Posted on 09/03/2010 5:30:30 AM PDT by Michel12
In a joint statement issued Wednesday, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and a coalition of Jewish leaders said a new computer system and policy changes related to the practice should resolve a years-long disagreement over the baptisms.
Mormons believe posthumous baptism by proxy provides an opportunity for deceased persons to receive the Gospel in the afterlife. Baptisms are performed in Mormon temples with members immersing themselves in a baptismal pool as proxies for others. The names used in the ceremonies are drawn from a church-run genealogical database.
Faithful Mormons use the practice primarily to have their ancestors baptized into the 180-year-old church and believe the ceremonies reunite families in the afterlife.
But the practice also includes proxy rites for others around the world from all faith traditions. The church also believes departed souls can accept or reject the baptismal rites in the afterlife and contends the offerings are not intended to offend anyone.
Jews are offended by the idea that Mormons are trying to alter the religion of Holocaust victims, who were murdered because of their religion.
In 1995, the church inked an agreement with the New York City-based American Gathering of Holocaust Survivors that prevented Mormons from performing baptisms or other rites for Holocaust victims, except in the very rare instances when they have living descendants who are Mormon. The church also agreed to remove the names of Holocaust victims already in the massive database.
Database monitoring since then, however, has found that the agreement had failed to prevent both the submission of names and the baptismal rites from continuing. That sparked a dispute between the Mormons and the American Gathering over a breech of the agreement. The Jewish group withdrew from discussions with the church in 2008, saying the issue could not be resolved.
Church officials say conversations were renewed last year after a coalition of Jewish rabbis and community leaders led by former New York Attorney General Robert Abrams were invited to Salt Lake City to tour a newly constructed temple and its downtown genealogy library to better understand the process.
Under new church polices, members will be required to certify names submitted to the database for baptism. Further safeguards include monitoring those names for submissions that don't meet policy standards and the removal of records, church spokesman Michael Purdy said in story posted on a church-owned newspaper's website.
Abrams, who discussed the baptisms issue with American Gathering leader Ernest Michel before talking with Mormon leaders, said he believes the Mormon church is sincere in trying to address Jewish concerns. Abrams said church leaders have assured him that members who fail to comply with church baptism policies will face sanctions that include losing their access to church temples.
Mormon church, Jewish leaders tackle proxy baptism
In a joint statement, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and coalition of Jewish leaders say genealogical database changed to better prevent names of Jews killed in Nazi concentration camps from being submitted for posthumous baptism by proxy
Associated Press Published: 09.03.10, 08:00 / Israel Jewish Scene
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The Mormon church says it has changed its genealogical database to better prevent the names of Jews killed in Nazi concentration camps from being submitted for posthumous baptism by proxy.
In a joint statement issued Wednesday, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and a coalition of Jewish leaders said a new computer system and policy changes related to the practice should resolve a years-long disagreement over the baptisms.
Mormons believe posthumous baptism by proxy provides an opportunity for deceased persons to receive the Gospel in the afterlife. Baptisms are performed in Mormon temples with members immersing themselves in a baptismal pool as proxies for others. The names used in the ceremonies are drawn from a church-run genealogical database.
Faithful Mormons use the practice primarily to have their ancestors baptized into the 180-year-old church and believe the ceremonies reunite families in the afterlife.
But the practice also includes proxy rites for others around the world from all faith traditions. The church also believes departed souls can accept or reject the baptismal rites in the afterlife and contends the offerings are not intended to offend anyone.
Jews are offended by the idea that Mormons are trying to alter the religion of Holocaust victims, who were murdered because of their religion.
In 1995, the church inked an agreement with the New York City-based American Gathering of Holocaust Survivors that prevented Mormons from performing baptisms or other rites for Holocaust victims, except in the very rare instances when they have living descendants who are Mormon. The church also agreed to remove the names of Holocaust victims already in the massive database.
Database monitoring since then, however, has found that the agreement had failed to prevent both the submission of names and the baptismal rites from continuing. That sparked a dispute between the Mormons and the American Gathering over a breech of the agreement. The Jewish group withdrew from discussions with the church in 2008, saying the issue could not be resolved.
Church officials say conversations were renewed last year after a coalition of Jewish rabbis and community leaders led by former New York Attorney General Robert Abrams were invited to Salt Lake City to tour a newly constructed temple and its downtown genealogy library to better understand the process.
Sensitivity and commitment
Under new church polices, members will be required to certify names submitted to the database for baptism. Further safeguards include monitoring those names for submissions that don't meet policy standards and the removal of records, church spokesman Michael Purdy said in story posted on a church-owned newspaper's website.
Abrams, who discussed the baptisms issue with American Gathering leader Ernest Michel before talking with Mormon leaders, said he believes the Mormon church is sincere in trying to address Jewish concerns. Abrams said church leaders have assured him that members who fail to comply with church baptism policies will face sanctions that include losing their access to church temples.
"They have made this extraordinary exception to the doctrine for Holocaust victims," Abrams told The Associated Press on Wednesday. "Their doctrine seeks to offer baptism to the souls of all people who have ever lived on the face of the earth and one grouping has been carved out. That is an act of extraordinary sensitivity and commitment, which is understood and appreciated by the Jewish community."
A telephone message left at Michel's office in New York City was not immediately returned Wednesday.
New Jersey-based Jewish genealogy expert Gary Mokotoff, who was part of the American Gathering group that had negotiated with the church, said the rules and safeguards will correct past problems — if they are enforced. Past promises of reprimands and the removal of names have not always been kept and recent checks of the database by independent Salt Lake City researcher, Helen Radkey, have found baptisms were performed for Holocaust victims as recently as May, he said.
"This has been going on so long that you have to be suspicious," said Mokotoff. "Qualified Mormons have access to the complete database so they can do proper temple work, there should be some way Jewish people can confirm that they are abiding by the 1995 agreement."
And the Mormon “taqiyya” will be to again tell the concerned Jews, “Oh, sorry, we didn’t mean to offend, we’ll quit it.” And after a few weeks, months, or maybe years, back to business as usual for the ProxalBaptismistas.
I think I have a solution to this. Jews should let Mormons practice thier faith as they wish and Mormons should let Jews practice their religion as they wish. Problem solved.
Baptism of the dead. AKA “dead dunking” by skeptics.
Merry Smithmas, y’all.
I agree. I don't understand why Jews care so much about it.
Since the Mormon-haters(tm) believe that Mormonism is all fraud then why should they care about this practice any more than they should care about Wiccans’ curses or African Shaman shaking rattles?
The fact that someone would worry about some Mormon trying to baptized their dead and departed relatives is pretty weird in itself.
Not when it involves baptizing the victims of the Shoah. It is disgusting and offending.
Because these victims were killed BECAUSE THEY WERE JEWS... Trying to change ex post the facts is both offending and disgusting.
I really couldn’t care less what Mormons believe. If they want to baptize their dead grandfather, well their stupidity. They won’t baptize my dead grandparents who were killed because they were Jews and died while reciting the shma.
Get thicker skin. It doesn't effect any Jew personally and is really none of their business.
>>I think I have a solution to this. Jews should let Mormons practice thier faith as they wish and Mormons should let Jews practice their religion as they wish. Problem solved.<<
Yikes, I don’t think you’re allowed to make sense about this.
If I’m dead, I don’t mind at all what the Mormon church does with my name. Cause I’ve already passed on.
Yes, it is. If it is your grandfather or uncle! I am offended by it and would denounce whoever would do it to my ancestors.
As I said, if they do it to their own ancestors, their stupidity. But they won’t do this stupidity by negating the identity of my forefathers.
I consider Mormonism stupid. But then they can believe in whatever stupidity they want, their choice! But not when it infringes on me.
Sorry, but the Mormon’s freedom to practice their religion is not circumscribed by what you choose to be offended by. I’m sure Mormons are offended by you trying to dictate how they should practice their religion. What makes your offense trump theirs? I see the same thing when the Jews try to dictate what Catholics can or can’t pray about with regard to salvation of the Jews. All sides will get along better if they mind their own business. It might even alleviate the anti-semitisim in the world also.
I am not aware that Jews forces people to believe as they want. Or that Jews debaptize Christians.
And the fact that you want Jews to change to “alleviate” antisemitism just shows what you are. And it ain’t pretty.
So, taking the position that Jews, Mormons and Catholics should let each other practice their faith as they wish, and that doing so would reduce prejudice between the groups, makes one an anti-semite and "ain't pretty". Sorry, I'm not connecting those dots.
The fact that someone would worry about some Mormon trying to baptized their dead and departed relatives is pretty weird in itself.”
Mormons can dead dunk all they want...they can wear their holy underwear too, just don't complain when mainstream America questions if they should vote Romney for President. Is that fair...probably not...is it reality...yep.
And married Him to Mary Magdalene..
(Oh that must be OK...after all He was "just a Jew")
Helen Radkey explains the records show that Jesus was baptized by proxy on April 8, 2010
“’Mary Mother of Jesus,’ the spouse of ‘Joseph’ ‘of the House of David…’ was baptized and confirmed a member of the LDS Church by proxy on December 9, 2009 in the Idaho Falls Idaho (LDS) Temple. She was subjected to initiatory temple ordinances on December 16, 2009; an endowment ceremony on December 26, 2009; and a sealing to parents on January 7, 2010—all rites occurred in the Idaho Falls Idaho Temple.”
While Ms. Radkey found “Joseph” listed as Mary’s spouse, the submission form indicated Mary’s “Husband #1″ was “God the Father.”
Ms. Radkey says her research also turned up recent proxy temple ordinances on behalf of Jesus Christ, though he is identified in the records as “Jesus Christian” and “Jesus Cristian.” Ms. Radkey explains the records show that Jesus was baptized by proxy on April 8, 2010, and after initiatory and endowment ordinances, was finally sealed to his “spouse” “Mary Magdelena” on April 9, 2010 – all at the Salt Lake City Temple. The same proxy ordinances were performed for “Mary Magdelena” on the same dates in the same LDS temple.
http://blog.mrm.org/2010/07/everyone-needs-lds-temple-ordinances/
Asking should be enough.
Having someone research you and your loved ones by name upon their death, and then use actors playing you, and using your name in bizarre cult religious practices is naturally disturbing, and Mormons know that.
I find it a hostile, passive-aggressive, cult practice and it is disturbing. We and our families are the people that are being exploited, us, individually, by name, we have a right to be offended, and to ask someone to leave us alone.
You don't like Mormons. Great.
But to claim they “negate the identity of my forefathers” and they “infringe" on you is pathetic.
Unless, of course, you actually believe in what they are doing!!!!
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