalem for their sin and disobedience and I believe God when He says He will bring them back from around the world to their own land and then I see it happening in my lifetime and I know I was right to believe God and not deny what He says.
Only a fool would call that "silly". Why don't you carry your "theology" to it's logical end and start hosting Aryan Nation meetings in your living room?
what does “all Israel will be saved” mean to you? wasn’t the rabbi part of Israel in your mind?
Do you believe anything God says? You call yourself a follower of Jesus Christ yet you call Him a liar every chance you get. Is there anything that God has said that you believe?
ok, you think Scripture is your authority and not you?
when Jesus said, This is My Body” did he mean “This is My Body” or “This represents My Body”?
remember, Scripture is your authority, right?
“um yeah, so what”
so what? God curses those that curse Israel in your world, you admit Jesus cursed Israel in Mark, so God had to have cursed Jesus and all you can say is “um yeah, so what”
stop playing the game liberals play and try and silence me with false charges of anti-semitism, homey don’t play that game.
you still haven’t answered what does “all Israel being saved” mean to you. wasn’t my 17th century rabbi, who you had to admit is in hell, wasn’t he part of Israel and therefore in your mind, heir to all the promises made in the OT?
So would you point out for me where to find the ascension of Mary in scripture?
Oh, and while you’re at it could you clarify the following differences as well?
(1) The Bible teaches that the office of bishop and presbyter are the same office (Titus 1:5-7), but tradition says they are different offices.
(2) The Bible teaches that all have sinned except Jesus (Romans 3:10-12, Hebrews 4:15), but tradition says that Mary was sinless.
(3) The Bible teaches that Christ offered His sacrifice once for all (Hebrews 7:27, 9:28, 10:10), but tradition says that the priest sacrifices Christ on the altar at mass.
(4) The Bible says that we are not to bow down to statues (Exodus 20:4, 5), but tradition says that we should bow down to statues.
(5) The Bible says that all Christians are saints and priests (Ephesians 1:1; 1 Peter 2:9), but tradition says that saints and priests are special castes within the Christian community.
(6) The Bible says that Jesus is the only Mediator between God and man (1 Timothy 2:5), but tradition says Mary is co-mediator with Christ.
(7) The Bible says that all Christians should know that they have eternal life (1 John 5:13), but tradition says that all Christians cannot and should not know that they have eternal life.
Surely you can point me to the scripture that contradicts other scripture.
You mean your 'later', Catholic church fathers who veered away from the early 'sola scripture' fathers?...We have read the later church fathers' works and read the Bible as well...They do not line up with the Bible or the early church fathers; ergo, no Catholic religion for me...
I suggest you dump your later church fathers and dive into the scriptures for some real truth...
first of all, Mary was assumed, Jesus asceneded. One is a created being, and Jesus is God. tell me where the Scriptures say Mary wasn’t assumed?
as far as your other 7 points, you are wrong on your claims of what “tradition” says. Learn the Catholic Faith first, then we can have a discussion. Your 7 points prove you listened to some anti-Catholic preacher, who himself doesn’t understand Catholic teaching.
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