Posted on 05/31/2010 6:33:12 AM PDT by Cronos
i agree one hundred percent...
scripture alone led to divisions galore even in luther’s time, he even noticed it...and it continues to this day.
and one of the ‘benefits’ of solo scriptura, in any form, is that the all of that plain and straight forward biblical texts in this post, can all majikally be made to mean something else, again, all thru using the majik wand of sola scirptura....
throw in a few ‘let scripture interpret scripture’ (which is also done using sola scriptura principles, thus defeating the purpose), and our separated brethern can make it says whatever they need to say...
or whatever the little bible church down the streets preacher wants it to say.....
or the next non denominational church a block from there...
and so on, and so on...
The traditions of men took us from Adam’s perfect walk with God to Sodom in short order.
Oh no!! You’ve done it now. Matthew 15:6-9 is just one example that Jesus fought against traditions of men that contradicted The Word of God. Show me one example of Jesus or his disciples praying to a dead saint for deliverance or help.
Show me one example where Christ or his disciples wore rosary beads or crucifixes or used them.
“But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus." 2 Tim 3:14-15
Let’s look at context and reality:
1. This was written to Timothy
2. Timothy was born in 17 AD
The Scripture Timothy knew from infancy and what Paul is referring to is The Old Testament. The New Testament wasn't written at the time of Timothy’s infancy. This doesn’t mean what some want it to mean. Paul was telling Timothy that Christ did fulfill the OT prophecies, that Timothy was "made wise" for the salvation of Christ. Nowhere do the apostles tell future generations that the Christian faith will be based solely on a book.
Do you agree that Sunday worship was changed from Sabbath worship by the authority of your church leadership and that nowhere in the Bible does it explicitly state that this change took place in the age of the apostles? What day did Christ keep (hint Luke 4:16).
The Catholic arguments for tradition simply don't work (interesting, though, they have to be supporter from Scripture, making Scripture *still* the arbiter, not "the church" or tradition). Jesus did condemn corrupt tradition - because it was tradition that conflicted with the Word of God. Indeed, at several points, Jesus vociferously defies tradition *on that basis*. The traditions that Paul spoke of, well, there is simply no logical basis whatsosver to read in the Catholic meaning of "tradition" - more logically, the traditions that Paul told the Thessalonians to hold to was simply the preaching of the Word that he had given them personally when he was there - which would not have conflicted with the later written Word. Catholic arguments simply beg too many questions to be credible, intellectually.
I do agree that the Bible doesn't teach that some doctrines are "minor" and that we can ignore them - but the fact that this is done so today is not the fault of sloa scriptura. Indeed, one would think that if someone were serious about sola scriptura, it would engender the exact OPPOSITE approach to these doctrines (and indeed, it DOES, among those who actually ARE sola scriptura in practice, rather than just in word). Catholic tradition, on the other hand, is what "allows" people to violate scripture left and right on the basis that "Mother Church said they could."
How do I know whose oral traditions are correct?
True, the traditions of men. However, we talk of the Holy Tradition of God, as handed down by God, Christ Himself through His Apostles. This Holy Tradition was the birthing womb for Scripture, and like Mary was the womb for Christ yet she is subordinate to Him, Holy Tradition too is subordinate to Scripture and in no way contradicts it.
Where did you go Cronos? This ain’t fair to start this and not follow up on what I hoped was a stimulating discussion.
Matthew 15:6-9 shows Jesus fighting against corruption of Tradition. He points out that Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. Jesus came to fulfil scripture and Tradition, not to destroy it.
First off, when the twelve were disciples (as opposed to Apostles), the crucifixion hadn't happened yet, so there was no such thing as a Crucifix at the time.
Second, the history of the Rosary is that it began as a way for the laity who were illiterate at the time to symbolically pray the psalter daily - 150 Our Fathers or Hail Marys to symbolize the 150 psalms that were prayed daily in the monestaries. The beads are a place-keeper. The Rosary as we know it today is a little different, and the development was revealed as all points of Faith are.
I’m asking about SOLA Scriptura here. Is Scripture ALONE sufficient? Where does Scripture say that?
“The Scripture Timothy knew from infancy and what Paul is referring to is The Old Testament. The New Testament wasn’t written at the time of Timothy’s infancy. This doesn’t mean what some want it to mean. Paul was telling Timothy that Christ did fulfill the OT prophecies, that Timothy was “made wise” for the salvation of Christ. Nowhere do the apostles tell future generations that the Christian faith will be based solely on a book” —> well put
How do I know whose oral traditions are correct?
Revelation 8:3 Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne. 4 The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel.
It is more than sufficient.
Jerome said that these "observances of the Churches, which are due to tradition, have acquired the authority of the written law." (Dialogue Against the Luciferians 8)
Why aren't these traditions observed anymore?
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