Posted on 08/25/2010 6:08:56 PM PDT by grassboots.org
In a delightful and widely acclaimed French novella, written by Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, a space traveler called “The Little Prince” visits an imaginary asteroid or planet named #325. The “king” of this domain has a very unusual view of his kingly powers as illustrated by this paragraph:
“The little prince looked everywhere to find a place to sit down; but the entire planet was crammed and obstructed by the king's magnificent ermine robe. So he remained standing upright, and, since he was tired, he yawned.
"It is contrary to etiquette to yawn in the presence of a king," the monarch said to him. "I forbid you to do so."
"I can't help it. I can't stop myself," replied the little prince, thoroughly embarrassed. "I have come on a long journey, and I have had no sleep..."
"Ah, then," the king said. "I order you to yawn. It is years since I have seen anyone yawning. Yawns, to me, are objects of curiosity. Come, now! Yawn again! It is an order."
"That frightens me... I cannot, any more..." murmured the little prince, now completely abashed. "Hum! Hum!" replied the king. "Then I-- I order you sometimes to yawn and sometimes to--"
An entry in Wikipedia describes him as “The King who can "control" (his subjects)…, but only by ordering them to do what they would do anyway”
I first heard this story in my high school French class, but I was reminded of it when discussing predestination with someone who believes that God did not choose who would be saved and who would be lost. In my opinion, he viewed God as remarkably like Saint-Exupéry’s king of Asteroid #325. According to him, God did choose who would be...
(Excerpt) Read more at caffeinatedthoughts.com ...
Now this is a religion that makes sense!
Freewill and Predestination are not mutually exclusive, thanks to our modern understanding of space time.
We are 3 dimensional beings, occupying 4th dimensional linear space.
Each higher space is a mathematical construct of additional right angles extending from each point in the previous orders plane.
Thus, at a 7th dimensional existence, 4 dimensions would appear as a series of flat papers. A Book. You could read it, skip ahead, book mark it, or let it unfold in order.
Adding additional dimensions, decreases the apparent elements by a factor of 1 to 1.
Thus at 8 dimensions, a 4th dimensional continuum would appear like a string. One long, but finite string with an end and beginning.
At 9th, the 4th would appear as a dot. A singularity. One instant, all encompassing, occurrence.
Thus, a being who inhabited an existence of 10 dimensions, would know all the choice, all the moves, all the parts of a 4th dimensional continuum, as if it was just one single act.
So, from our perspective, we have a serious of choices, actions, and linear consequences. We exist only in part of a part of these series of events.
From the perspective of a 10 dimensional being, all those events, just “were” “are” and at the same event as one “thing”. Time, gravity, mass, heat, are all physical properties of 3 dimensions within the 4 dimensional event.
Eternity is not having lots of time or more time. Eternity is where time, all of it, just ‘was’. Once.
Thus, in reality, we are all, already dead, already judged, already in heaven or hell. Time happened.
Matter and Energy were and are no more and both are true.
Just me typing this and you reading it, have not caught up to the real events beyond this limited 4th dimensional perspective.
In simple terms, life is like a dream from which we are mere seconds from waking.
Thus, while matter did exist in these limited forms, and we were 100% free to choose, God already ordered the outcome, knew the order and outcome and we are already with Him, His work being done in our plane of reference only.
Hope that doesn’t give anyone a headache, I tried to keep it very very layman’s terms.
You’re a real thread-killer, Rachel :-)
Oh baby!
You ain’t seen nothin yet!
Just wait til someone asks a question !!!
Really interesting. Thanks so much.
You are most welcome.
What is your evidence of a 5th dimension?
Free will is entirely consistent with predestination. If you are created to desire God, and nothing prevents you from desiring God, you desire God. Your actions are coming from your intention, and so they are free. Does that mean that God didn’t create you to desire Him? Or that God didn’t know you would desire Him?
The Catholic view is that redeemed Man is created good, but is incapable of acting good because he has been enslaved by sin; thus, redemption is liberation. At the same time, liberated Man chooses to serve his true Master. This is servitude in the sense that he serves his Master, but freedom in the sense that he joyfully serves his Master, and would have it no other way.
The Calvinist view is that sinful man follows his own caprice; thus they describe this as freedom. When he is redeemed, the necessarily will serve his Master; thus they call him a servant. So they say that free will does not exist for the redeemed. But notice this is differs from the Catholic viewpoint chiefly from a matter of perspective.
The Catholic viewpoint is based, in part, on the Hellenistic language used by the authors of the bible. Plato wrote in terms of knowledge allowing one to make an informed decision. If you would remain in a cave, because you do not know of a world beyond the cave, are you truly free? If, by knowing of a world beyond your prison, you certainly would depart from your prison, does that make you a slave to your departure? Plato’s writings are not biblical, so Calvinists are not inconsistent when they differ from Catholics; but the Greek language the New Testament was written in was influenced by Plato’s thoughts, and his concept of liberation, “logos,” etc.
It would depend on your requirements of evidence.
There is no physical evidence, as physical properties do not exist beyond 3 states.
Mathematically, you can imply additional behaviors based on the behaviors we are able to observe from our 4th dimensional continuum.
This implication is based solely on our known observances that the characteristics between 2, 3 and the 4th are constant, predictable and measurable. Thus, we infer that they same math will work upwards.
Now from scripture we find some very interesting passages:
Isaiah 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll.
Now, if the heavens, that is space, the universe, is rolled as a scroll, it would have to be in some form of space where 4 dimensions are FLAT. That is the math then of How such a thing could be literal.
Now there are over a dozen other verses where God says the Heavens are like a curtain, a tent, a canvas, etc. All of those things are THIN and can be BENT or folded into other directions.
So they have to, mathematically, have at least 3 dimensions of magnitude beyond 4. You can't fold something that is not 3 higher than the space in which you fold or roll it.
Now SOMEONE has to do the folding or rolling. And that someone, has to occupy a space 1 larger than the space needed to do the folding, rolling, bending. At least 1 higher. Could be more.
I could go on and will if you have additional questions. But this could be a 4 year graduate course in Quantum Mechanics too. Not sure I can get that deep in posts on a message board.
Actually the 4th dimension (time) is measurable. If a fifth dimension exists it should be measurable.
Mathematically, you can imply additional behaviors based on the behaviors we are able to observe from our 4th dimensional continuum.
Yes and having up to 11 dimensions would solve a lot of physics problems, but they aren't the kind of dimensions or Branes that you are thinking about.
This implication is based solely on our known observances that the characteristics between 2, 3 and the 4th are constant, predictable and measurable. Thus, we infer that they same math will work upwards.
Sorry, that is completely wrong. Look up Space-time.
Now from scripture we find some very interesting passages:
Yes scripture has some very 'interesting' passages : )
Now, if the heavens, that is space, the universe, is rolled as a scroll, it would have to be in some form of space where 4 dimensions are FLAT. That is the math then of How such a thing could be literal.
Space-time is flat, a fifth dimension wouldn't affect that in the slightest.
Now there are over a dozen other verses where God says the Heavens are like a curtain, a tent, a canvas, etc. All of those things are THIN and can be BENT or folded into other directions.
Have you ever heard of a dude by the name of Einstein? Didn't think so.
So they have to, mathematically, have at least 3 dimensions of magnitude beyond 4. You can't fold something that is not 3 higher than the space in which you fold or roll it.
That is simply bizarre thinking. Higher dimensions don't work that way at all or they would be easy to detect : ) Hence my original question asking if you had some evidence to support your theory.
Now SOMEONE has to do the folding or rolling. And that someone, has to occupy a space 1 larger than the space needed to do the folding, rolling, bending. At least 1 higher. Could be more.
How did you make that leap of 'logic'? You haven't presented even the slightest evidence or even a good supposition that there is a higher dimension.
I could go on and will if you have additional questions. But this could be a 4 year graduate course in Quantum Mechanics too. Not sure I can get that deep in posts on a message board.
Aren't you confusing Quantum Mechanics with String Theory? I happen to be relatively conversant with both. How is a fifth dimension compatible with QM? I am getting the popcorn for this answer : )
Maybe that is why God is a trinity and not a fourity.
wow — that was an impressive explanation of complexity. I’m going to bookmark you — your posts must be a sign of brilliance.
10 dimensional string theory is dead. Long live “M’ theory - it goes to 11.
Aquinas's 'first way', which is based on what seem to be unavoidable truths about things that change (i.e.: everything but God), leads to the inescapable conclusion (IF you get on the particular thought train) that God is outside of time altogether.
For the purposes of mind-boggling, I like Aslan's saying (in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader), "I call all times soon," because the term soon has such a dynamic aspect that it works against thinking of eternity as merely static.
I mean this: When people object to the idea of a " merely personal" God, they usually end up imagining something LESS than personal. Similarly, when people (rightly, IMHO) object to the idea of a "merely temporal" God, they end up thinking of something in stasis, like a beautiful diamond. Just as the joy of Heaven MUST be better than we can imagine, so the eternity of God must be more than we can comprehend. I think we HAVE to think it, but, like the Trinity, we can't really understand what it is we have to think.
As a kind of metaphor, I think the n-dimensional image is very helpful.
Nevertheless, I worship and glorify Him as He is, not as I think Him to be.
Let me assure you. My thinking is not that I limit or impart to God any such limits of the observable dimensions.
Quite the opposite. I am taking the very odd things He has revealed in His Word and attempting, with my very limited senses and perceptions, to explain them with the science as I understand it.
This is a far cry from a few of the naysayers on the thread, who, based on their comments, deny any “god” of any kind. They are attempting only to explain their senses with math, totally unaware or refusing to consider Him or His Word.
Space-Time as we know is effected by gravity, mass, acceleration, etc. God is indeed beyond those limits and likely many of the well known errors or missing bits of information among all the theories is that those dimensions, and God have MORE characteristics than any of which we may even be aware.
Take for example: Christ, after His resurrection. He would Appear and Disappear from locked room, or while just walking with people.
He did NOT do this while he “lived” yet only AFTER.
This is not a Theoretical Physics thread, so I am not going to go so deep that the kind folks reading at home give up and get lost, but in simple terms, He, Christ, Had to have, in His Resurrection Body, more attributes than He did in His Mortal body.
This model, while a very primitive stripped down version of the full thesis, would say that He had at least 7 dimensions at that time for this reason:
Take for example a sheet of paper: A simulated 2 dimensional form. We ignore for this skit, that it IS 3 dimensions, since it is thin enough to work as a model.
Put two dots, anywhere on the sheet. To make those two dots ONE dot, you need to FOLD the paper. Folding the 2 dimensional sheet, requires you to break the plane of its existence and enter an additional dimension to do it. You need 1 factor of “space” higher than the one in which any operation takes place to bring two points into proximity.
But that just means the points are VERY Close. To make them occupy the SAME space, you need to break ONE MORE PLANE.
That is a factor of dimensions TWO higher. Again, very simplified, but the mathematics of the principles remain true.
So, Jesus, being in 3 dimensions, in a 4th dimensional continuum, needs to be INSTANTLY in another 3rd dimensional space. Ala Teleportation, needs to be 2 planes higher. That would be the 6th Dimension. Now He needs to not only have that property, but Occupy that space, so he needs to BE at LEAST a 7th dimensional being to have locality and function in 6 dimensions.
Still with me? I said at LEAST. But, such a being or beings, would be able to be ANY SINGLE place in time or space composed of 4 dimensions.
Thus, I am sure Angles, which are NOT “omni-present” but have locality, and thus can be anywhere, but not everywhere at once, must be 7th dimensional.
The interesting thing about such space theory, is for any Being to be “godlike” over any lessor beings, they need to possess 2 higher planes of existence and occupy a 3rd.
Thus, to be “god” over 7th dimensional beings, one would need to have 10 such attributes. Whatever those additional attributes would be.
Now, being TWO entire factors not just planes higher than ours, would indeed BE a “god”. Able to be omni present, in all 4 dimensions, at once. Instantly.
This is not at all imparting physical characteristics to God, or limiting him in any way. This is just the bare minimums of math as we understand it, required to work.
Two points.
First 10 DST is not "dead". There are unexplained issues, with ALL the theories. That is why we are STILL searching for a UNIFIED theory. Well, scientists are. You and I are NOT actually doing any of that work, and are hobbyists at best.
If it goes to "11", when not just make "10" louder? (Spinal Tap is a riot, nice one, thanks)
The quest for a unified theory is just so much tilting at windmills. And if it were possible to discern it would be done so on the basis of metaphysical logic rather than mathematical quantification. Why? Because it must explain the normative as well as the physical.
Well, that IS why we call this debate: Theoretical Physics. Everyone is just taking their best educated guesses and then testing what they can actually test.
3 Dimensional bags of mostly water operating in a uni directional time stream makes our standards of quantifiable measuring pretty limited.
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