Israel and the "Unholy Trinity" of Ezekiel 38-39

RaptureAlert.com | Undated | Chris Schang

[just me]

. It is impossible to even begin to understand the book of Galatians without grasping the significance of Abraham and his relationship to believers today. All who are “of faith” are “Abraham’s children” (Gal.3:7), and are “blessed with faithful Abraham” (Gal. 3:9). Christ died on the cross so that “the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles” (Gal. 3:14).

[RJR_fan]

It's amazing to be part of the generation that is witnessing all of the prophesies given in Scripture come to pass!

I guess this is the bottom-line appeal of apocalyptic insanity. How could the consummation of all history happen at any time other than when someone as important as me is walking around on the ground?

How sad, not to have any reason to pursue excellence in the arts or sciences, since those projects take too long, and we obviously don't have the time. We'll let the ungodly dominate every field of endeavor outside of soul craft, right?

I think, most of all, I grieve for the children of the apocalyptics. How sad, not to have any hope to offer them, that they might grow up to enjoy children of their own. How sad, to crush their aspirations, their God-implanted callings, for anything more demanding than dead-end menial jobs.

I do find hope in the fact that so many large, Calvinist, home-schooling families are also post-millennial. When people are committed to the failure of the gospel, sometimes you just have to outlive them and outbreed them.

Twelve spies went into Canaan. Caleb and Joshua saw rich opportunities for a faithful God to show more faithfulness. Ten spies saw only the certainty of disaster. The faithless spies undermined the morale of Israel -- and a whole generation died off in the wilderness, pointlessly wandering around for 40 years. It's hard to soar with the eagles when you live with the turkeys -- but 40 years later, at age 85, Caleb claimed to be as strong as ever, and said "give me that mountain!" I think the apocalyptic hysteria of so many otherwise faithful Christians retards the whole body of Christ. But for those of faith, the hope of outliving the doomsayers and fortune tellers keeps us cheerful. At least, we know, our children will outperform theirs. The future belongs to those who trust God for it, and work in terms of that trust. Not to those who write off the future, and their children.

[GiovannaNicoletta]

I know that this fallen, sin-sick world, this old, cursed world, is going to come to an end, evil will be judged and dealt with, and there is a new world coming, a fresh world, restored to God's original perfection, with Jesus running the government in perfect justice.

I know this because God told us all about it in His love letter to us: the Holy Bible.

I know it's futile and foolish to long for this fallen world, and this fallen world system, a world system that God will soon destroy. I know it is a waste of a person's short time on this earth to try to cling onto this world that will be done away with, to love this world so much that one will go so far as to deny the very Book that God gave us that tells us that this world will pass away. I know that it is a waste of the little bit of time we have here to make plans that will never come to fruition instead of spending our time telling those who don't know what is going to happen how they can know Christ as Savior and not only have the joy and peace that comes with salvation in Christ, but escape the judgments that God tells us will come on this earth.

I guess this is just a schism that cannot be crossed.

We will soon know for sure whether we were correct and obedient in believing what God said, or whether those who took it upon themselves to discard a good portion of the Scriptures were correct.

[RJR_fan]

You have stated the contrast in our perspectives in a cordial and gracious way. Considering the passion on both sides, that is a commendable and praiseworthy act.

(BTW -- I love God's whole word, take courage from its record of fulfilled prophecy, and am encouraged by the record of His faithfulness to "attempt great things for God. Expect great things from God." I look forward to seeing grandchildren some day serving God and neighbor in powerful ways for His glory. Perhaps even on Mars ... )

[The Theophilus]

I understand the position of the post-millennialist, and as a "realized millennialist" I recognize that I can have some interpretational issues that could just as easily have me join their camp - at least the partial preterist division. Ten years ago, I was sanctified out of Dispensationalism, and on a daily basis I find yet more and more reasons to write it off as the apostasy it is.

I know that libraries of books have been written on the subject, and some time on the internet will cover most of the arguments. Speaking of libraries of books, I mostly read 15th through 19th century theological works and I find it interesting, yet not surprising, that the popularity of certain millennial views vary along-side contemporary culture. For example, during the Great Awakening, the great theologians were predominately post-millennial since empirically it appeared to be the trend. The Church at large (worldwide), for the past few thousand years has been primarily amillennial with certain notable groups holding to what is now called "Classical Premillennialism" The Darby/Scofield variety of Premillennialism, appears to be a rather young creature, an outgrowth of the American Religion (Big-Box Churchianity) and slick marketing campaigns designed for wealthy western culture enamored with our own narcissism and a general attitude of treating our LORD as our Cosmic Concierge.

Before I answer a few of "GiovannaNicoletta's" open questions to "Mark was here", I have a few of my own.

• Our LORD only speaks of two ages, the Present Age, and the Age to Come. By whose authority do Dispensationalists come up with 4,7 or even 8 different "Dispensations".
• What is this obsession with an earthly temple and the resumption of temple sacrifices? Was our LORD's death and resurrection insufficient? Was it not actually finished, but now we must revert to the system of temple sacrifice? What does it say about Christians who are encouraging Jews to continue to reject Jesus Christ and in fact blaspheme the cross by aiding them in recreating the Temple in Jerusalem and goading them into making animal sacrifices? Furthermore, how can God honor any people who reject His Son and favor a resumption of the types rather than the fullfillment.?
• 1 Corinthians 2:14 says that the natural man cannot understand the things of God since those things are spiritually discerned. Furthermore we have in Revelation 22:7 "Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book." If the way the Dispensationalists handle Revelation is correct, are any of you planning to be here for the Tribulation? Would it be fair to say that those who are "left behind" are not Believers? If so, how do the reprobate receive a blessing, let alone understand any of Revelation since Scripture says that it is "foolishness to them"? From the Dispensationalist's point of view, most of it after Chapter 3 is irrelevant to all of the Church througout her entire history since it only speaks allegedly to those who will suffer the various, seals, bowls and trumpets after all of the Believer's have been "raptured".

When was the Gospel preached to all the nations?
Romans 10:18 - But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed: "Their sound has gone out to all the earth, And their words to the ends of the world."
Colossians 1:5-6 - "..in the word of the truth of the gospel which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing fruit..."
Colossians 1:23 - "if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister."

Who was the Antichrist?
Who needs an Antichrist? The only mention of such a character is in 1 John, and that person is characterized as one who is a deceiver and denies that Jesus is the Christ and denies the Father and the Son. (1 John 2:18-23). In fact, it seems to me that Dispensationlism is trying to make anti-christs by urging the Jews to deny Jesus Christ by building yet another temple in which they can blaspheme our LORD's finished work on the cross by sacrificing critters rather than rely on the Blood of our Savior. Seriously. Why do some Christians want to make a new red heffer, raise money to build another temple, and rebuild the furniture sans the Ark and the contents therein? Isn't that like driving the getaway car to a bank robbery or holding the flashlight while another cracks the safe? Do you sincerely think God will bless that?

Why did we have the rebirth if Israel in 1948 if all of the prophecies that pointed to the literal return of Christ already happened?
There is a secular nation called Israel, two-thirds who are ethnic Jews, who occupy a fragment of the Middle East, So what? In Joshua 21:43, the promise the LORD had sworn to Abraham concerning the Land of Israel was fulfilled. There is no need for a future Israel, that promise was already kept thousands of years ago. If there is a physical nation of Israel or not fulfills no specific orthodox Biblical prophecy. Besides, isn't it more than a generation of time since 1948? Wasn't this the reason why one of the modern day Prophets declared the LORD's return in 1988? There is no Temple Mount, unless our LORD lied in Mark 13:2, Matthew 24:2 or Luke 21:6. The Masjid Qubbat As-Sakhrah (Dome of the Rock) sits on what was formerly the plaza of Fort Antonia where the Roman garrison stayed. The actual temple was immediately to its south, and is no more, because, as our LORD clearly stated, "not one stone will be left upon another". When our LORD makes statements like that, they are meant to be kept, hence no stone will be left upon another to this day and until the End of the Age. I submit that Islam is here to make sure that promise stands.

Where is the record written anywhere that China had a 200 million man army in 70AD?
Where in all of Scripture does it even make reference to China, let alone a 200 million man standing army? This is part of the problem in your questions, all of these questions are based on the fallacy of the Dispensational hermeneutic that all things must convey some hybrid of literalism and selective imagery randomly grabbed from unrelated places in Scripture and universally projected to be in our future. For example, Hal Lindsey taking liberties in calling the clearly symbolic locusts of Rev 9:3 and transforming them into actual US made Apache Helicopters. Are you going to then ask, "Where did the Apache Helicopters with Hellfire missles that took down the Jerusalem Temple in 70AD come from?" Similarly, Hal Lindsey also made up the 200 million Chinese Army by taking some Scripture from Rev 9:15-16 and gratuitously merging it with Rev 16:12. It is a fraud, and the rank and file Dispensationalists are gullible consumers of this dreck.
Let's examine this 200 Million Man March on Jerusalem. That is one-fifth of China's population. China's current military according to wikipedia is presently 2.3 million active, 1.2 reserve. That is a tiny fraction of 200 million. I will grant that those available for military service (age 16-49) is 654 million, three times more than Hal Lindesy says is needed. The present military budget is $80B, or 1.5%% of China's GDP. What do you suppose it would be to handle 100 times that? Remember, the 200 Million is the number who descend upon Jerusalem, that does not include all of those in the supply lines, traingin, communications, logistics, intelligence, command, etc.. Then there is the issue of supply and transport. The Persian Gulf War of 1990-91 included the transport of 500,000 men and their equipment to the region and it took the US with all of its transportation capabilities six months to execute that move. Now amp that up by 400 times for an emerging industrial nation who still buys its navy from the Russians. Then consider the route through or around the Himalayas. The Lindesy Prophecy says that this army will be crossing the Euphrates river by land. Extrapolating the US experience in getting a military fielded in the Middle east, we are talking about 200 years to pull this off. Exactly how is the Chinese budget going to pull that off? Do you have any idea how much fuel and food that is required? And while 200,000,000 men are marching, who is working the fields and factories? Where do the officers come from? How do you conscript, train, assign, house, clothe, feed, march, coordinate these sort of numbers? Furthermore, in anyone's wildest imagination, what sort of military operation has as its only solution decimating its industry to field this kind of military? Its insanity like this that ought to tell the Dispensationalist that maybe this 150 year experiment in anti-orthodox eschatology might be wrong.

GiovannaNicoletta, I simply ask that you take a look at what many generations of devout Christians believed before this largely American fanaticism of Dispensational Premillennialism was invented. There are numerous serious doctrinal problems with Dispensationalism: the most obvious, the dividing of the People of God, the reinstitutionalizing of temple sacrifice, narcissism over humility before God, the reckless profaning of Scripture to sensationalize and sell books and Prophecy Conferences, etc. Its not an easy road to go down. Dispensationalism is sexy because it has violence, and freaks of nature, intrigue and mystery. Fortunately, God didn't isn't trying to compete with Vince Flynn and Brad Thor. Revelation is, as the letter begins, the Revelation of Jesus Christ, not the Antichrist and a continous pattern of cryptic catastrophes. It is about "things which must shortly take place...for the time is near" not thousands and thousands of years later. It was written to the seven churches so that they should "keep those things that are written in it" not for a world full of God hating reprobates who are wondering why planes are crashing to the ground.

[RJR_fan]

Ten years ago, I was sanctified out of Dispensationalism, and on a daily basis I find yet more and more reasons to write it off as the apostasy it is.

It seems as though the traffic is mainly going one way -- away from this tragic error that turns Christians into cheerleaders for Satan's team, and towards a saner, happier, perspective on time. I began seeing daylight in 1980. My life, marriage, family, and education were all transformed as I was emboldened to expect better things from God than universal impotence and global failure.

We have God's Spirit within us, Jesus at the Father's right hand, His Word to guide us, and tailor-made assignments to complete (Eph. 2:10). As we obey our God, we transform our world, and demonstrate to the universe of angels and men that "Jesus is LORD" -- and Lord is not a synonym for "guru." He is so much more than a "personal spiritual adviser," who regulates and amplifies our inner lives. He reigns in the world around us, and makes His Kingdom known as we obey Him. The rock "not cut with hands" is growing to a mighty mountain and filling the world.

In a way, the passion folks pour into their apocalyptic pontifications leaves me dismayed. After all this time, have we learned so little? Are we still so gullible, so easily diverted from our God-given tasks by hucksters and shamans with retreaded books?

[The Theophilus]

And if the events of Revelation happened, then Christ has already returned, we've had the thousand-year Millennial Kingdom, we're now in eternity with a New Jerusalem, the curse has been lifted, Satan is in hell, and there should be no more sin like murder, rape, child abuse, homosexuality, etc.

That would be a caricature of orthodox eschatology. It is only the literalists who demand a literal one-thousand year interval and a literal earthly reign. Quick question, in Psalms 50:10 we read that our LORD owns the cattle on a thousand hills, so who owns the cattle on the remaining hills? Or in Deut 7:9 God keeps His covenant and mercy for a "thousand generations". If a generation is forty years, do we have another 36,000 years to wait before the end of this Age?

There are some real serious doctrinal issues that you have brought up. When you say that if Satan were to be in Hell, there should be no more sin, are you actually suggesting that to the extant of man's fallen nature, we only sin if Satan is actually there to perform live tempting? Are you assigning omnipresence to a created being? For you would have to if Satan is tempting each and every one of us - or are some people so special that Satan alternates between a few, especially while they are sleeping?

Lets examine the neo-Judaistic thought that Jesus isn't really King (despite Rev 1:5) unless He physically occupies a throne on earth among the holy and the unholy. Never mind the implied weakness of this King who somehow overlooked the massive conspiracy for a violent coup 'd etat that was to take place exactly 365,250 days into His term of office. When He allegedly rules with a rod of iron, does that only include rape and murder or does it cover things like disobedient children and telling lies? So how does this work, a reprobate sinner decides to fulfill his job description and sin, does he get smacked down right there? Paralized? Have his Free Will changed so that it only can do good, but then expires after exactly 1000 years? Gossiping is a sin, so when a harmless conversation accidentally slips over that fine line into gossip, does lightning originating out of Jerusalem strike down the transgressor? According to Matthew 5, even harboring hate is the same as commiting murder, lust is no different than actually commiting adultury - both are capital crimes in the OT Law. So a dirty thought or calling someone a name get the Death Penalty from God or does He keep a double standard? Eating of the tree of Knowledge thrust all of creation into futility and death, bringing billions upon billions to die and many to burn in Hell for all eternity. Just one sin. How does that work out in the alleged earthly reign?

I really appreciate your enthusiasm, but when doctrines abandon Scripture, the resulting mess brings shame to our faith.
Sam Waldron wrote an easy to read book on the subject

[The Theophilus]

If God is done with the Jews, why are all of His prophecies about the nation of Israel happening right now?

Which prophecy in particular are you referring to? I don't need all like you said, just one.

There's only so much replacement theology, Jew-hating, anti-Semitic crap that I'm going to tolerate and believe me it isn't much... go draw swastikas.

According to Dispensationalist malinterpretation of Zecharaiah 13:7-9 you must eagerly be awaiting the day when our LORD will mercilessly slaughter two thirds of the Jews. Which, by the way, I never fully understood why Dispies fantasize about Jews dieing in Israel. Surely there are many more Jews in New York and Miami as there are in Tel Aviv. I certainly hope that you find this 'teaching' from your camp disturbing - it doesn't have to be this way.

In the future, please be careful of who you accuse of bearing the swastika

[jjotto]

...According to Dispensationalist malinterpretation of Zecharaiah 13:7-9 you must eagerly be awaiting the day when our LORD will mercilessly slaughter two thirds of the Jews...

I often find it shocking and wonder if Dispensationalists pleasure themselves while fantasizing about millions (more) dead Jews. What's in it for them, of course, is vindication for their egos.

[The Theophilus]

It seems as though the traffic is mainly going one way -- away from this tragic error that turns Christians into cheerleaders for Satan's team, and towards a saner, happier, perspective on time.

In a wierd way, it was this Pessimillennialism that drove me out of that camp. I remember when people were selling their homes and living it up on credit cards because they were absolutely convinced that the LORD was due on The Feast of Trumpets.

I remember the terror tactics used back in the 70s when all of this was the in thing. The hypothetical newspapers they made that pretended the "Rapture" allready occured. It is funny that this element of people will immediately take sticks and chase you out of the room if you declare God's Grace in Election because they think that it is harsh for God to force anyone, yet they thought it was perfectly respectable to terrorize young people into salvation with fears of being left-behind in a feral god-less society. "You better love God now, or you will suffer unimaginable horrors and misery."

For a thread on Ezekiel 38-39, there is an amazing lack of discussion on it. FWIW, I subscribe to the Gog and Magog image as the spirit of Antichrist, along with those who actively hate God's People (your pick of who), who rise up together to attack the Saints. Along their course others give their thumbs up approval and may even want to tag along for the fun of it. When it appears to be most grim, the Spirit of the LORD, simiarly to what happened at Sodom, stirs up a confusion where they essentially eat each other leaving the Saints of God unmolested.

I can't find any example or type of this in Scripture though, which makes it a dead-end for an actuall physical fulfillment. Rather, as far as the eye can see, when God raised up armies, it was to lay the Smack Down on a disobedient Israel. (pre 70AD). This might fit in better with your PostMil theories.

One thing that I was impressed upon while reading a vast body of literature on these passages, is the variety of opinion to who Gog and Magog was/is. The only conclusion I could come up with is that Gog and Magog are not to be identified since they aren't a concrete instance of any one entity. Instead, it appears that they represent the spirit and body of evil that wars against the Saints.

[small voice in the wilderness]

It sounds like you depended on writings of men in your past. Of course you disappointed. Yet it sounds like you are still depending on writings of men to shape your present. Of course you will be disappointed.

[small voice in the wilderness]

Not only was your post poorly thought out and completely wrong concerning dispensational Bible study, it was vile.

[The Theophilus]

It sounds like you depended on writings of men in your past...

I would be interested to know what you feel is to be the better alternative.

Is it less noble to stand on the shoulders of giants so that we can see further? I'm not so arrogant that I feel that the only opinion that counts is my own, and it would be folly to disregard the accumulated knowedge of well trained and devout men of God who devoted their lives to our edification and knowledge of the things of God. And yes, I do "depend" on the lexicons, the encyclopedias, and commentary of those whose writings which have endured the test of time and peer review, rather than the "pull date" from a book publisher's rotation schedule.

Yet it sounds like you are still depending on writings of men

Am I to assume that you eschew all theological teaching? That is, you don't triffle with the words uttered by a pastor, nor do you heed the verses within a confession? Are daily devotionals only as good as yesterday's comics? Are you a master of the Greek and the Hebrew? Have you a unique channel to the mind of God that somehow has eluded all the theologians of the past? Has Truth skipped two thousands years of believers and has only been revealed to you ?

As a simple test to your unique wisdom, how do you interpret the words in Rev 9:16 'δισμυριάδες μυριάδων'? Some folks interpret it as "a whole bunch", NIV "two hundred million", GENEVA "twenty thousand times ten thousand", KJV "two hundred thousand thousand", AMP "twice ten thousand times ten thousand". If you are into the importance of words and numeric expression you would find significance there. If you are simply a literalist you would do ? because literally it is "twice ten thousand ten thousand". If you interpreted it as an idiom you would say it in an equivalent english colloquial "myriads upon myriads". Let the Spirit guide you. There is only one correct answer, right?

[stars & stripes forever]

Jesus told us that we are not to worry about tomorrow because we have enough to handle for today. He gives us new mercies to see us through the day.

Jeus did tell us bring in the harvest.

It is best to reap the harvest, find the souls destined for salvation, than speculate about the rapture. When the rapture happens we won't have time to say, "Told you so!"

[Just mythoughts]

Over the last few weeks and months I have found myself truly astonished at the speed of which Bible prophecy appears to be unfolding on the world scene.

Why the astonishment? Christ said 'time' would be shortened, but ALLLL the events foretold would still happen and it is likened to a 'woman in travail' as in birth pains and labor. Sometimes preachers overlook the fine print.

[SunkenCiv]

Note: this topic is from 6/12/2010. Thanks GiovannaNicoletta.

"Leaders of Russia, Turkey and Iran convened at a security summit meeting in Istanbul on Tuesday in a display of regional power that appeared to be calculated to test the United States just one day before a scheduled American-backed debate in the United Nations Security Council on imposing tighter sanctions over Iran’s nuclear program."

The Three Amigos

Iran's President Hassan Rouhani, Russia's Vladimir Putin and Turkey's Tayyip Erdogan meet in Sochi, Russia November 22, 2017. (photo credit: SPUTNIK/MIKHAIL METZEL/KREMLIN VIA REUTERS)

[SunkenCiv]

Note: this topic is from 6/12/2010. Thanks GiovannaNicoletta.

"Leaders of Russia, Turkey and Iran convened at a security summit meeting in Istanbul on Tuesday in a display of regional power that appeared to be calculated to test the United States just one day before a scheduled American-backed debate in the United Nations Security Council on imposing tighter sanctions over Iran’s nuclear program."

The Three Amigos

Iran's President Hassan Rouhani, Russia's Vladimir Putin and Turkey's Tayyip Erdogan meet in Sochi, Russia November 22, 2017. (photo credit: SPUTNIK/MIKHAIL METZEL/KREMLIN VIA REUTERS)