There's a provocative piece up by Bryan Cross on the blog "Called to Communion". The opening grabbed my attention.
Posted on 11/03/2010 4:33:54 PM PDT by Salvation
There's a provocative piece up by Bryan Cross on the blog "Called to Communion". The opening grabbed my attention.
So we stand here and with open mouth stare heavenward and invent still other keys. Yet Christ says very clearly in Matthew 16:19 that He will give the keys to Peter. He does not say He has two kinds of keys, but He gives to Peter the keys He Himself has, and no others. It is as if He were saying: why are you staring heavenward in search of the keys? Do you not understand I gave them to Peter? They are indeed the keys of Heaven, but they are not found in Heaven. I left them on earth. Dont look for them in Heaven or anywhere else except in Peters mouth where I have placed them. Peters mouth is My mouth, and his tongue is My key case. His office is My office, his binding and loosing are My binding and loosing. Martin Luther [1]
Last year on Reformation Day we posted a sermon by Stanley Hauerwas on that very subject. A short time later I was sitting in a living room, talking with a life-long Protestant about the Catholic Church. This gentleman was doing most of the talking, and I was mostly listening, trying to understand him and his point of view more accurately. At one point he said, You know, I have a lot of respect for the Catholic Church, and for Catholics. They are good people, and they do a lot of good for our community. But the one thing that I find offensive about the Catholic Church is the arrogance of its claim to be the Church that Christ founded.
The arrogance question aside, this gentleman was more informed about the Catholic Churchs claims about herself than are most people. In my experience most Protestants are unaware of the Catholic Churchs claim to be the Church that Christ founded, the very Church referred to in Matthew 16 where Jesus changed Simons name to Peter, said to him, Upon this rock I will build my Church, and gave to him the keys of the Kingdom. From my experience, most Protestants suppose that the Catholic Church thinks of herself as just another Christian denomination. Upon learning that the Catholic Church claims to be the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church that Christ founded, they are utterly surprised and in some cases offended.[2] For example, when Responsa ad quaestiones was released in the summer of 2007, some Protestants were surprised by its contents, and others were offended by it.3
One reason for their taking offense is that many do not know that the Catholic Church has always believed and professed that she is the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church that Christ founded, and that any church or denomination or individual who is not in full communion with her is to some degree separated from the Church that Christ founded. For them, this teaching seemingly implies that non-Catholics are second-class citizens, when from their own point of view they are no less united to Christs Church than are Catholics. So their taking offense is understandable.
But typically those who find the Churchs claim offensive do so not because they have researched the history of the Catholic Church and concluded that it began at some point later than the events recorded in Acts 2, but because they have a qualitatively different conception of what the Church is. Theologically they oppose the very notion that some communion or institution is the one that Christ founded, referring to such a notion as sectarian or sectarianism. From their point of view, all those who love Jesus are equally members of the Church that Christ founded. They do not believe that Christ through His Apostles gave charge of His Church to an hierarchy of bishops in a perpetual line of succession having an essential unity that is essentially visible. In their view, the Church Christ founded is fundamentally an invisible union of all those who love Jesus, no matter what their denomination or tradition. From that point of view, the claim by one institution to be the Church that Christ founded can be offensive.[4]
Some Protestants who know of the Catholic Churchs claim to be the Church that Christ founded are not offended by this claim. They are not offended by it, because they remember Protestantisms historical origin in the Catholic Church. They remember that in the minds of the first Protestants, the intention was not to separate from the Catholic Church, but to reform the Catholic Church. For these first Protestants, their resulting separation from the Catholic Church was a kind of necessary evil, not intended to create one or many schisms from the Church, but to bring needed moral and doctrinal reform to the very same Church that Christ had founded. In the minds of those first Protestants, this separation was to persist only until the Catholic Church was sufficiently reformed, so that they could return to full communion with her. The present-day Protestants who remember this obviously do not believe that the Catholic Church is infallible; that is why they believe that they can justifiably be separated from her. But they do believe that the Catholic Church from which they are visibly separated is (or has the best claim to being the visible continuation of) the Church that Christ founded, and they look to be reunited to her as soon as she is sufficiently reformed.[5]
We invite converts to the Catholic faith to offer their opinions on this thread.
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I was raised RC....Tridentine Rite....Altar Boy....pondered the Priesthood....then came Vatican II and the Paul VI debacle of the hideous Novus Ordo....
I remember thinking, “where is the Blessed Sacrament?” and that there was no more “Gospel” or “Epistle” side of the alter but it had been reversed.
I went to College at Univ of KY..found the Newman Center...an they were doing insipid “Guitar” masses, etc and thought...”this stuff is cheap protestantism” and left the RCC...became unchurched for 6 years.
Then I had a “born again” experience watching a Charles Stanley sermon on 1 Cor 1: 18-25....and began a 27 year protestant journey throught the Church of Christ, Baptist, Reformed, PCA, Independent Baptist, “Bible” Churches, etc.....I landed in 5-point TULIP-ism of Supralapsarian variety and realized the 5th point “perseverence of the saints” meant that I MUST persevere...which conflicted with the first 4 points that were all God’s doing...and that Calvin taught “God sends strong delusion to the non-elect to better damn them” meant no one can have real assurance.
I also noted that 4 white walls and a 50 minute sermon wasn’t getting it done and that evangelical “services” were basically amateur entertainment venues of solo singing and jamming.
I found a traditional Anglican church (APA) and then longed again for the true Latin Mass which there were none where I lived....I found a SSPX and now attennd Solemn High Mass every week, take traditional sacraments (no communion in the hand) and am back to the true faith
When Do Protestants Know When to Return to Rome?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
when do catholics know when to return to constantinople?
Major airline discounts?
Personally, I'd go to Scotland first.
Not too keen on Italians, y'know...
Interesting article. For me the question became, “if we are the reformers, what exactly are we reforming about the Catholic church?”
You get down to the nitty gritty of it and the abuses which were brought up, at least the legitimate ones and not ‘differences in doctrine’, have been corrected. So the question then became who has it right on these points?
This quote by Luther was instrumental for me. If even he acknowledges that the Keys given by Christ had been given to the Church, then that leaves only two options. One, that the church cannot be salvaged, and two, if she can be salvaged, then there is no justification for the schism.
It’d right there in Matthew 18. He cannot appeal to the passage where Christ gives the keys to Peter, and at the same time reject Christ’s promises that the Gates of Hell shall not prevail.
As for the offensive argument, it’s not really offensive at all. Yes, it’s a provocative claim, but so is Christ’s resurrection.
“Rome teaches can be totally supported by what the Bible teaches...that is how they will know”
Ma’am. If group A has a bible, and group B has a bible, and they both say different things, how will they ever reconcile?
I too attend The Solemn High Mass every week. Its truly beautiful and brings honor and glory to God.
Quietly, Respectfully, Amen
You and I have very similar experiences. I was still an acolyte while in graduate school. I too hunger for the Latin Mass but I never left the RCC. I fugure that what makes the Church holy is not its people but its Founder. Its basic teachings have not changed — it only has become politically correct like every other institution in the West.
I'll pray that you come to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and leave watered down Christianity. behind.
Yeah, just imagine the Reverends Al Sharpton, Jeremiah Wright, and Jim Baker having to listen to their Bishop or Cardinal tell them what to do!
When it’s available for post-Muslim invasion viewing. If there’s anything left...
How presumptuous can you get. Someone has already answered, when Catholics return to Constantinople. Good answer. I submit, when Christianity returns to Judaism. The Rabbi’s think the same way about Christianity.
The divide between Catholics and Evangelicals is a sharp as the divide between Judaism and Christianity. The short answer is never.
As a Protestant, I'd say that I'd never left
I most fervently desire a reunion in body, mind, and spirit
between those who have chosen to disagree on “Vision”
That one might honor those who see differently, honorably,
Without necessarily agreeing on issues
that are on relatively little import
Welcome home.
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