Posted on 05/31/2010 6:33:12 AM PDT by Cronos
>There is wisdom in what you say, yes. However, my point was:
>1. it is not Scripture ALONE — that is not, well, scriptural
There’s a story about a man, I’m sorry but the particular name escapes me, whose desire it was to translate the bible and distribute the translation to members of a far-eastern country. (Viet Nam or Korea or someplace thereabouts.) He got everything done, spending his life’s fortune, and finally he was ready so he bought passage on a boat, along with the transport for his bibles, and they set sail.
Anyway, the people at his destination-country attacked the ship and he was killed as a result; the bibles ended up being used as wallpaper for a house. Over time, people in this country would go to the house and read the scriptures and some would apply what they read.
Then, in more modern times, when the country was reached out to by missionaries, they found to their surprise that the people were not wholly foreign to the gospels... that is that they’d heard the story before and even considered it to be ‘native’ (even though it wasn’t ABOUT natives... kinda like the world-flood mythos, I suppose).
Similarly, and more solidly remembered by myself because my church has contacts w/ a missionary from China is the story of the Chinese Christian Church[es]. In the Boxer rebellion pretty much all the Christians were massacred, Chinese converts and foreign missionaries alike; but, this happened AFTER there were Chinese bibles printed. Some few survived and, like in the previous story, Christianity became a Chinese thing [in a manner of speaking], this is really attributable only to the Scripture and the Holy Spirit. But since God _IS_ His word [see John 1], you could argue that that *IS*, at it’s bare root, “Sola Scriptura.”
>2. SCripture and Holy Tradition, together, yes. They do not contradict each other.
What, might I ask, is your definition of Holy Tradition. Technically speaking, ‘holy’ means merely ‘set apart.’ By considering religious traditions to be different from ‘customs’ or other social traditions you are making them holy, in a sense.
So, in that sense the distinction becomes meaningless because anybody can [arbitrarily] consider any tradition ‘set apart.’
>Catholicism and Islam do not mix.
And yet the pope is making overtures to the muslim world..
>Read up on Suleiman the Magnificent who reached out feelers to Protestant groups and proposed a union since both (according to him at least) had common beliefs.
“The enemy of my enemy is my friend.” — Suleiman was VERY ‘westernized’ and so he DID have more in common with the Europeans than would muslims from further east.
Besides which, I’m not talking “in the next few decades” type time-scale, but “in one- or two- or ten-thousand years.” Given how much a society can change in a mere 200 years [our American society] from a liberty/freedom based society (with a jurisprudence idea of innocent until proven guilty) to a tyrannical society (with a jurisprudence idea of “out to get you,” see Constitutional Chaos and Three Felonies a Day) I don’t see it as entirely impossible.
That’s exactly right. Don’t you believe it as well?
Luke 4:4 The Word of God has been recorded in The Bible. You are gaming the rules by playing semantics. Of what does Mark 7:7 warn us of? The Word of God comes from God. If you can’t comprehend that, I cannot continue in this discussion.
1. Assumption of Mary
2. Apostolic succession
3. Transubstantiation
4. Praying to the dead ...
Takes no effort to keep going ... but the sun is out and the pool water is nice ...
My dear Hack, Christ appeared on earth AFTER the crucifixion. The disciples continued on afterwards so (until martyred or death). Is there ANY evidence these loyal followers wore a crucifix? I submit they would be horrified to do so and that people today do so. What would Jesus have us do? IF you love Me, keep my commandments. That's pretty plain and simple but I'm sure there are those here that will twist it out to mean something entirely different/opposite.
You got that right.
Jesus said that no one comes to the Father but through Him.
I believe Him.
If that is “Sola Scriptura” and therefore wrong in the eyes of a Catholic, then that would explain why I am not and will not be a Catholic.
Believe me I have read it in context many many times. The only way you're going to look at that ENTIRE section of Scripture and see it only referring to 'judgement' is to completely ignore verses 1-2 and 6-7. Basically pulling OUT of context verse 4-5 then lecturing someone else on reading it IN context. LOL. You have to jump through a whole hoop of exegetical hermeneutical gymnastics to come up with the interpretation you did! And all to avoid verse 6; 'not to exceed what is written'. What you accused me of 'not read excerpts' is exactly what you've done! Double LOL's.
What does verses 1-2 say again??? "...those entrusted with the secret things of God"......"must prove faithful". Entrusted with what, prove faithful of what??? Verses 6-7 "....not to exceed what is written..." followed by "What do you have that you did not RECEIVE...." Receive what? Verse 6- WHAT IS WRITTEN. Verses 6-7 are in conjunction with verses 1-2 IN CONTEXT OF COURSE, and verses 4-5 instruct that we are not to judge motives or the heart, but Acts 17:11 clarifies verses 4-5 that we ARE to judge what is being taught by searching the SCRIPTURES which then brings us back to verses 6-7 again. Look in the mirror first before you hurl accusations about pulling verses out of context or not looking at the WHOLE of Scripture.
YOU started this thread asking where Sola Scriptura is scriptural - I showed you - you then proceed to mangle an entire text of Scripture in order to refute what was clearly shown to you. That is the hallmark of an unregenerate man following after the teachings of men RATHER than Scripture itself.
Holy Tradition in NO way contradicts scripture. It can't.
Where Holy Tradition remains consistent with Scripture you are correct. But where Tradition maintains its origins in paganism or gets its origins from sinful men - it does contradict - and quite frequently. This is where all false teaching comes from - Men who 'claim' to be of God but teach things contrary to Scripture. The RCC contains a plethora of 'traditions' that are completely contradictory to Scripture. Just a few examples:
1) The Council of Trent, held in the year 1545, declared that Tradition is of equal authority with the Bible. And that was only done in order to combat the Reformation, you see the reformers were using Scripture to clearly show the error in the RCC. They weren't seeking to start a new religion, they were seeking to restore or 'reform' the Church back to its scriptural foundations cleaning out the errors. What did the RCC do at the point? Elevated Tradition to equal authority with Scripture!! Unfortunately for the RCC - The Pharisees believed the same way, and Jesus bitterly condemned them, for by teaching human tradition, they nullified the commandments of God. (Read Mark 7:7-13; Col. 2:8; Rev. 22:18).
2. The Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary was proclaimed by Pope Pius IX in the year 1854. Unfortunately for the RCC - sacred writ states that ALL men, with the sole exception of Christ, are sinners. Mary herself had need of a Savior. If she needed a Savior (Luke 1:47) how in the world was she ever SINLESS??? (Read Rom. 3:23; 5:12; Psa. 51:5; Luke 1:47). This is not only error, its blasphemy.
There are many many many more 'traditions' of the RCC that CONTRADICT Scripture that the RCC HAD to include the Apocrypha in 1546 in order to find some text for the support of their errors. Try doing a google search sometime of Catholic Heresies and count the sites that pop up! Here's one example
Its up to you to believe what you want. But you follow after the teachings of men rather than the written Word at your own peril.
Really? Then why does your own chuch's catechism say the opposite???
#841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[330]
Seems to me the RCC is saying they mix very well and you're both worshipping the same god!
Revelation 11:19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant could be seen in the temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder, an earthquake, and a violent hailstorm.
Revelation 12:1 A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
Elisha and Moses appearing at the transfiguration, we know that Elisha did not die but went straight to heaven. 2. Apostolic succession
Acts of the Apostles 1:20 For it is written in the Book of Psalms: 'Let his encampment become desolate, and may no one dwell in it.' And: 'May another take his office.'
Acts of the Apostles 1:26 26 Then they gave lots to them, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was counted with the eleven apostles. 3. Transubstantiation
Matthew, Mark, and Luke : This IS my body (Unless you are a clintonite the meaning of "is" needs no explanation.)
John 6:53 Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
How can you actually eat His flesh if Transubstantiation does not occur. 4. Praying to the dead ...
Revelation 8:3-4 3 Another angel came and stood at the altar, 3 holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne.
4 The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel. Who is it
Who is it that gives the prayers to God?
BTW Catholics don't pray to the "dead" we pray to those in heaven, who are alive in Christ. Takes no effort to keep going ... but the sun is out and the pool water is nice ...
Takes no effort to keep batting them out of the park Every single Catholic belief is Biblical, which is more than you can say for even one of the Solas that you folks cling to in desperation.
And Amen to that!
"Now some are puffed up,as though I would not come to you."1 Cor. 4:18
I'm a little short on indulgences this week, is your parish running a sale on them perchance?
Too bad Galileo was under house arrest for what offense? For saying the earth revolved around the sun instead of the other way around? Which infallible church would do such a thing Oh wise and ballpark knocker outer Verga? Thrall us with your acumen.
2 Timothy 3:16-17 says “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteous- ness; That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” —> it doesn’t say that Scriptura is sufficient, just that it is profitable i.e. helpful. the entire verse from 14 to 17 says “But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; and that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, “which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God (Greek: theopneustos = “God-breathed”), and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works” “
So another words sticking with the scriptures can make one spiritually perfect. Sounds like a good case for Sola Scriptura to me!
He said “I came to fullfil the the LAW...not destroy it” See...even your reliance on tradition has you misquoting our Lord!!!
Actually Verga it was Elijah that did not die not Elisha....we also know that Enoch also did not die!
Sola Scriptura anyone?
Pick one of these:
(1)Man shall not live by bread ALONE, but by every Word of God.
(2)Man shall not live by bread ALONE, but by the traditions of man.
(3)Man shall not live by bread ALONE, but by what my priest and church tell me is so.
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