Intended Catholic Dictatorship

So, what does in the "Protestant view" ginomai mean in 1 Cor 15:45? If I remember correctly, you said it meant Christ's mission or work. Your own definition doesn't support that, FK. Especially since Paul uses it only once for both Adam and Christ.

I don't actually remember saying that, but if I did I have no idea what I meant by it now. :) What I think it means now is that Adam BECAME a living soul from the dust in time. Likewise, Christ BECAME a life-giving spirit to humans in time, that is, once there WERE humans to receive it. That would seem to match verse 46: "The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual."

FK, I am curious. Why would anyone think a 19th century Protestant from NJ who likely never went to Greece, maybe even never knew a Greek, let alone a Greek Orthodox theologian, would be an authority on koine or Byzantine Greek?

I can only guess, but it may have to do with him being the first to organize the material in such a usable way. I believe his concordance is still the most widely used in the world across all Christian faiths. While it might surely have been a plus if he had had a Greek background, I don't see it as a negative that he didn't. I don't think knowledge is barred by bloodlines or anything like that. He certainly had the bonafides of a legitimate leading theologian of his day, and he must have done something right since his work has withstood the test of time with so many Christians. There's always going to be some disagreement in translating and people of all ethnic backgrounds are subject to having agendas.

As a result of His death and resurrection, and with the latter being the context here, Jesus functionally became a life-giving spirit, as by faith in Him believers have life, not only eternal life but regeneration of the Spirit, (Eph. 2:1,5) who was not poured out upon all believers (Acts 2:17,18) until Jesus resurrection, (Jn. 7:39; 14:26) for "God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him." (1Jn. 4:9)

Amen, and thanks for noting with great scriptural evidence the significance of the resurrection as support for the timing issue. His "becoming" is tied to His resurrection, NOT to His coming into existence. I really have to hand it to you for so many verse links. That's great. I don't know how you do it. :)

As far as being is concerned, as Jesus had to take on flesh, He essentially was/is spirit, as God the Father is, (Jn. 4:24) and after His resurrection appeared in a glorified, incorruptible physical body, not simply as a spirit, which could materialize at will yet eat food (Lk. 24:36-43) and which type of body believers will have, (1Cor. 15:49; 1Jn. 3:2) as "in Christ shall all be made alive" (1Cor. 15:22; and which is termed a spiritual body. (1Cor. 15:44,46)

Good point. There's another dagger in the "Paul thought Christ was created" argument. Paul obviously knew all the intricacies involved here. We learned many of them FROM him. :)

Also, thank you so much for the table on the uses of "ginomai". That's quite a list.

“Amen, and thanks for noting with great scriptural evidence the significance of the resurrection as support for the timing issue.”

Thanks to God. The whole chapter is about resurrection, with that, or “risen” occurring at least 17 times, and is the continuing subject immediately before the text at issue. Moreover, to have Jesus being created as a spirit in v. 45 would be contrary to the order of v. 46, in which it is stated that that which is spiritual is not first, “but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual,” and which is contrary to what is stated concerning creation, as it is the invisible which gives birth to the visible. (Heb. 11:3)

In the subject of resurrection however, the incarnated Son of God became a life-giving spirit thru His death and resurrection, life giving because He makes the converted soul spiritually alive who was dead in sins and trespasses, so that the believer lives in the spirit, (Gal. 5:25) and spirit because that is essentially his nature, though not simply being a spirit but one with a “spiritual body,” which is what believer will have. How such can eat food and yet come through locked doors is beyond our knowledge, but that is what is revealed in the texts sited, and such is the nature of the spiritual world.

Rendering this as speaking about Jesus being created requires wresting the text out of its immediate context and supposing that Paul is introducing a novel doctrine which is contrary to what he and the other writers say on the issue. Such attempts typically evidence the extremes some will go to in seeking to construe contradictions out of texts which in reality are part of the complementary nature of Divine revelation.

“the table on the uses of “ginomai”. That’s quite a list.”

And in which makes it obvious that it is by no way restricted as referring to coming into existence. And that translation is no easy thing.

Wonderfully said, thanks be to God. In his sermon yesterday our Pastor touched on our spiritual bodies. In joking about playing a harp on a cloud for eternity he affirmed that we will not only have bodies but will be DOING things in Heaven. That is, in addition to worshiping. I really don't know, but it's interesting to think about.

Yes, what “ shall I render unto the LORD for all his benefits toward me?” (Psalms 116:12) To be able to give, and show gratitude is a privilege.

“In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. {3} And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:” (Revelation 22:2-3)

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