Posted on 02/10/2010 2:26:50 PM PST by sealedteam
Thanks for the info! I never knew that about Calvin. I knew he believed in sacramental salvation. Similar to RC and Luth., but with a twist. But I do have to agree with Calvin about Jesus in Hades. Acts 2:24 makes that clear, "God ended His agony" by raising Him. There are a few other verses that help. If anyone is interested there is a study on the topic @ www.gnmc.us
Yes, a major distinctive between Calvin and most Protestants vis a vis Lutherans is the view of the sacraments.
What I have long wanted to find, and which some FReeper on this thread may help me with, is Calvin’s view on how the 4th commandment (Sabbath) is to be kept today.
I have been told my personal view coincides with Calvin’s, but even though I looked it up in his works, I can’t find his view.
Was this supposed to be a reply to another thread?
noob at the keyboard
Religious KOOK Alert!
Jesus suffering in Hades? Why would Jesus suffer while in Hades?
Go to the Institutes, book II, Chapter VIII , section 29. Calvin devotes a six page exposition of the post resurrection significance of the sabbath.
Either the heat or the humidity.
I was more interested in how it should be kept.
I will check out this section. Thanks.
Where have you been friend and how is the barbecue?
JESUS SUFFERED OUR PENALTY
THE PENALTY FOR OUR SINS
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
The word “death” in the verse above does not mean physical death, since even those with “eternal life” have died physically. In the above context “death” is a synonym for both the torment of flames in “Hades,” (the first “death”) and, as we see below, eternal torment in the lake of fire (the second “death”).
Revelation 20:11-15 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Notice in the above verses how “death and Hades” are used together. We will see that again later. Jesus mentions another way to describe the two places where people may spend their eternity in Matthew 25:41, 46.
“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; . . . . these will go away into eternal punishment but the righteous into eternal life.”
HADES (synonym of hell) is mentioned ten times in the New Testament, five times by Jesus. It always refers to the place of the punished unsaved inside the earth, and is usually synonymous with “lower” Sheol, “Abaddon,” the "pit," and the “lower parts of the earth” in the Old Testament.
Deuteronomy 32:22 “For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and burns unto the lowest part of Sheol, And devours the earth with its increase, And sets on fire the foundations of the mountains.”
In the Old Testament Sheol (i.e. upper Sheol) corresponds to the pre-resurrection “Abraham’s bosom” of the New Testament. Upper “Sheol,” inside the earth, separate, and above Hades, was the temporary dwelling place of saved people who died before Christ’s resurrection. People in upper Sheol could see and talk to those below in Hades, as we see in Luke 16:19-30. Jesus emptied upper Sheol after His resurrection. Since then the souls of the saved who have died go directly to heaven, to wait for the resurrection of the body. (II Cor. 5:6-9, Eph. 4:8)
In Luke 16, Jesus gives an actual, literal account of a man whose departed soul is experiencing HADES even now, as you read this. In verse 22 his body is buried. In verse 23 the man’s soul is conscious of his whereabouts, “and in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment,” (severe pain and torture). In verse 24 he is still conscious and cries out, "Father Abraham!" He is speaking to the soul of Abraham, a REAL person, not a fictitious person. He asks if Abraham, who is in that separate place, above Hades, would have mercy on him and send the soul of Lazarus, another REAL person, to "dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, because I am in AGONY in this FLAME."
This is literal “AGONY” and it truly means suffering and pain. In Luke 16:27-30, knowing that he himself cannot leave Hades, the man BEGS Abraham to send Lazarus back from the dead to his family still living on earth, to warn them of this place of TORMENT. (They, like he, didn't believe there was such a place!) Abraham’s answer in verses 29-31 is summarized as “Let them read the Bible!” (“Moses and the prophets”—the Old Testament, completed approximately 500 B.C.)
“And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house— for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ “But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ “But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ “But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’ ” (Luke 16:27-31)
In other words, if they won’t accept the Bible’s testimony of Hades, they won’t listen even if someone “rises from the dead.” But someone did come back, not only from the dead, but from the flames of Hades—Jesus—and people still do not listen.
PROPHECY OF SUFFERING IN LOWER SHEOL—THE ABYSS
As Jesus points out in Matt. 12:40, the prophet Jonah typified the future suffering of the Messiah as our substitute and sin bearer.
"for just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth [Hades]. "
The following verses reveal that Jonah had experienced “death!” His body was in the great fish, but his soul was in the “depth of Sheol.” Jonah suffered in agony for three days and three nights, as did our Lord Jesus when He paid for our sins. Then Jonah, like Jesus, was “brought up from the pit” (or the “abyss,” Gk. Septuagint.).
Jonah 2:2, 5-6 and he said, “I called out of my distress to the Lord, and He answered me. I cried for help from the depth of Sheol; you heard my voice. Water encompassed me to the point of death. The great deep engulfed me, weeds were wrapped around my head. I descended to the roots of the mountains. The earth with its bars was around me forever, But You have brought up my life from the pit, O Lord my God.”
THE CRIMINAL ON THE CROSS
Luke 23:43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise."
Jesus did not go to "Paradise" that day, but to "the heart of the earth,” and would be there for “three days and three nights" after His physical death, as we saw earlier in Matt. 12:40. "Paradise" is a synonym for "heaven," not a synonym for Abraham’s bosom or upper Sheol (II Cor. 12:4, Rev. 2:7). What Jesus is literally saying is "Today I say to you, you shall be with Me in [heaven] Paradise.” This actually happened when Jesus ascended into heaven and “led captive a host of captives,” (Eph.4:8). Jesus was “the first born from the dead” (Col 2:15)
JESUS IN AGONY IN HADES
God’s word also speaks of HADES in Acts 2:27: "Because Thou wilt not abandon my soul to Hades, nor allow Thy Holy One to undergo decay." After Jesus died for our sins He went to the same place as the man in Luke 16. Acts 2:31 states, “. . . he [David] looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that He [Jesus] was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh suffer decay.” Now go back seven verses to Acts 2:24, ”And God raised Him up again, putting an end to the AGONY of death . . . ."
“AGONY!” Here Peter uses a synonym of the word his Lord use in Luke 16:24 and 25, Peter uses this word to describe the pangs, pain, and suffering of Hades or hell—a place of torment. Jesus was in “agony” for our sins; this verse clearly teaches that it was the resurrection that ended the “agony!”
Once again look at Acts 2:31. Peter is giving testimony about Jesus Christ and that God would not allow His Son's soul to be "abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh suffer decay” in the tomb, fulfilling the prophecy that He would rise again after three days and three nights, having PAID the eternal death (Hades and lake of fire) penalty for those who would believe (Luke 24:26 and Mark 8:31).
THE ABYSS
Rev. 9:1-2 "And the fifth angel sounded and I saw a star from heaven which had fallen to the earth; and the key of the bottomless pit (Gk. abyss) was given to him. And he opened the bottomless pit (Gk. abyss); and the smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke of the pit.”
ABYSS (Gk. abussos, sometimes translated “bottomless pit”) is found nine times in the New Testament and is always a synonym for hell and Hades. As we saw with Jonah, we see again in the following verse that Christ was in that “abyss” with the spiritually “dead,” suffering for our sins.
Romans 10:7 “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss,’ that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.?”
In his letter to the Ephesians, the apostle Paul uses a different phrase to communicate the fact that Jesus was suffering the wages of (our) sin with the “dead,” in “Hades,” or in the “abyss.”
Ephesians 4:9-10 Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things. (Note parallel to Rom. 10:6-7, "ascend, descend")
JESUS PROCLAIMS TO THOSE WITH HIM IN THE ABYSS
1 Peter 3:18-20a For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobedient.
All the spirits of unsaved disobedient people are now, and have been since their death, in the prison of Hades--the abyss. Jesus made proclamation to them while He was there for three days and three nights.
Hebrews 2:9,14 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, . . .
In Rev. 6:8a we see one of the devil’s names: “. . . and behold, a pale horse: and he that sat upon him, his name was Death; and Hades followed with him.”
Jesus tells us in Revelation 1:18 that He “was dead,” but now He is alive and has the “keys of death and of Hades.” Jesus is the VICTOR! He has “through death” defeated him whose name is “Death!” He not only took the pain and agony of the cross that we all deserve, but also “tasted death”—the agony of His soul in the flames of lower Sheol, the “pit,” Hades, the abyss, or the “lower parts of the earth” -- that we all deserve.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life;
he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and
everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die.
Do you believe this?”
John 11:25-26
How are you?
Have you started another church since the Lord closed the other door? Seems like you had a good nucleus for a work in a needy area and you had a good vision for the work.
I remain disillusioned and hardened somewhat over what happened and have determined that Im not fit for the pastorate until which time my disappointment and anger subside. Im not entirely confident God was the driving force over what happened, as the handprints were clearly not His. I realize giving in to my anger lends hand to the devils work, but theres a lot of healing that needs to happen before I can lead a flock again.
Its our hope to form our own 501(c)(3) and have her ordination transferred into that, so she can operate independently....thats on the short list for '10
LOL.....
Hey Irish whats happening??
Busy, busy, busy. Doing lots of writing, done a few sermons, writing and performing puppets, etc. Thinking of going back to school... I graduated back in 72, so I have to think hard if I am going to do it :>)
Do it..I went back after 15 years and never regretted it ..we approach learning differently as adults... do you have a blog??
“Do it..I went back after 15 years and never regretted it’
I went back to seminary after 17 years out of law school and never regretted it. Of course K did but someone had to sacrifice. I tried to tell her it was producing character but, well....
LOL..well you are a character
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