Relic of Saint Mary Magdalene...Makes First North American Tour

Reuters ^ | October 21, 2009

[NYer]

NEW YORK, Oct. 21 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- A relic of Saint Mary Magdalene, often referred to as the Apostle of the Apostles, is making its first North American tour. The relic, a major piece of her tibia, will be carried in a reliquary to the United States by Father Thomas Michelet, a French Dominican priest. Its first stop is on October 22nd in Gainesville, Georgia at Saint Michael's Catholic Church where it will be venerated all through the night.

The purpose of the tour, which continues through November 30th, and travels to Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, New York and Florida, is to share the holiness of the relic and to tell the story of the saint who is recorded as the first witness to the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Father Thomas Michelet is touring with the permission of Bishop Dominique Rey of Frejus-Toulon, France, the relic's home. A letter of authentication from Bishop Rey reports that the relics were hidden at the time of the Saracen invasions and rediscovered in 1279, and have been venerated without interruption ever since.

Richard Borgman, a former Protestant evangelical pastor who experienced a dramatic conversion to Catholicism seven years ago, initiated the tour. His interest in Mary Magdalene began when he and his wife, also a lay missionary, lived with Bishop Dominic Rey below the mountains of Saint Baume, the grotto where Mary Magdalene spent the last 30 years of her life. Saint Baume means holy perfume-- the smell that Mary Magdalene's bones gave off when they were found.

[Mr Rogers]

“Why does Mark 12 use baptizo to indicate the washing of hands?”

About baptizo: “This word should not be confused with baptô (911). The clearest example that shows the meaning of baptizo is a text from the Greek poet and physician Nicander, who lived about 200 B.C. It is a recipe for making pickles and is helpful because it uses both words. Nicander says that in order to make a pickle, the vegetable should first be ‘dipped’ (baptô) into boiling water and then ‘baptised’ (baptizô) in the vinegar solution. Both verbs concern the immersing of vegetables in a solution. But the first is temporary. The second, the act of baptising the vegetable, produces a permanent change.”

Also - Mark 7? “3(For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands, holding to the tradition of the elders, 4and when they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash.”

Ummm...when you wash your hands, do you dip a finger in water, or immerse them in water? Just wondering, in case I’m ever in your neck of the woods (wherever that is) and you invite me to lunch...

;>)

[MarkBsnr]

“Anew” may come closer to a good translation than either again or above, since it combines those meanings. And BOTH are appropriate. One must be born again - the birth of the flesh isn’t enough, as Jesus makes clear. There is another birth needed. And this birth is from above - a birth of the Spirit. The birth of this world won’t do it. Another birth, from above, is needed.

The problem with the idea of 'again' or even 'anew' is that it indicates a repeat of a prior event or condition. 'From above' is radically different and starkly indicates that. I suppose that your reply is probably the closest that we're likely to get in the short term, until the hijacking Holy Spirit sneaks up on you and makes you Catholic. :)

[Mr Rogers]

““Water does not mean baptism and baptism does not mean water, in any language...””

But Vlad corrects (?) with, “Actually baptism - in Greek - implies cleaning with water.”

From “mean” to “imply”...however, I thank Vlad for supporting immersion. Assuming vladimir998 also immerses his hands in water when washing, as opposed to dripping a spoon of water on them.

[MarkBsnr]

About baptizo: “This word should not be confused with baptô (911). The clearest example that shows the meaning of baptizo is a text from the Greek poet and physician Nicander, who lived about 200 B.C. It is a recipe for making pickles and is helpful because it uses both words. Nicander says that in order to make a pickle, the vegetable should first be ‘dipped’ (baptô) into boiling water and then ‘baptised’ (baptizô) in the vinegar solution. Both verbs concern the immersing of vegetables in a solution. But the first is temporary. The second, the act of baptising the vegetable, produces a permanent change.”

Also - Mark 7? “3(For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands, holding to the tradition of the elders, 4and when they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash.”

With your permission, I'll ping my friend Kosta to the post. I vaguely remember a long time ago a discussion on this and just perhaps he was a contributor.

[roamer_1]

It seems unlikely that the Pharisees immersed their entire bodies in water before eating, every time they passed through the marketplace. It is more likely that this baptism is a symbolic, ceremonial washing, probably involving just the hands.

Yes, they did in fact submerge themselves... The more wealthy of the priests (which was most of them) had ceremonial baths (for submersion) built into their houses. Archaeologists know the houses of priests by this feature.

[roamer_1]

This verse alone proves that there is no water baptism in John 3:5...

BUMP.

[ichabod1]

OFten we are told it means something quite different than that which it clearly states.

[Iscool]

Mark 7:4 uses same Greek word “baptizo” (baptism) when referring to the washing practice of the Pharisees. “When they come from the market, except they wash [baptizo], they eat not.” It seems unlikely that the Pharisees immersed their entire bodies in water before eating, every time they passed through the marketplace. It is more likely that this baptism is a symbolic, ceremonial washing, probably involving just the hands. This is also likely the case in Luke 11:38 where the Pharisee disapproved of Jesus for not baptizing himself [baptizo] (i.e., washing) before dinner.

It seems unlikely??? That's where your theology takes you??? It seems???

In this case, they are talking about water...And the idea is to get 'fully' wet...As in immersion...

Do not say that we must be born again, if Scripture actually shows Jesus correcting Nicodemus when Nicodemus said it, if you would hold to sola Scriptura.

Nonsense...Jesus said we must be born again...If Jesus had said we must be born from above, Nicodemus wouldn't have questioned Him on how one gets born twice from the womb...

If YOU are not born again, you will not see the Kingdom of God...God says so...

[Mr Rogers]

BTW - like many Baptists, I strongly prefer baptism by immersion. However, based on the examples in Acts, I’d prefer it being done quickly to being done solely by dunking. Living in Arizona, I can understand how folks in desert places might not have a deep tub nearby...particularly when there was no plumbing!

However, I think modern Baptists don’t put enough emphasis on Baptism. Baptism doesn’t require classes first, or doctrinal indoctrination. It should happen when someone believes, as best as it is possible. If they don’t truly believe, they will fall away in time. God alone knows their hearts, anyways.

[onedoug]

‘Think I’ll pass. Thanks anyway.

[roamer_1]

By tossing a spoon of dirt at their forehead?

:D

[Mr Rogers]

From Vine’s Expository Dictionary...hand typed, not cut & paste!

“primarily a frequentative form of bapto, to dip, was used by the Greeks to signify the dyeing of a garment, or the drawing of water by dipping a vessel into another...Plato, metaphorically, of being overwhelmed with questions...”

1 Corinthians 10 has, “ 1For I want you to know, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea...”

“Under the cloud” and “through the sea”.

[Iscool]

Mar 7:3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.
Mar 7:4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.

SIGH.....

Why do you Catholics go for the line and sinker every time your magisterium throws you a hook???

'except they wash'

νίπτω
niptō
nip'-to
To cleanse (especially the hands or the feet or the face); ceremonially to perform ablution: - wash.

Verse 3 is washing their hands...Verse 4 is taking a bath, including the head...

[rdl6989]

Very sad indeed.

[vladimir998]

Either way, baptism includes water.

Look again at the verse from Mark.

[Mr Rogers]

See post 72...Plato, metaphorically for being overwhelmed with questions. Also, it was used for immersing the soon to be pickle in vinegar.

Not always water, which is why the baptism of the Holy Spirit isn’t a water baptism.

[kosta50]

Thanks for the ping; your memory is good. What Mr. Rogers says regarding the difference between bapto and baptiso is correct. Early Christians baptized in living water (rivers) or, more commonly, in baptismal fonts or pools.  Most Orthodox churches to this day use baptismal fonts (pools), which is the preferred method. But, the Church had to make provisions for those situations where a baptismal font was was available. When such pools are not available, pouring baptismal water over the entire body is acceptable. It is very important that the person being baptized is completely wet from head to toe, as if he or she were actually dunked into the water.

What the Catholics do, i.e. spooning a little of the blessed water over an infant's head, or worse, sprinkling, is not a proper baptism in the true sense of the word. The idea of baptism or immersion implies contact with water over the entire body, i.e. the body literally being "buried" in water in order for the "permanent change" to take place (baptiso

[kosta50]

Also - Mark 7? “3(For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands, holding to the tradition of the elders, 4and when they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash.” [Mr. Rogers, #61]

The word Mark used is nipto (to wash, to wash oneself), not baptiso.

[Iscool]

“Tell us with a straight face that baptize in this verse means water: Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:”

Okay, my face is perfectly straight: The above means water baptism.

That doesn't answer the question I ask, does it???

And how do you know this is water baptism??? Because the verse tells you..."I baptize WITH water"...Can someone be baptized with something else??? Of course they can...

As the verse says, one can be baptized with fire...And one can be baptized with (not by) the Holy Spirit...

When one is baptized with water, it' is immersion in the water...When one is baptized by the Holy Spirit, it is immersion in the Holy Spirit...

Baptize does not mean water...And water does not mean baptize...Things that are different are not the same...

[Iscool]

Why does Mark 12 use baptizo to indicate the washing of hands?

Mark does not use baptizo to indicate the washing of hands...