Posted on 03/21/2010 3:03:29 PM PDT by NYer
Of course, the Catholic position is the Scripturally off-base posture of synergism.
Do you think we have nothing to say on our own behalf or in our own defense? Have you read anything written by a Catholic on the topic?
I can not care less what the Roman Catholic Church thinks about other true, Biblical Christian doctrine. Call me a heretic because I left the ROMAN Catholic Church - the Lord God Almighty sees my heart and recognizes true faith. I do not need nor want your Imprimatur. I know what I believe and why!
No wonder you disparage sola scriptura and sola fide, your religion has rejected what scripture teaches about salvation by grace through faith and substituted man's works and merits in place of the blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ our savior and Lord. It is truly sad that you cannot see that ALLreligion enslaves mankind by putting the responsibility on him to earn salvation rather than God reaching down to us and binding us back to him through unmerited, unearned, undeserved GRACE. You further enslave by claiming your religion alone is the source of grace when it has not the faintest idea anymore of what that word even means.
I've had enough LIES for one day - thank you!
Minor issues, not precisely spelled out in Scripture, allows liberty in beliefs and practice. But no doctrine or practice should ever be contrary to scripture - that is why God preserved it for us all as our sole authority.
Well said.
“In light of what we are all going through with the crisis in American government this very night, can you all not refrain from more religious one-up-manship for ONE day???”
Right, and to top it off, Drudge ran a lead about a certain devout Roman Catholic who prayed to her idol, “Saint Francis,” to defeat her “enemies” before this vote. Enemies like we FReepers.
Of course, we have had countless RCC apologists here on FR assure us that Roman Catholics really do now pray to idols. Now where do you suppose Pelosi got such a notion of praying to “Saint Francis” from anyway? Protestants?
And they are going to lecture Protestants about heresy! Give me a break.
Disclaimer: Maybe it wasn’t Saint Francis she prayed to, I might not have the right “Saint,” maybe it was Saint Bartholomew, or ... Whatever, its still idolatry.
Vatican II should be on that list.
STEP 3: Accuse the Catholic church of denying salvation by grace.
THe original point that sola fide is not the Catohlic teaching therefore it is heresy. You now attempt to justify it by a generic reference to Romans and Galatians. But even if you succeed, all you will succeed in doing is to show that your interpretation of Romans and Galatians is heretical.
Now, it is still an interesting question: Does the Scripture teach Sola Fide? The answer is, of course not. It does teach that works of the Jewish law are not salvific(Romans and Galatians teach that). It also teaches that we are justified by worksL (Romans 2:6-10), Matthew 25:31-46). It of couse also teaches that faith is necessary for salvation in many places. So the Scripture teaches the Catholic position, that we are justified by faith and works and not by faith alone (James 2:17-26).
These are works God does through me indeed. So your question is answered: My credit is in response of my free will to the Divine Grace.
Spread less lies about what the Catholic Church teaches and you will be better humored by Catholics.
The only way to unity is through Catholicism.
No, not necessarily. The statements from the Pope (for example, before he became Pope) focused on what he deemed as lack of authority of the Protestant churches (for example, lack of authority to administer the sacraments). That's a different focus than calling Protestants "heretics."
It's sad that your position has more in common with Mormons than the Bible. In fact, I've found two previous posts I did in conversing with Mormons that are applicable. Here's the first -- one I posted a year ago last week...[why is it that as Easter approaches, this seems to be more of a key Q?]:
March 14, 2009: I need to ask you: What is the basis of whether or how God will forgive your personal sins?
I think you "miss the boat" in misunderstanding two dimensions of judgment: One dimension is our sin nature, our individual acts of sin--including our sins of omission. The other dimension is our works.
You can't exchange the two. For our sin, Heavenly Father fully judged Jesus on the cross. When Jesus said "It is finished" on the cross, He used a phrase that in His day was a financial phrase meaning, "paid in full." Our debt -- our sin -- was paid in full. If we try to pay for our sin/atonement, Heavenly Father rejects it as being laced with unrighteousness (Is. 64:6).
But you are correct when you're talking about God judging the stewardship of our works. Note this passage:
By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's WORK. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; HE HIMSELF WILL BE SAVED, but only as one escaping through the flames. (1 Cor. 3:10-15)
Do you see that last sentence? Even if our work is burned up, we can "suffer loss" in heaven -- yet, Paul assures us that "he himself WILL BE saved." (Paul goes on to describe that like somebody pulled out of a burning building at the last second...by Jesus Christ the Deliverer and Rescuer).
So, you're right in at least our works will get quite a "grilling" of judgment from God. But Paul makes it clear in this passage that even when our measured works burn up as nothing -- as God's fiery judgment takes a match to them like fuel, we ourselves "will still be saved." (1 Cor. 3:15)
So the righteousness of Jesus is our free pass into heaven. (1 Cor. 1:30). Entrust your life to Him (that is more than just mouthing a few words). But simultaneously, be prepared that once you get there based solely upon your faith in Christ, that He will take a fine-toothcomb to our works -- and judge them. And that it's possible to still become saved -- and still "suffer loss." (None of us should want to suffer such loss in heaven -- whatever that turns out to be)
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Now, to wrap up my comments above, Annalex, and apply them to what you said: Romans 2:6-10 & Matthew 25 indeed fit the above judgment of our works. But it's a distinct judgment our God will make of us.
What tends to happen, I believe, is that some Catholics & many Mormons think we Evangelicals are downplaying works. The answer is "no, we are not." God will hold us accountable for them -- or for their lack.
We recognize that "faith works." A true faith works; it's not an empty enterprise. What we do stress is that no amount of our works can counterbalance our sin.
So I need to ask you: Have you discarded the Protestant position on works because you think we leave it out? [When in fact, we've only recognized it -- per 1 Cor. 3:15 and Isaiah 64:6 ("all our righteous acts are like filthy rags" -- "rags" being the term for used menstrual cloths) and many other passages -- as coming under a separate judgment of God???]
So the Scripture teaches the Catholic position, that we are justified by faith and works and not by faith alone (James 2:17-26). [Annalex]
The problem for too many James 2 citers is that they skip over v. 10 (you, Annalex, cited vv. 17-26): For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. (James 2:10)
You see, God's standard is perfection for somebody to be able to come into His holy Presence. You could keep every part of the law, minus one, and still per James 2:10 be guilty of breaking all of it.
And if you think works is somehow going to offset or counterbalance sin, the answer to that is "nope." It won't. That's why we needed a perfect Substitute.
We cannot get around (nor should we try) Romans 5:19: For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Jesus Christ Himself is our holiness and our righteousness: It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. (1 Cor. 1:30)
Come out of the false works; receive Him who IS your righteousness; your holiness!
Well, here was the other 2009 post I found that's relevant. Even though I'm leaving it mostly as I posted it, and written to Mormons, I guess it's a pretty sad commentary when it also applies to Catholics like yourself:
From the [Lds] article [I was responding to at the time]: Bair said the New Testament uses the word "saved" 40 times. Six of those times it talks about it as being "by faith." Thirty-four of those times it is in the context of works.
Wow. I dare a Mormon to show this posting to Bair himself. In the KJV, which the LDS used, the New Testament uses the word "saved" 59 times (not 40). But since about 20 of those have to do with either a non-spiritual meaning (like being saved on a stressed ship in Acts 27) or is simply raising the issue of who will be saved -- not addressing the "how" -- let's go with the "40" figure for now.
Bair implies here that the NT "saved" scorecard he's kept is 34-6 in favor of doing works vs. receiving it through faith alone. How utterly distorted! I ran through those 40 passages. Here's the breakdown, Mr. Bair and Mr. De Groote:
* Four attribute it to God's grace, which by definition is a gift you don't earn, merit or work for (Acts 15:11; Eph. 2:5; Eph. 2:8; 2 Tim. 1:9)
* One roots being saved in God's mercy (Titus 3:5)
* Three root it in faith (Luke 7:50; 18:42) as Eph. 2 in context also mentions faith
* One ties it to confessing in Jesus (Rom. 10:9) -- hardly a "work" on our part
* Two tie it to believing in Jesus (Acts 16:31; Luke 8:12)
* One links it to receiving & believing in Jesus (Acts 11:14, 17)
* One ties it to approaching Jesus for life (John 5:34, 39-40) -- again, hardly a "work" on our part
* A number of passages link it to how we are passively saved -- such as how His Name saves (Acts 4:12) & calling on His Name to save us (Acts 2:21; Rom. 10:13); other "passive" recipient roles we have in being saved include verses on how it's the Lord who does the saving (Acts 2:47; 2 Tim. 1:9; John 3:16-17); the cross saves us (1 Cor. 1:18); and passive verses of being saved such as Rom. 8:24; 1 Cor. 15:1-2; Rom. 5:9; and Rom. 5:10 (his life saves) -- saved also used in John 10:9 -- and context here is He gave his life for us to be saved (John 10:9-11)
* Another dozen or so others simply talks about being "saved" in more general terms -- minus stress on men's works
Whereas Bair's implied "scorecard" is 34-6 in favor of "works," I see the count as 25-3 in favor of faith, belief, grace, mercy, the cross, and the Lord Himself.
On top of that, "salvation" is mentioned 43 times in the NT -- and we find in these references that:
Salvation is His (Rev. 7:10; 19:1)
It comes thru faith (1 Pet 1:5)
It comes thru grace (Titus 2:11)
It's a relational trust tie (Eph. 1:12-13) -- not a religious do-gooder "grade"
Salvation is by believing & confessing in Christ (Rom. 10:10)
Christ is the Obtainer of salvation (1 Th. 5:9) thru the Spirit's sanctification (2 Th. 2:13) and thru His own longsuffering ("the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation") -- 2 Pet. 3:15 ...
Christ Himself is our salvation (Heb. 9:28; Lk 2:30; John 4:22) & its author (Heb. 5:9) & captain (Heb. 2:10)
So in over 80 NT passages dealing with "saved" and "salvation," that leaves us with these verses about enduring to the end to be saved -- Mt. 10:22; 24:13; Mk 13:13 -- of which hangs...[most of] the..."salvation-by-works" doctrine of the Mormon church!
[Note: Certainly the apostle Paul also elsewhere stressed perseverence and endurance, and Jesus did in Revelation to the churches about being an "overcomer"...a key point in these verses, however, is that they are given to people already in a born-from-above relationship with Him -- not as a "to do list" for unbelievers as to how to accomplish salvation...note the rarity of how often these concepts are mentioned directly linked to a verse discussing being "saved" or "salvation."]
Beyond that, who will we give more credit & glory to for enduring -- us or the Holy Ghost living in us? Does not 2 Th. 2:13 say that our salvation is thru the Spirit's sanctification?
Ultimately, whose "longsuffering" is especially relevant in salvation? Ours or our Lord's? Does not 2 Pet 3:15 say, "the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation"?
So in light of all of the above, Mormons are going to appear before the Christ who died for them and...
...will they continue to either ignore or play down...
...His blood,
...His cross,
...His grace,
...His mercy,
...the gift of faith,
...the gift of the Holy Ghost,
...the conviction of the Holy Ghost leading to repentance (John 16:8),
...Jesus being our faith's obtainer, author and captain,
...and instead substitute all of the above by saying to Jesus, "See my paltry obedience, good works, & temple works. Aren't they grand? Good enough to land me here, right?"
And it wouldn't surprise me to hear Jesus saying:
"Did you not read the apostle Paul, who told you in Romans 3 that all of you fell short of my glory?"
"Did you not read the apostle Paul, who told you in Romans 6 that if you were trying to work your way here, your 'wages' would be 'death?'"
"Did you not read the apostle Isaiah, who compared men's deeds to filthy menstrual rags?"
"Did you not read the apostle Paul in Ephesians 2, who said if you could claim 'works' as the route here, that would be a boastable resume'?"
"Did you not read my comment in the Sermon on the Mount that unless your righteousness exceeded that of the Pharisees, who were indeed outwardly righteous, 'ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven?'"
"Did you not read the apostle Paul discussing God's power in 2 Tim. 1:9? 'Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began'"
"Did you not know what 'not' or 'grace' or 'given' meant?
"Did you not read Luke in Acts 16:30-31? 'what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house?'"
"Could I have spoken more plainly when I was asked, 'What shall WE do, that WE might work the works of God? than to point to the "work of God" and not your own works when I replied, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent?'" (John 6:28-29)
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Annalex, we do agree on one key point that you said -- These are works God does through me. -- which I believe is what Jesus is emphasizing in John 6:28-29. So that's the thing though...if we don't do those works, we take the blame @ judgment; if and when we do those works, God the Holy Spirit gets the credit & glory.
Isaiah 64:4-6 pertains to a particular historical situation, not to a general condition. The passage appeals to a time when Israelites once had a right relationship with God, when God helped them against their enemies because they waited on him, gladly did right, and remembered his ways.
When they sinned against him and did not repent and return to their former state, he abandoned them to the will of their enemies, so that even Jerusalem and its Temple were destroyed. (Isaiah speaks of this prophetically, before it happened.)
It was during that period of continued sin, leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem in 586 B.C., that they had "become like one who is unclean"--they hadn't always been like that.
Catholics do not perform good works in order to enter a state of justification. The Council of Trent stated that "nothing which precedes justification, whether faith or works, merits the grace of justification" (Decree on Justification 8).
In fact, it is impossible for an unjustified person to do supernaturally good works, since these are based on the virtue of charity (supernatural love), which an unjustified person does not have. Good works therefore flow from our reception of justification; they do not cause us to enter a state of justification. Good works increase the righteousness we are given at justification and please God, who promises to give us supernatural rewards on the last day, including the gift of eternal life (Rom 2:6-7, Gal 6:6-10).
If a man believes in Jesus Christ as savior, but does no "good works", would he still be justified?
Thank you. Amen!
You do not have to do good works in order to come to God and be justified.
My question to you. What do you do with ... See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:24.
What we do stress is that no amount of our works can counterbalance our sin.
Well, if that were the totality of Prtoestant teaching on faith and works, that wouldl have been unobjectionable. Generally, any time you wish to embrace the Catholic position you are welcome to do so. So far, however, the counterscriptural idea that we are saved by faith alone is taught by Protestant pastors. That is the heresy in question.
God's standard is perfection for somebody to be able to come into His holy Presence. You could keep every part of the law, minus one, and still per James 2:10 be guilty of breaking all of it.
Very true. What does it have to do with the counterscriptural heresy of faith alone?
I see that this is really a game of semantics then, too. When I hear someone say "you do not have to do good works to come to God and be justified." I think I hear that you believe a person is then not justified by works. What I know you mean is that we are justified by grace but are "sanctified" by our works. You see two distinct points, is this correct?
If you truly believed, as Scripture clearly says, that we are sanctified (made holy) and justified, wholly by grace through faith - apart from our works, before God - then you would have no problem whatsoever with the concept of faith alone.
If you re-read the entire book of James, you will understand that God is not contradicting himself - you miss the context by taking a verse out and letting it alone explain such an important doctrine as salvation by grace through faith.
Here's my point, if you believe you are saved by faith plus something else you do - regardless of what that something else is - then you are NOT placing your trust in Jesus Christ as your savior. You are, in truth, relying on your own merit to earn you eternal life. Until you can discern that distinction, you will never understand what grace truly is. And without that understanding, you will never have the assurance of your salvation that our Heavenly Father desire for us in the here and now. I pray you do.
he is exxpressing an opinion....you’re way too thin skinned.....you are wrong, but thin skinned about it!!
How do you reconcile your view with free will?
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