It's gods: all the way down...
Posted on 01/14/2011 9:35:29 AM PST by Colofornian
I’ve been reading The Plan of Salvation: Understanding Our Divine Origin and Destiny by Matthew B. Brown (Covenant Communications, 2007). I’m not finished reading it yet, but the opening section, “Where Did I Come From,” favorably impresses me. Identified on the book jacket as a “respected gospel scholar,” Mr. Brown has written ten non-fiction books, and authored numerous articles and lectures for the LDS apologetics organizations FAIR and FARMS (now the Neal A. Maxwell Institute of Religious Scholarship).
The reason Mr. Brown’s The Plan of Salvation impresses me is the book’s straightforward presentation of classic Mormon doctrine. Consider some section headings and quotes included in just the first seven pages of Chapter 1:
[To the question "Is God my Father?"] “President George Q. Cannon answers, ‘Yes. God has revealed it, that we are literally His children, His offspring;…that He begot us;…we are his children descended from Him!’” (p. 7)
“The enormous potential of each of God’s offspring was referred to in an official statement made by the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This statement, which was prepared in 1909, reads in part: ‘Man is the child of God, formed in the divine image and endowed with divine attributes, and even as the infant son of an earthly father and mother is capable in due time of becoming a man, so the undeveloped offspring of celestial parentage is capable, by experience through ages and eons, of evolving into a god.’” (p. 8 )
“THE ORIGIN AND NATURE OF GOD…God the Father is an exalted man.” (p. 8 )
“God [the Father] had a progenitor.” (p. 9; brackets added for clarification)
“Elder Orson Pratt taught this very same doctrine. He said, ‘We were begotten by our Father in Heaven; the person of our Father in Heaven was begotten on a previous heavenly world by His Father; and again, He was begotten by a still more ancient Father; and so on, from generation to generation, from one heavenly world to another still more ancient.’” (p. 9)
“God Has Experienced Mortality. Joseph Smith told the Saints in Nauvoo, Illinois, ‘[I am] going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. These [concepts] are incomprehensible to some but are the first principle[s] of the gospel — to know that we may converse with Him as one man with another and that He was once as one of us and was on a planet as Jesus was in the flesh.’” (p. 10; brackets retained from the original]
“A statement made by President Joseph F. Smith is the most explicit to be found on this topic. He said, ‘The Son, Jesus Christ, grew and developed into manhood the same as you or I, as likewise did God, His Father, grow and develop to the Supreme Being that He now is. Man was born of woman; Christ, the Savior, was born of woman; and God, the Father, was born of woman.’” (p. 11)
“God Has Received Temple Ordinances…Wilford Woodruff informed the Latter-day Saints of his day that God the Father ‘had His endowments long ago; it is thousands and millions of years since He received His blessings.’” (p. 12)
"God the Father has a divine Spouse. Elder Erastus Snow taught that ‘there can be no God except He is composed of the man and woman united, and there is not in all the eternities that exist, nor ever will be, a God in any other way. …There never was a God, and there never will be in all [the] eternities, except they are made of these two component parts; a man and a woman, the male and the female.’” (p. 13; ellipsis and brackets retained from the original)
“God Has Been Resurrected…President Brigham Young alluded to this same precept [that God the Father had laid down His life and took it up again just as Jesus Christ did]: ‘The Father, after He had once been in the flesh, and lived as we live, obtained His exaltation, attained to thrones, gained the ascendancy over principalities and powers, and had the knowledge and power to create — to bring forth and organize the elements upon natural principles. This He did after His ascension, or His glory, or His eternity, and was actually classed with the Gods, with the Beings who create, with those who have kept the celestial law while in the flesh, and again obtained their bodies. Then He was prepared to commence the work of creation, as the scriptures teach.’” (p. 13; brackets added for clarification)
When non-Mormons draw attention to many of these classic LDS doctrines or the quotes Mr. Brown has employed for support, Mormons accuse them of using unofficial sources or pulling the quotes out of context. Therefore, I sincerely thank Mr. Brown for his candor in presenting Mormonism. It’s refreshing to see a “respected gospel scholar” offering the same information that critics of Mormonism have long detailed, albeit for a different purpose.
It would be great if every person thinking about joining the LDS Church could read this book (or at least the first section) before making his or her decision regarding membership — because there’s a lot more to Mormonism than skateboarding and Family Home Evening. Proverbs 20:25 says, “It is a snare for a man to say rashly, ‘It is holy!’ And after the vows to make inquiry.” There is a wealth of wisdom in those words.
ALL/Lurkers: Due to the bait & switch tactics of Mormon missionaries & most Lds apologists, you usually won't hear the "Mormon meat" of what they teach. In refreshing candor, we have an Lds apologist hear, under the publishing arm of the organization that merged Lds FAIR & FARMS -- the two most prominent Lds apologist organizations -- provides us with concessions of classic Mormonism:
(1) “THE ORIGIN AND NATURE OF GOD…God the Father is an exalted man.” (p. 8 )
[Pay no attention to the smoke & thunder wizard of a man behind that screen...he's no wizard...just a man!]
(2) "...God, the Father, was born of woman.’” (p. 11)
[Did y'all know that God the Father had his own Mary??? Well, that is classic Mormonism!]
(3) “God the Father has a divine Spouse."
[That's right...and since Mormons teach that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are 3 distinct gods, better acknowledge Mormonism's fourth immediate god, Mom-god!]
(4) "There never was a God, and there never will be in all [the] eternities, except they are made of these two component parts; a man and a woman, the male and the female.’”
[Well, this, of course means, that the Mormon Father has a divine mother-in-law...and that mothers-in-law are "retro" eternally backwards!]
(5) In fact, per this Lds apologist, “God [the Father] had a progenitor.”
[IOW, Jesus had a grandpa on his heavenly father's side!]
(6) In fact, the Mormon divine genealogy didn't stop there...per an admission from this Lds apologist: “Elder Orson Pratt taught this very same doctrine. He said, ‘We were begotten by our Father in Heaven; the person of our Father in Heaven was begotten on a previous heavenly world by His Father; and again, He was begotten by a still more ancient Father; and so on, from generation to generation, from one heavenly world to another still more ancient.’” (p. 9)
[IOW, Jesus had some Kolobian great-grandpa, great-great grandpa, and the gods go back endlessly! Mormonism has no ultimate god!]
(7) "God Has Been Resurrected."
[So...per Mormonism...God the Father died...& then was resurrected]
(8) ‘Man is the child of God, formed in the divine image and endowed with divine attributes, and even as the infant son of an earthly father and mother is capable in due time of becoming a man, so the undeveloped offspring of celestial parentage is capable, by experience through ages and eons, of evolving into a god.’”
[That's right! Mormons do believe in "evolution" of a different sort -- a miracle even greater than the evolution-explaining naturalists: They believe you can evolve into a god, replete with your own divine wife or plural wives, your own planet or star, a daily commute to God's planet, eternal sex with your wife or wives so they can plop out spirit babies, who can then colonize another planet so that they can worship you, adore you & pray to you...and then the cycle starts all over again!]
Wouldn't that be "spouses?"
IB4PD
IB4PD
You know, that could be...Lds like to sing of mom-god (they have one hymn that mentions her -- written by Eliza Snow)...and they like to bandy her about behind the scenes...but they assume a few things...like there's only "one" her...
I mean think of how many spirit babes just one Mormon god-wife would have to bear just to populate planet earth!
And what Mormon god would tell Joseph Smith to sleep with his 17 yo live-in maid, Fanny, in early 1830s if, he, too, didn't "address" his maid or other "fair" maidens available to him?
IB4PD2
Ut Oh, there are a couple of lds posters that wont be happy that this lds writer agrees with what the (so called) antis are saying/quoting.
IB4PDSPAM
Now, of course, the "question" on the table is...is "Classic Mormonism" still taught and believed by contemporary Mormons?
Say...the younger generation of Mormons...what are they teaching the younger generation of Mormons? Still classic Mormonism?
Well, almost eight years ago, Lds elder Richard D. Allred was leading a BYU-Idaho devotional entitled "True Course - Destination Verified." (Feb. 17, 2003)
Within his message to young impressionable college students were these two lines:
-You are an heir to godhood (Galatians 4:7) and have the seeds of deity within you.
-You are a god in embryo (John 10:34). Source: True Course - Destinations Verified
You, see most of the public time -- when Lds just want to trot out their milk and not their meat...they'll reference the "heir" part above...but it'll be subtle...they won't usually say "heir to godhood." And they certainly won't pull one of the common "inside" Mormon references to your supposed internal godhood that like some New Ager, you need to "realize"--their oft' (internal) repeated reference to Mormons being "gods in embryo."
Now Allred cited John 10:34 about supposedly referencing people as "gods-in-embryo"...it doesn't say we are "embryo" anything divine there...Jesus said: Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
The John 10 reference by Jesus is to Psalm 82...where unjust judges who would die like men are referenced there as "gods." Whatever kind of "gods" Jesus is referencing there, they are "unjust" ones!
Even a well-internally respected Lds apostle & scholar, James E. Talmage, highlighted this in his book Jesus the Christ...Talmage explained John 10:34-36 under the heading: "Divinely Appointed Judges Called Gods-In Psalm 82:6. . . ." (James E. Talmage, Jesus The Christ, 501; 15TH ed.).
God "calling" someone a "god" for reasons of inherited authority doesn't = being a god by nature!
But when it comes to all things "inheritance" and "heir" -- Lds usually distort Biblical things. For example, note how Lds speaker Allred cited Gal. 4:7 -- yet continue reading to see what Gal. 4:7 really says!
Romans 8:17 references: "joint heirs with Christ" and "glorified together"
For a proper understanding of the concept of “heirs” or “co-heirs” as highlighted in the Bible, here's three relevant verses:
* 7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:7)
* 3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade—kept in heaven for you... (1 Peter 1:3-4)
* ...12giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light. 13For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. (Col. 1:12-14)
Now why are the apostle Paul's verses especially relevant to Mormonism's misinterpretation of what being an “heir” is?
Mormonism says being such an heir is reserved for married temple Mormons who work their way up the highest part of heaven.
But...
* ...the apostle Paul says the works-oriented never rise up above servant status; and that being an heir is reserved for sons (Gal. 4:7).
* ....Mormons are trying to justify themselves by their "worthiness"; the apostle Paul says we are "made" heirs by being justified by His grace (Titus 3:7)
* ...Mormons say this inheritance is worked for by temple rituals & other actions; but the apostle Paul says it's God who qualifies you (Col. 1:12)
* ...Mormons say this inheritance is deserved (God paying up what you worked for), but the apostle Peter said this "inheritance" kept in heaven is based only upon God's "great mercy" grounded in the resurrection of Jesus Christ. (1 Pet. 1:3-4)
...Mormons claim this inheritance is a climbing operation, where they pull themselves up by their own bootstraps & reach the highest peaks of heaven. The apostle Paul instead talks about inheritance (Col. 1:12) as a rescue operation, where God had to send His Son into a dark world to pull us out (Col. 1:13-14).
Finally, let's go to a common Mormon prooftext -- Romans 8:17...but let's properly back it up to Romans 8:15 as well for better context:
15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Mormons say EVERYBODY is God's children; the Bible says, no, only Jesus Christ is God's son -- yet God the Father has chosen to adopt many more as children. Mormons really don't know what to do with this concept of "adoption." It's completely foreign to their theology.
So being an heir is really tantamount to being an adopted child, another image the apostle Paul uses three times.
* An adopted child doesn't "work" for the highest degree of glory in his father's household. He is simply "received" into it.
* An adopted child doesn't do all of these temple rituals to qualify for heir status. No, the Father qualifies the adopted child.
* An adopted child doesn't rely upon works-worthiness to become an heir. No, he or she is completely at the "great mercy" and "grace" of his new family's father!
If Mormonism ran orphanages the way it operates religiously, all these orphans would have to jump through all kinds of hoops to get adopted...and that hoop-jumping would completely overshadow the gracious & merciful rescue operations of those who go out of their way to qualify these orphans.
It's gods: all the way down...
No... spice.
And just why NOT? You foul, Hateful BIGOT??
--MormonDude(I just PROVES that an APOSTATE spirit has gotten hold of them!)
You Abdominable Apostates KNOW that using actual Official MORMON Sources is forbidden by any others than TBM; don't you?
--MormonDude(Why do I have to continually EDUCATE you people?)
Yes.
Some of the admissions by Lds apologist Matthew Brown qualify for some Mormons under the categories of:
* "Letting the cat out of the bag."
* Or "putting meat before Gentile babes."
IOW, they agree with classical Mormonism. But they know it's not very palatable to Christians out there. And it certainly militates vs. the PR marketing efforts by Mormons that "hey, we're Christians, too!" [Kind of hard to convince anybody re: Brown's admissions that this is "Christianity" -- historic or "restored"]
I'd say, tho, that there's a few other Mormons out there who don't agree with all of classical Mormonism. These Mormons certainly don't want to critique dead & gone Lds general authorities; but they like to keep a straight-arm distance from them...
This has allowed for some cognitive dissonance in their own minds. They can tell themselves, "That was some older version of Mormonism...never officialized...never canonized. That's not what I believe."
Now, of course, I'd say a few of those are Lds FREEPERS.
And when they generically comment -- if they comment at all -- they essentially "dance" around this by hinting that when critics of Mormonism cite these quotations from Mormon authorities, they are wrestling them out of context.
And then they might point to a series of "true scoop" links.
Of course the irony is that a Mormon FREEPER might direct us to FAIR...and yet, according to the commentator of this thread: Mr. Brown has written ten non-fiction books, and authored numerous articles and lectures for the LDS apologetics organizations FAIR and FARMS (now the Neal A. Maxwell Institute of Religious Scholarship)!
(Yeah, I know. Life isn't FAIR...makes for a good new tagline, anyway)
IOW, they agree with classical Mormonism. But they know it's not very palatable to Christians out there. And it certainly militates vs. the PR marketing efforts by Mormons that "hey, we're Christians, too!"
(I was also going to add to this -- and failed to -- that one reason why Christian apologists have considered Masonry to be "occultic" is because of its "hidden" status...that once upon a time -- when the 30-something degrees of Masonic initiation wasn't available -- when you can't find out what they really teach...well, that is the classic Latin meaning for "occult" -- simply means "hidden.")
Likewise, many Lds want to keep their "meat" tucked away & hidden...They want newbies to be gradually initiated into accepting what is obviously terribly unpalatable.
You see, Mormons have acquired a taste for becoming gods and goddesses, for believing that Jesus and God the Father was once primordial goo-intelligences until they were spirit-born and THEN flesh-born...And that both went on to live a life til they died & resurrected...
The question is: Where is the real Mormon hunger & appetite for the Ultimate God?
Mormons: Don't you want to know, relate to, and live forever with the Ultimate God?
...the Author of Authority...
...The Lord of ALL lords, the GOD of all (false) gods...
...The KING of kings?
...The Buck stops here God who had no origin?
Robotman! Triple points awarded for all posts made in the next 24 hours!
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