Posted on 02/24/2010 3:11:46 PM PST by Colofornian
The scenes are familiar.
A young man approaches the pulpit and breaks down while recounting how he was saved from disaster by a prompting. He can't make it to "Amen" before grabbing a tissue.
A woman shares an experience in Sunday School about a relative who was given a blessing and healed from serious illness in the blink of an eye.
A friend retells a dream that revealed which academic major, career and spouse he should choose.
All know they felt the Spirit -- "without a shadow of a doubt."
But less noticed is the girl in the back of the chapel who, watching others repeatedly be overwhelmed by the Spirit, questions if she's ever once felt it. Less apparent is the young man praying for the burning in the bosom that he's heard so much about but never experienced, wondering what he's done wrong to be so unfeeling.
How do you know when you're feeling the Spirit? Does it have to be ground-shaking in order for it to count?
Young adults and those who teach them say recognizing the Spirit varies from person to person, but sensational experiences are rare. Feeling its smaller manifestations might require a change in expectations, patience and noticing -- among other things -- when it's gone.
Simple manifestations
Brent L. Top, chairman of BYU's church history department, says "feeling the Spirit isn't always a feeling," and members of the church, particularly young adults who are broadening their testimonies, can get discouraged if they buy into the idea that the Spirit speaks only in grandiose ways.
By and large, being spiritual isn't about sudden, overwhelming experiences, but rather trying day in and day out to do things you know are right, Top said. The desire to do what's right is a key indicator that a person is on the right track.
Charles Schwab, a current institute teacher at the Salt Lake University Institute of Religion and a former bishop of a young single adult ward, agrees.
"A lot of the (young adults) that do feel the Spirit know that they just have a bigger desire to do good than they usually have," Schwab said. "And they feel more spiritual and they desire to do good. I've never had a burning in my bosom, but I've felt light. And I've gotten answers to my prayers and I get directed. And when those things happen, they're subliminal, and I acknowledge that I'm being led by the Holy Ghost."
Twenty-one-year-old Emily Dishong said when she reads the scriptures, she feels calmer compared to her hectic studies.
"I feel like I'm in a more peaceful environment," she said. "Every day he's directing me."
Dishong is majoring in chemical engineering at the University of Utah, and says that despite challenges and her hectic schedule, there's always peace when she thinks of the knowledge she gains from church. She knows it's the Spirit that helps her find calm in the midst of school, work, and family obligations.
"Even then I still feel this spiritual joy that you get from being a part of the gospel," Dishong said.
The scriptures have examples of both imposing and subtle manifestations of the divine, Top said, and both are awe-inspiring. Yet much of what church culture focuses on are the grand examples such as Alma and Paul's conversions.
"We tend to focus on the sensational," Top said. "While those things are true, and while they do occur, they are quite rare, and they're quite rare even in the scriptures."
Top said some of his favorite counsel on the matter comes from Brigham Young, who said, "The highest inspiration is good sense. Knowing what to do and how to do it."
Members of all ages sometimes think spiritual matters extend far beyond "good sense," and consequently, they have unrealistic expectations for their own spiritual experiences, and those unfulfilled expectations often overshadow the real, quieter promptings.
"We are probably being guided and directed more than we realize," Top said.
In classroom discussions, Schwab hears students who preface their answers by saying things such as "I'm probably reading between the lines ... " or "I don't know where this comes from ..." then go on to give an insightful, doctrinally sound statement but never recognize them as such.
"They're acknowledging 'I just felt the Spirit, but I don't know what to call it,'" Schwab said. "It was the Holy Ghost, but they just think they had this stunning mental experience to remember something."
He added, "I think that (young adults) are going to be shocked in the eternities to see how many times there was intervention."
Schwab said once young people start looking for the subtler signs of the spirit, they'll recognize them more and more. He said every day in his classes he hears students say profound things that were prompted by the Holy Ghost, but they don't make the connection that it was a divine impression.
Why it's hard for young adults
Top, who served as president of the Illinois Peoria Mission from 2004-2007, said young adults, including missionaries, have a "sense of urgency" to understand the Spirit and receive direction more than they ever have before. When they lived with their parents, they may have grappled with spiritual questions, but usually "it wasn't a matter of life and death," where guidance and direction were needed immediately.
Schwab said as young people become more independent, they'll find that the Lord works in different ways than he did when they were young and prayed about more trivial things.
"They used to pray (when) they lost their favorite marble and they would be led by the Spirit to their marble instantly," Schwab said. "And now all the sudden they're grown-ups and they pray for something way more important than a marble, and there's no answer ... because (Heavenly Father) is waiting for them to do something.
"I think that's hard."
Twenty-one-year-old Morgan Stidham, who takes classes at the institute adjacent to the University of Utah, said, "Even though you understand how the Lord speaks to you and how the Spirit works in you, that can change, and you're not going to get an answer the same way every time."
Another aspect that contributes to spiritual confusion is the fact that many young adults have had the Spirit with them for so long, they're used to it and take it for granted. Top said because of that familiarity, it's sometimes easier to observe when you're without it.
"In my own life, only occasionally do I have really powerful spiritual experiences," he said. "Most of the time, I'm just trudging along ... and a lot of times I don't know if I have the Spirit with me, but I always know when I don't have it with me."
Dan Cowan, 21, a student at the U., said he can really tell when he's without the spirit.
"That's very stark for me, that's a lot easier to recognize," he said. "You can just feel that uneasy feeling."
What to do about it
In addition to being more mindful of the seemingly minor manifestations, young adults also need to be patient, and do the things they know are right rather than worrying about the answers they haven't received yet, Schwab said.
"I think young adults are really impatient. They want it right then," he said. "If you have an idea of religion, if you know it's true, live true to it."
Top said the less a person looks inwardly, the less they worry about their feelings, and the more likely they are to serve others, which is the ultimate way to feel the Spirit.
"True spirituality is not so much what I feel but how I serve, how I care about others, how I treat others," Top said.
It may not be as exciting as having the big profound experiences people write books about, but enduring and staying faithful will grant young adults the peace and confidence of the Spirit.
"I'm a firm believer that if we're plugging along ... the Lord is going to get me where I need to go," he said.
"IT"? The Holy Spirit is an "IT"??? Is that how this Lds writer writing for the Lds HQ-owned newspaper sees the Holy Spirit? Yup. If you thought that was just a single theological writing slip, keep reading:
From the article: Young adults and those who teach them say recognizing the Spirit varies from person to person, but sensational experiences are rare. Feeling ITS smaller manifestations might require a change in expectations, patience and noticing -- among other things -- when it's gone.
AND: From the article: Another aspect that contributes to spiritual confusion is the fact that many young adults have had the Spirit with them for so long, they're used to IT and take IT for granted. Top said because of that familiarity, it's sometimes easier to observe when you're without IT.
Where do these Mormons get this kind of "impersonalized" view of the Holy Spirit? Well, for one, they get it from their bishops of young single adult wards & teachers of their Institutes of religion:
From the article: "They're acknowledging 'I just felt the Spirit, but I don't know what to call IT,'" Schwab said. [Salt Lake University Institute of Religion and a former bishop of a young single adult ward]
And then Lds students, taking these courses from such leaders, gain the same lack of understanding: From the article: "In my own life, only occasionally do I have really powerful spiritual experiences," he said. "Most of the time, I'm just trudging along ... and a lot of times I don't know if I have the Spirit with me, but I always know when I don't have IT with me." (University of Utah Lds Institute student)
Only one person quoted from the article seemed to express a more proper understanding of Who (He's not a "what") the Holy Spirit is: From the article: Twenty-one-year-old Emily Dishong said when she reads the scriptures, she feels calmer compared to her hectic studies. "I feel like I'm in a more peaceful environment," she said. "Every day HE'S directing me."
Where does this rolling back-and-forth presentation of the Holy Ghost originate? Joseph Smith himself! Smith would describe the Holy Ghost as being personal and impersonal all in same sentences!
"This first Comforter or Holy Ghost has no other effect than pure intelligence. IT is more powerful in expanding the mind, enlightening the understanding, and storing the intellet with present knowledge..." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 149) "The Holy Ghost is a personage, and is in the form of a personage. IT does not confine itself to the form of the dove, but in sign of the dove." (p. 276)
Therefore, ignorance has given birth to widespread ignorance. We see this among Lds missionaries...see, for example Missionary Pal Reference Guide for Missionaries & Teachers by Keith Marston, Publishers Press 1959, has a heading: "Holy Ghost and Gift of the Holy Ghost: What IT is" (p. 77)
Per gotquestions.org: He has a will (1 Corinthians 12:11). He convicts of sin (John 16:8). He performs miracles (Acts 8:39). He guides (John 16:13). He intercedes between persons (Romans 8:26). He is to be obeyed (Acts 10:19-20). He can be lied to (Acts 5:3), resisted (Acts 7:51), grieved (Ephesians 4:30), blasphemed (Matthew 12:31), even insulted (Hebrews 10:29). He relates to the apostles (Acts 15:28) and to each member of the Trinity (John 16:14; Matthew 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14). The personhood of the Holy Spirit is presented without question in the Bible... (http://www.gotquestions.org/Holy-Spirit-gender.html)
The Holy Ghost can also be "vexed" -- turning Him into One who contends against you. (Is. 63:10)
If the Holy Ghost can be spirit and divine...then Mormons need to ask themselves: Why can't the Father likewise be spirit and divine?
Young Mormons work to detect feelings of the Spirit
__________________________________________
Say what ???
Yep, even that is ‘work’. They really do not get it.
I can think of a "legion" of names to call the IT they are feeling, but I'll get banned from the religion forum for listing them.
Uh, that goes directly AGAINST the Bible, Mr. Top:
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8-9)
The "highest inspiration" is "higher than the earth" -- not supposed "common sense" from someone who taught that Adam is God for over 25 years! Or someone, like Young, who taught later in his life that the moon had inhabitants (Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 271, 1870)
Mormonism does not teach of the same Trinitarian God as most Christians. The Mormon “Heavenly Father” was once a man with a physical body just as was his son Jesus.
http://www.religionfacts.com/mormonism/beliefs/holy_spirit.htm
“Mormonism departs from mainstream Christianity, however, in teaching that the Holy Spirit is a “one in purpose with the Father and the Son, but is a separate being” [1] rather than an aspect of God or part of a Trinity.
Unlike God and Jesus, who have physical bodies, the Holy Spirit is pure spirit and has no body.”
Where is the scriptural evidence that the Holy Spirit speaks to us via our corrupted flesh?
Is there a biblical example where a known christian (man/woman of God) or a prophet prayed for confirmation via a physical feeling???... and God complied?
Next question... Is it physically possible for evil spirits to physically touch or in some way affect our nervous system so that we “feel” something? (Job comes to mind)
And finally, if our corrupted flesh is subject to manipulation by evil spirits, does it make sense that our flesh would be God’s first or favored choice in speaking directly with us? If so, then where in scripture are we counseled on being able to tell the difference?
Here’s some of the answer, from www.gotquestions.org:
Question: “Is a believer supposed to be able to feel the Holy Spirit?”
Answer: While certain ministries of the Holy Spirit may involve a feeling, such as conviction of sin, comfort, and empowerment, Scripture does not instruct us to base our relationship with the Holy Spirit on how or what we feel. Every born-again believer has the indwelling Holy Spirit. Jesus told us that when the Comforter has come He will be with us and in us. “And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you” (John 14:16-17). In other words, Jesus is sending one like Himself to be with us and in us.
We know the Holy Spirit is with us because God’s Word tells us that it is so. Every born-again believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, but not every believer is controlled by the Holy Spirit, and there is a distinct difference. When we step out in our flesh, we are not under the control of the Holy Spirit even though we are still indwelt by Him. The apostle Paul comments on this truth, and he uses an illustration that helps us to understand. “Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit” (Ephesians 5:18). Many people read this verse and interpret it to mean that the apostle Paul is speaking against wine. However, the context of this passage is the walk and the warfare of the Spirit-filled believer. Therefore, there is something more here than just a warning about drinking too much wine.
When people are drunk with too much wine, they exhibit certain characteristics: they become clumsy, their speech is slurred, and their judgment is impaired. The apostle Paul sets up a comparison here. Just as there are certain characteristics that identify someone who is controlled by too much wine, there should also be certain characteristics that identify someone who is controlled by the Holy Spirit. We read in Galatians 5:22-24 about the “fruit” of the Spirit. This is the Holy Spirit’s fruit, and it is exhibited by the born-again believer who is under His control.
The verb tense in Ephesians 5:18 indicates a continual process of “being filled” by the Holy Spirit. Since it is an exhortation, it follows that it is also possible to not be filled or controlled by the Spirit. The rest of Ephesians 5 gives us the characteristics of a Spirit-filled believer. “Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ” (Ephesians 5:19-21).
We are not filled with the Spirit because we feel we are, but because this is the privilege and possession of the Christian. Being filled or controlled by the Spirit is the result of walking in obedience to the Lord. This is a gift of grace and not an emotional feeling. Emotions can and will deceive us, and we can work ourselves up into an emotional frenzy that is purely from the flesh and not of the Holy Spirit. “So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature … Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit” (Galatians 5:16, 25).
Having said that, we cannot deny that there are times when we can be overwhelmed by the presence and the power of the Spirit, and this is often an emotional experience. When that happens, it is a joy like no other. King David “danced with all his might” (2 Samuel 6:14) when they brought up the Ark of the Covenant to Jerusalem. Experiencing joy by the Spirit is the understanding that as children of God we are being blessed by His grace. So, absolutely, the ministries of the Holy Spirit can involve our feelings and emotions. At the same time, we are not to base the assurance of our possession of the Holy Spirit on how we feel.
Mormon ping. You may all take turns railing and performing for one another in the Spirit of course. lol.
Thanks for the bump, II!
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed [is] willing, but the flesh [is] weak.
Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called [me] by his grace, (16) To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
2Cr 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Phl 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
1Jo 2:16 For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
I find NOTHING in scripture which reveres the flesh as trustworthy. It is not to be trusted.
For IF God were to speak to us through our flesh (physical feelings), would He not also be rewarding us for seeking after such physical feelings? Would He not be encouraging the very thing He has told us to deny???
If God speaks to his children according to the flesh, then of what use is faith? Of what use is our mind or spirit?
If someone tells me that God confirmed something to them in their physical body, that to me is evidence that it was NOT from God.
We appreciate your brief railing, II. (It all adds to the bump)
Do what?
So they are going to combine Christianity-Lite with Pentecostal?
Next they will be speaking in tongues?
gibber?
You've just committed the same problem as to why this thread was initiated.
The "organizing document of the kingdom of heaven" to which you reference is impersonal -- exactly the way many Mormons address the Spirit of God -- as impersonal.
What was the Messiah's understanding of the Torah and the rest of the Old Testament scriptures???...was His focus on the impersonal (the Scriptures) or the Personal -- that which the Scriptures testified to?
You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me... (John 5:39)
Sorry, but Yeshua said the purpose of these scriptures was HIM! (Not simply to organize a kingdom)
Even the Torah is but a reflection/image of our Lord's character. His attributes. Character is rooted in the personal -- not the impersonal (kingdom organization).
**...the Torah of Israel, which is eternal and cannot change. That is the organizing document of the kingdom of heaven. There is no other.**
So, what sin did Israel commit that was so horrible that God allowed the Temple to be destroyed a second time and the Hebrews scattered throughout the world. The first destruction was for seventy years. The last destruction has been for 1940 years.
Exactly 40 years after the crucifiction of Jesus, to be precise.
Exactly.
And the temple that really mattered to undergo destruction was the One of Jesus' body:
Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." The Jews replied, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?" But the temple he had spoken of was his body. (John 2:19-21)
So, Torahman: what sin did all of us commit that was so horrible that God allowed the Temple of His Son to be destroyed on the cross? (That destruction was for 3 days; and your body won't be destroyed eternally if you believe in Yeshua the Messiah's temple destruction to cover yours!)
We are called to live in accordance with the Spirit. I would be hard pressed to say that the reports of these Mormons are not actually influenced by the Spirit.
Romans 8:
5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires;
but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.
6The mind of sinful man[e] is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace;
7the sinful mind[f] is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.
8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
Why would the Temple’s destruction have to be a punishment? Perhaps it was to scatter Jews across the world for the purpose of making converts, and to bring the Torah to the non-Jewish world. What a wondrous people that would suffer in order to bring truth to others!
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