Fire in the hole!
SnakeDoc
Posted on 10/07/2010 8:45:32 AM PDT by marshmallow
A couple days ago I blogged about a book purportedly about Catholic moral theology called “The Sexual Person” by two professors associated with Creighton University, and the US Bishops clear rebuke of the arguments presented therein.
Basically the authors deconstruct all Scriptural and magisterial sources of authority for moral reasoning by applying a radical historicism. In other words, “The biblical authors, the church fathers, and the popes just reflected the cultural norms of their day, plus they aren’t as smart as we are now, so we can disregard their views about sexuality.”
For me, reading the arguments from “The Sexual Person” were a blast from the past.
While I was in high school, and an ardent Dutch Calvinist, a report was made to my denomination’s synod from one of our sister denominations, concerning their committee on sexual morality. After years of study, this Calvinist denomination’s committee was unable to affirm almost any of traditional Christian moral teaching. The only principle remaining to guide one to moral sexual relations was “justice love.” Wherever “justice love” was present, sex was moral. They recommend that our denomination accept the same “principles” of “morality”—ones essential re-articulated now in “The Sexual Person.”
Looking over the reasoning our sister denomination was using, I realized their “hermeneutic” could be used to defeat any Scriptural teaching.
That was the beginning of a gradual dawning on me—which would eventually lead to Rome—of the realization that Scripture alone was not sufficient to conserve the deposit of the faith, because various hermeneutics could make Scripture say almost anything one wished.
One needs to be guided by tradition, but even tradition is not enough—there also has to be a living voice of the salvific community.
“When Scripture is disjoined from the living voice of the Church, it falls prey to the disputes of experts,” Benedict XVI says.
The living voice just spoke through the mouths of the US Bishops. I am thankful for them.
Too bad the fellow did not just examine the flaws in their “hermeneutic” and return to the real Reformed faith of Christ. Instead, he swallowed the gross error of the Roman cult proving once again that a dog returns to its vomit.
Are you proud of your vile attack on the professor’s character?
You know if people spent as much time giving true Christian witness as they did attacking other faiths, particularly ours, we could actually be a Godly nation. I wonder about people who spend all of their time and engery hating others.
Fire in the hole!
SnakeDoc
They did not “defeat” the Scripture, they defeated the people who were willing to let it be explained away. Anyone with a strong and present knowledge of the Scripture will not be led away.
Dusty Bibles produce weak and easily led sheep.
If saints could have changed this - the need to define ourselves against others - it would have been already been done hundreds or thousands of years ago. So, it's either part of our spiritual process or it's one of the games we play while here to grow and experience the fun of life.
He did examine the flaws in their hermeneutic but his point is not the flaws themselves.
His point is "on whose authority" is this hermeneutic flawed. You have one hermeneutic, he has another.
Who decides who's right?
No, don't say Scripture decides. It doesn't. Both sides are using Scripture to support their argument but both are using it in different ways.
There has to be a living authority.
If saints could have changed this - the need to define ourselves against others - it would have already been done hundreds or thousands of years ago. So, it's either part of our spiritual process or it's one of the games we play while here to grow and experience the fun of life. Like stones tumbled against each other - we wear off the hard edges...
Actually, if they knew a bit more about the cultural norms of Greek and Roman culture, they wouldn't say that. One of the reasons early Christians were repressed and suppressed was that they rejected the cultural norms of their time. As they continue to do. Christians were counter-cultural then as now, always building the cultural and challenging it at the same time.
Evidently it escaped Rome's notice...Jesus is that Living Authority.
Yes he is.
Unfortunately, when a dispute arises over Scripture, it's quite normal for both protagonists to invoke the name of Jesus, claim Divine inspiration and suggest that He speaks directly to them or that He has inspired their thoughts.
So where does that leave us?
Allow me.
It means we need a living, breathing human authority to safeguard the truth.
Now, that is pure horse pucky. If you actually believe the degenerate, self-serving, pornographic, sensual, rapacious, cruel, brutal, arrogant, power hungry popes the RCC has had through the years are that "safeguard", it is no wonder the RCC constituency can fall for anything. Go back and review your own history (the pornocracy, the popes that appointed their own illegitimate children as successors, the popes instigating the non-existent inquisitions, the popes with tunnels to the convents, etc.). Please.
The Scriptures, existing long before any RCC ever claimed ascent to the throne, are clear enough for all readers that have been given eyes to see and ears to hear. The rest...well those are the dogs returning to their own vomit that Peter wrote about.
What about the holy and brilliant ones? Don't they count, too? Consider Gregory the Great as an example. Consider Leo, who wrote the confession of faith of Chalcedon.
Tunnels to convents? Give me a break.
The Scriptures ... are clear enough for all readers that have been given eyes to see and ears to hear.
Then why can't Protestants agree on what they mean? Are the Arminians right, or the Calvinists? Premill, postmill, or amill? Dispensationalist or covenant? Infant baptism or believer's baptism? Who gets to decide? You? Where did you get that authority from? Why do you have it, and those who disagree with you don't?
Riiight. We're supposed to believe some "Calvinist church" decided anything goes in sexual matters.
Roman Catholic apologists are liars. Even those who teach.
Especially those who teach.
There is...It's the Holy Spirit and the scriptures themselves...
Psa 119:89 For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.
It's settled...There are no new revelations...There are no private Catholic interpretations...
Psa 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
The Catholic religion is neither a light nor a lamp...
Psa 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
With a little hermeneutic theory, you guys can change that verse to mean anything you want it to mean...Or, you could just leave it alone and BELIEVE it...
No, don't say Scripture decides. It doesn't.
Sure it does...
Psa 119:103 How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!
Psa 119:104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.
Psa 119:125 I am thy servant; give me understanding, that I may know thy testimonies.
Understanding comes from God, not hermeneutics...We are instucted to learn God's words (2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.) and God will provide the understanding thru His words...
Psa 119:133 Order my steps in thy word: and let not any iniquity have dominion over me
Psa 119:130 The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.
Psa 119:144 The righteousness of thy testimonies is everlasting: give me understanding, and I shall live.
Psa 119:148 Mine eyes prevent the night watches, that I might meditate in thy word.
Pro 2:6 For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.
Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Col 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
1Ti 1:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
1Ti 1:7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners,
2Ti 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.
1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Wish I had time to keep going...Every where you turn in the scriptures your Catholic hermeneutic theory is proven false...God did not give your pope or magisterium wisdom, knowledge and understanding for biblical interpretation to be passed on to Christians...These things come directly from God to the individual who will hold God's words above His name and your religion...
Forget hermeneutics, just believe...
I just love freedom of speech.
If we understand this to be an admission that some popes were wretches, then my point is made. Do you guys actually believe that those vile men were the living, breathing human authorities that safeguarded the Scriptural truths? Do you actually believe they were "Alter Christus"? That is despicable.
"Then why can't Protestants agree on what they mean?"
Please. The RCC with all of its central authority cannot agree on every matter. Not even every pope agreed with every other pope. You guys are ones claiming that the matters are settled by fiat. There should never be any conflict when such singular pronouncements exist. But, look around you...the Jesuits, the homosexual Catholics, the abortionist Catholics (Pelosi, Kennedy, Biden, et al), Medjegorje fanatics, Charismatic Catholics and we could go on. This is the result of your unity?
We openly state, the Scriptures are adequate in themselves to teach each man...each man being called by Jesus (this is the claim of Scripture itself). We invite the RCC to come to His light, alone. Lay down the trappings, the ceremonies, the traditions, the self-made religion. Pick up the Book and find that Christ is calling some to Himself, alone.
In any written document, whether it be the US Constitution, Scripture, Shakespeare's sonnets or the manual that came with your home computer, there will always be questions over interpretation, misunderstandings, queries and sometimes disputes. There must be a court of last resort.....a body of living men who will rule on the question at issue and produce a ruling or clarification.
There's nothing sinister or revolutionary in this concept. When disputes arise about the US Constitution, the US Supreme Court will issue a ruling. If the manual for your PC is not clear, you will call Tech Support and they will explain the situation.
Scripture is no different. God entrusted its safekeeping to his Church. He didn't just toss us a book and say "go figure". He's a much better Father than that.
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