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To: Colofornian; NYer

THe original point that sola fide is not the Catohlic teaching therefore it is heresy. You now attempt to justify it by a generic reference to Romans and Galatians. But even if you succeed, all you will succeed in doing is to show that your interpretation of Romans and Galatians is heretical.

Now, it is still an interesting question: Does the Scripture teach Sola Fide? The answer is, of course not. It does teach that works of the Jewish law are not salvific(Romans and Galatians teach that). It also teaches that we are justified by worksL (Romans 2:6-10), Matthew 25:31-46). It of couse also teaches that faith is necessary for salvation in many places. So the Scripture teaches the Catholic position, that we are justified by faith and works and not by faith alone (James 2:17-26).

These are works God does through me indeed. So your question is answered: My credit is in response of my free will to the Divine Grace.


28 posted on 03/22/2010 5:20:05 AM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex; NYer; Campion
THe original point that sola fide is not the Catohlic teaching therefore it is heresy. You now attempt to justify it by a generic reference to Romans and Galatians. But even if you succeed, all you will succeed in doing is to show that your interpretation of Romans and Galatians is heretical. Does the Scripture teach Sola Fide? The answer is, of course not. It does teach that works of the Jewish law are not salvific(Romans and Galatians teach that). It also teaches that we are justified by worksL (Romans 2:6-10), Matthew 25:31-46). It of couse also teaches that faith is necessary for salvation in many places. So the Scripture teaches the Catholic position, that we are justified by faith and works and not by faith alone (James 2:17-26).

It's sad that your position has more in common with Mormons than the Bible. In fact, I've found two previous posts I did in conversing with Mormons that are applicable. Here's the first -- one I posted a year ago last week...[why is it that as Easter approaches, this seems to be more of a key Q?]:

March 14, 2009: I need to ask you: What is the basis of whether or how God will forgive your personal sins?

I think you "miss the boat" in misunderstanding two dimensions of judgment: One dimension is our sin nature, our individual acts of sin--including our sins of omission. The other dimension is our works.

You can't exchange the two. For our sin, Heavenly Father fully judged Jesus on the cross. When Jesus said "It is finished" on the cross, He used a phrase that in His day was a financial phrase meaning, "paid in full." Our debt -- our sin -- was paid in full. If we try to pay for our sin/atonement, Heavenly Father rejects it as being laced with unrighteousness (Is. 64:6).

But you are correct when you're talking about God judging the stewardship of our works. Note this passage:

By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's WORK. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; HE HIMSELF WILL BE SAVED, but only as one escaping through the flames. (1 Cor. 3:10-15)

Do you see that last sentence? Even if our work is burned up, we can "suffer loss" in heaven -- yet, Paul assures us that "he himself WILL BE saved." (Paul goes on to describe that like somebody pulled out of a burning building at the last second...by Jesus Christ the Deliverer and Rescuer).

So, you're right in at least our works will get quite a "grilling" of judgment from God. But Paul makes it clear in this passage that even when our measured works burn up as nothing -- as God's fiery judgment takes a match to them like fuel, we ourselves "will still be saved." (1 Cor. 3:15)

So the righteousness of Jesus is our free pass into heaven. (1 Cor. 1:30). Entrust your life to Him (that is more than just mouthing a few words). But simultaneously, be prepared that once you get there based solely upon your faith in Christ, that He will take a fine-toothcomb to our works -- and judge them. And that it's possible to still become saved -- and still "suffer loss." (None of us should want to suffer such loss in heaven -- whatever that turns out to be)

****

Now, to wrap up my comments above, Annalex, and apply them to what you said: Romans 2:6-10 & Matthew 25 indeed fit the above judgment of our works. But it's a distinct judgment our God will make of us.

What tends to happen, I believe, is that some Catholics & many Mormons think we Evangelicals are downplaying works. The answer is "no, we are not." God will hold us accountable for them -- or for their lack.

We recognize that "faith works." A true faith works; it's not an empty enterprise. What we do stress is that no amount of our works can counterbalance our sin.

So I need to ask you: Have you discarded the Protestant position on works because you think we leave it out? [When in fact, we've only recognized it -- per 1 Cor. 3:15 and Isaiah 64:6 ("all our righteous acts are like filthy rags" -- "rags" being the term for used menstrual cloths) and many other passages -- as coming under a separate judgment of God???]

So the Scripture teaches the Catholic position, that we are justified by faith and works and not by faith alone (James 2:17-26). [Annalex]

The problem for too many James 2 citers is that they skip over v. 10 (you, Annalex, cited vv. 17-26): For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. (James 2:10)

You see, God's standard is perfection for somebody to be able to come into His holy Presence. You could keep every part of the law, minus one, and still per James 2:10 be guilty of breaking all of it.

And if you think works is somehow going to offset or counterbalance sin, the answer to that is "nope." It won't. That's why we needed a perfect Substitute.

We cannot get around (nor should we try) Romans 5:19: For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Jesus Christ Himself is our holiness and our righteousness: It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. (1 Cor. 1:30)

Come out of the false works; receive Him who IS your righteousness; your holiness!

31 posted on 03/22/2010 10:10:44 AM PDT by Colofornian (If you're not going to drink the coffee, at least wake up and smell it.)
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To: annalex; NYer; Campion
You now attempt to justify it by a generic reference to Romans and Galatians. But even if you succeed, all you will succeed in doing is to show that your interpretation of Romans and Galatians is heretical. Now, it is still an interesting question: Does the Scripture teach Sola Fide? The answer is, of course not. It does teach that works of the Jewish law are not salvific(Romans and Galatians teach that). It also teaches that we are justified by worksL (Romans 2:6-10), Matthew 25:31-46). It of couse also teaches that faith is necessary for salvation in many places. So the Scripture teaches the Catholic position, that we are justified by faith and works and not by faith alone (James 2:17-26).

Well, here was the other 2009 post I found that's relevant. Even though I'm leaving it mostly as I posted it, and written to Mormons, I guess it's a pretty sad commentary when it also applies to Catholics like yourself:

From the [Lds] article [I was responding to at the time]: Bair said the New Testament uses the word "saved" 40 times. Six of those times it talks about it as being "by faith." Thirty-four of those times it is in the context of works.

Wow. I dare a Mormon to show this posting to Bair himself. In the KJV, which the LDS used, the New Testament uses the word "saved" 59 times (not 40). But since about 20 of those have to do with either a non-spiritual meaning (like being saved on a stressed ship in Acts 27) or is simply raising the issue of who will be saved -- not addressing the "how" -- let's go with the "40" figure for now.

Bair implies here that the NT "saved" scorecard he's kept is 34-6 in favor of doing works vs. receiving it through faith alone. How utterly distorted! I ran through those 40 passages. Here's the breakdown, Mr. Bair and Mr. De Groote:
* Four attribute it to God's grace, which by definition is a gift you don't earn, merit or work for (Acts 15:11; Eph. 2:5; Eph. 2:8; 2 Tim. 1:9)
* One roots being saved in God's mercy (Titus 3:5)
* Three root it in faith (Luke 7:50; 18:42) as Eph. 2 in context also mentions faith
* One ties it to confessing in Jesus (Rom. 10:9) -- hardly a "work" on our part
* Two tie it to believing in Jesus (Acts 16:31; Luke 8:12)
* One links it to receiving & believing in Jesus (Acts 11:14, 17)
* One ties it to approaching Jesus for life (John 5:34, 39-40) -- again, hardly a "work" on our part
* A number of passages link it to how we are passively saved -- such as how His Name saves (Acts 4:12) & calling on His Name to save us (Acts 2:21; Rom. 10:13); other "passive" recipient roles we have in being saved include verses on how it's the Lord who does the saving (Acts 2:47; 2 Tim. 1:9; John 3:16-17); the cross saves us (1 Cor. 1:18); and passive verses of being saved such as Rom. 8:24; 1 Cor. 15:1-2; Rom. 5:9; and Rom. 5:10 (his life saves) -- saved also used in John 10:9 -- and context here is He gave his life for us to be saved (John 10:9-11)
* Another dozen or so others simply talks about being "saved" in more general terms -- minus stress on men's works

Whereas Bair's implied "scorecard" is 34-6 in favor of "works," I see the count as 25-3 in favor of faith, belief, grace, mercy, the cross, and the Lord Himself.
On top of that, "salvation" is mentioned 43 times in the NT -- and we find in these references that:
Salvation is His (Rev. 7:10; 19:1)
It comes thru faith (1 Pet 1:5)
It comes thru grace (Titus 2:11)
It's a relational trust tie (Eph. 1:12-13) -- not a religious do-gooder "grade"
Salvation is by believing & confessing in Christ (Rom. 10:10)
Christ is the Obtainer of salvation (1 Th. 5:9) thru the Spirit's sanctification (2 Th. 2:13) and thru His own longsuffering ("the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation") -- 2 Pet. 3:15 ...
Christ Himself is our salvation (Heb. 9:28; Lk 2:30; John 4:22) & its author (Heb. 5:9) & captain (Heb. 2:10)

So in over 80 NT passages dealing with "saved" and "salvation," that leaves us with these verses about enduring to the end to be saved -- Mt. 10:22; 24:13; Mk 13:13 -- of which hangs...[most of] the..."salvation-by-works" doctrine of the Mormon church!

[Note: Certainly the apostle Paul also elsewhere stressed perseverence and endurance, and Jesus did in Revelation to the churches about being an "overcomer"...a key point in these verses, however, is that they are given to people already in a born-from-above relationship with Him -- not as a "to do list" for unbelievers as to how to accomplish salvation...note the rarity of how often these concepts are mentioned directly linked to a verse discussing being "saved" or "salvation."]

Beyond that, who will we give more credit & glory to for enduring -- us or the Holy Ghost living in us? Does not 2 Th. 2:13 say that our salvation is thru the Spirit's sanctification?
Ultimately, whose "longsuffering" is especially relevant in salvation? Ours or our Lord's? Does not 2 Pet 3:15 say, "the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation"?

So in light of all of the above, Mormons are going to appear before the Christ who died for them and...
...will they continue to either ignore or play down...
...His blood,
...His cross,
...His grace,
...His mercy,
...the gift of faith,
...the gift of the Holy Ghost,
...the conviction of the Holy Ghost leading to repentance (John 16:8),
...Jesus being our faith's obtainer, author and captain,
...and instead substitute all of the above by saying to Jesus, "See my paltry obedience, good works, & temple works. Aren't they grand? Good enough to land me here, right?"

And it wouldn't surprise me to hear Jesus saying:
"Did you not read the apostle Paul, who told you in Romans 3 that all of you fell short of my glory?"
"Did you not read the apostle Paul, who told you in Romans 6 that if you were trying to work your way here, your 'wages' would be 'death?'"
"Did you not read the apostle Isaiah, who compared men's deeds to filthy menstrual rags?"
"Did you not read the apostle Paul in Ephesians 2, who said if you could claim 'works' as the route here, that would be a boastable resume'?"
"Did you not read my comment in the Sermon on the Mount that unless your righteousness exceeded that of the Pharisees, who were indeed outwardly righteous, 'ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven?'"
"Did you not read the apostle Paul discussing God's power in 2 Tim. 1:9? 'Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began'"
"Did you not know what 'not' or 'grace' or 'given' meant?
"Did you not read Luke in Acts 16:30-31? 'what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house?'"

"Could I have spoken more plainly when I was asked, 'What shall WE do, that WE might work the works of God? than to point to the "work of God" and not your own works when I replied, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent?'" (John 6:28-29)

****

Annalex, we do agree on one key point that you said -- These are works God does through me. -- which I believe is what Jesus is emphasizing in John 6:28-29. So that's the thing though...if we don't do those works, we take the blame @ judgment; if and when we do those works, God the Holy Spirit gets the credit & glory.

32 posted on 03/22/2010 10:25:48 AM PDT by Colofornian (If you're not going to drink the coffee, at least wake up and smell it.)
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