How sad that so many require a piece of cloth of questionable origin to help justify their faith.
How sad that so many would spend so much time trying to debunk a piece of cloth in order to debunk an entire faith.
How sad that skeptics feel so threatened by a piece of cloth.
Since it’s just a stooooooopppppppiiiiiid piece of cloth, how come you Catholic-hating Calvinists don’t just ignore it?
How come you are irrationally compelled to jump on all Shroud threads?
It’s just a piece of cloth, isn’t it?
While our faith does not depend on it, your Calvinism seems to depend on debunking it.
Odd, now, isn’t it?
Get a life. Post on your Calvinist threads and leave the meaningless Shroud threads to those fools who study historical artifacts historically.
And let the record show, should affronted Calvinists whine to the Religion Moderator, that Gamecock was the first on this thread to personalize what was up to that point a discussion of the historical merits of the Haaretz article’s reasoning about the leper shroud.
Gamecock accused us of making our faith depend on a piece of cloth.
That’s a falsehood, because our faith does not depend on the Shroud. Gamecock knows it’s a falsehood. It was done to inflame. Gamecock sent his reply to his fellow Calvinists to invite them to hijack this thread.
I did not personalize this.
So many what?
Who requires a piece of cloth of questionable origin to help justify their faith?
It is true that St Ambrose, in speaking of Helena, the mother of the Emperor Constantine the Great, who sought with great trouble and expense for the cross of our Lord, says that she did not worship the wood, but the Lord who was suspended upon it. But it is a very rare thing, that a heart disposed to value any relics whatever should not become to a certain degree polluted by some superstition.
I admit that people do not arrive at once at open idolatry, but they gradually advance from one abuse to another until they fall into this extremity, and, indeed, those who call themselves Christians have, in this respect, idolatrized as much as Pagans ever did. They have prostrated themselves, and knelt before relics, just as if they were worshipping God; they have burnt candles before them in sign of homage; they have placed their confidence in them, and have prayed to them, as if the virtue and the grace of God had entered into them. Now, if idolatry be nothing else than the transfer elsewhere of the honor which is due to God, can it be denied that this is idolatry? This cannot be excused by pretending that it was only the improper zeal of some idiots or foolish women, for it was a general custom approved by those who had the government of the church, and who had even placed the bones of the dead and other relics on the high altar, in the greatest and most prominent places, in order that they should be worshipped with more certainty.
It is thus that the foolish fancy which people had at first for collecting relics, ended in this open abomination, — they not only turned from God, in order to amuse themselves with vain and corruptible things, but even went on to the execrable sacrilege of worshipping dead and insensible creatures, instead of the one living God. Now, as one evil never comes alone but is always followed by another, it thus happened that where people were seeking for relics, either of Jesus Christ or the saints, they became so blind that whatever name was imposed upon any rubbish presented to them, they received it without any examination or judgment; thus the bones of an ass or dog, which any hawker gave out to be the bones of a martyr, were devoutly received without any difficulty. This was the case with all of them, as will be shown hereafter.
For my own part, I have no doubt that this has been a great punishment inflicted by God. Because, as the world was craving after relics, and turning them to a wicked and superstitious use, it was very likely that God would permit one lie to follow another; for this is the way in which he punishes the dishonor done to his name, when the glory due to him is transferred elsewhere. Indeed, the only reason why there are so many false and imaginary relics is, that God has permitted the world to be doubly deceived and fallen, since it has so loved deceit and lies.
The first Christians left the bodies of the saints in their graves, obeying the universal sentence, that all flesh is dust, and TO DUST IT MUST RETURN, and did not attempt their resurrection before the appointed time by raising them in pomp and state. This example has not been followed by their successors; on the contrary, the bodies of the faithful, in opposition to the command of God, have been disinterred in order to be glorified, when they ought to have remained in their places of repose awaiting the last judgment.
John Calvin's Treatise on Relics