As for the isconsin bishops, I kn ow they already weighed in with some sort of equivocating ecclesiastical bafflegab...
:o/
So, Ideas! Resources! Arguments! Counter-arguments! Ad maiorem Dei gloriam! Anybody got anything to offer?
The last post about how Walker sold himself for $43,000 to Koch, I’d follow-up with a list of how much money public sector unions spent in 2010.
So please help me think this through!
The argument is mute, They are trying to say teacherswho are being paid more than the privet sector will end up with less? BS first of all they are and will be paid more than privet sector event with the change. Second point is whom do they think is paying the bill for those high wages now? Some no faced corporations? It is those people in the privet sector making less than these coveting rouges.
I think you are misapprehending the situation. Priests and Ministers who argue in favor of “social justice” are impervious to rational discussions of fact and principle. They are possessed of a demonic heresy. They want to be as Gods, rather than to worship the one true God. The only thing to say to such creatures is “Get thee behind me, Satan!”
I am sorry I cannot help you from a theology standpoint as my points would be more evangelical than many Catholics would typically tolerate. But I will try from a semi-Secular Perspective.
Wisconsin (and virtually all states) have a budget problem in 2011. Voters in most of these states have voted in politicians that would not raise taxes. That leaves two options to balance a budget: pay each worker less, or fire a bunch of workers. Which is the more socially just -- give more money to a few and leave many desititue, or share the bounty from the Lord evenly among all?
I will try to present the truth as honestly as I can as I understand it.
Wisconsin is a government and should not be expected to provide for every need of its citizens. We are each responsible for providing for our needs and voluntarily helping others in need through our church or other non profit organizations. Americans are very generous to others.
Wisconsin and other governments has elected to provide public education funded by the taxpayers. WI provided civil service protection to government workers in the early 1900’s. The federal government under FDR establish laws for private unions and exempted governments. Later WI allowed public unions and collective bargaining. The Federal government does not allow collective bargaining.
These unions have bargained for wages, benefits and work rules. Some of this has been beneficial for all. Yet there was a strong tendency to give into the union demands by both Democratic and Republican administrations which tended to raise the cost to the taxpayer higher than the general wages and benefits of the community. It is always easier to give away OPM - other peoples money (taxpayers).
The unions seem to align with the Democrats and a good part of the union dues comes back to the politicians in the form of campaign contributions.
The cost of wages, benefits and work rules have gotten out of control and Wisconsin and the local governments can no longer pay for these costs.
It is time to reduce the costs, but also to correct the procedures that give the unions the political power to take more than their fair share.
I believe Gov Walker is a honest leader that is trying to protect the interests of all Wisconsinites.
There is too much shouting and corruption in WI and we need to understand the issues and not just listen to the loudest rhetoric.
For example, there is a 2000 report which documents a half billion dollar waste by WEAC on the health insurance premiums that they control without competitive bids.
http://www.uncoverage.net/2011/02/public-employee-unions-facts-figures-history/
Public-Employee Unions: Facts, Figures, History
This site may give answers to questions.
They also say that NO ONE should be forced to join a union as a condition for employment.
Stiff teachers. That’s a laugh.
We know how much they make on average per community. We also know how much on average their health insurance is and how much “we” contribute to their pensions.
They fare a lot better on average than the average private sector worker in Wisconsin, who, by the way, ADDS TO THE STATE’S BOTTOM LINE PRODUCTIVITY.
If the teachers don’t like it they can quit. However when this passes, none will. They know they will still have excellent job security and excellent benefits and excellent retirement plans, and more civil service law job protection than most private workers can only dream of. Their union bosses will still be making hundreds of thousands of dollars, far more than the Governor of this state. School administrators will still be making betwee 100-200 grand a year depending where they are. We’ve got the stats. We know who’s making what.
Kind of why the whining by these folks saying they have it so hard, ain’t working, they are whining to the folks paying their salaries and in general, have it significantly harder than they do - even after this bill passes.
Statement Regarding the Rights of Workers and the Value of Unions
Most Reverend Jerome E. Listecki, archbishop of Milwaukee and president of the Wisconsin Catholic Conference, has issued the following statement regarding the rights of workers and the value of unions.
February 16, 2011
The Church is well aware that difficult economic times call for hard choices and financial responsibility to further the common good. Our own dioceses and parishes have not been immune to the effects of the current economic difficulties. But hard times do not nullify the moral obligation each of us has to respect the legitimate rights of workers. As Pope Benedict wrote in his 2009 encyclical, Caritas in veritate:
Governments, for reasons of economic utility, often limit the freedom or the negotiating capacity of labor unions. Hence traditional networks of solidarity have more and more obstacles to overcome. The repeated calls issued within the Church’s social doctrine, beginning with Rerum Novarum [60], for the promotion of workers’ associations that can defend their rights must therefore be honored today even more than in the past, as a prompt and far-sighted response to the urgent need for new forms of cooperation at the international level, as well as the local level. [#25]
It does not follow from this that every claim made by workers or their representatives is valid. Every union, like every other economic actor, is called to work for the common good, to make sacrifices when required, and to adjust to new economic realities.
However, it is equally a mistake to marginalize or dismiss unions as impediments to economic growth. As Pope John Paul II wrote in 1981, “[a] union remains a constructive factor of social order and solidarity, and it is impossible to ignore it.” (Laborem exercens #20, emphasis in original)
It is especially in times of crisis that “new forms of cooperation” and open communication become essential. We request that lawmakers carefully consider the implications of this proposal and evaluate it in terms of its impact on the common good. We also appeal to everyone –lawmakers, citizens, workers, and labor unions – to move beyond divisive words and actions and work together, so that Wisconsin can recover in a humane way from the current fiscal crisis.
I would suggest a stronger statement on the abuse of the system by the unions that hurt the worker and the taxpayer.
Unions have abused their power in demanding benefits and controlling participation through their own insurance company without competitive bidding and have wasted at least a half billion dollars over last 10 years.
They also abuse work rules and encourage illegal strikes.
Workers shouldn’t be forced to join the union or pay union dues.
Should the Catholic Church stand for true justice and truth or just issue a watered down position paper that doesn’t really address the issues? Is it divisive when one speaks the truth?
The deal Wisconsin made with its state employees was simple: Accept lower wages than you could get in the private sector now. . . a fact not in evidence . . .
in return for better pensions and health-care benefits when you retire. Now Walker wants to renege on that deal.I don't think private schools pay as well as public schools do. In fact, I was shocked to learn that a middle school history teacher was making significantly more than I as an engineer was making. And he retired young, so I take it that his pension benefits must have been OK as well.Now I had the impression that he was quite good at his job, and that's OK - but don't tell me that he was making a huge sacrifice taking that P.S. teaching gig. This was NY State, not Wisconsin - but I question whether there was all that much difference, given what we're hearing about WI. The purpose of the union is to make sure that the teachers - good, bad, and indifferent - all get well paid. Well, sorry - you can make sacrifices and do good for the children, or you can do well - but you can't have your cake and eat it too.
>> So America’s various governmental entities are looking for ways to avoid defaulting on their debt
Contrary to the prevailing whim here on FR, we should raise the debt ceiling if to avoid the risk of default with the understanding the expansion would be contracted ASAP.