What is the purpose of venerating the relics of Mary Magdalene or any relic for that matter?Why do we build memorials?
Posted on 11/14/2009 1:09:01 PM PST by NYer
NEW YORK, Oct. 21 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- A relic of Saint Mary Magdalene, often referred to as the Apostle of the Apostles, is making its first North American tour. The relic, a major piece of her tibia, will be carried in a reliquary to the United States by Father Thomas Michelet, a French Dominican priest. Its first stop is on October 22nd in Gainesville, Georgia at Saint Michael's Catholic Church where it will be venerated all through the night.
The purpose of the tour, which continues through November 30th, and travels to Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, New York and Florida, is to share the holiness of the relic and to tell the story of the saint who is recorded as the first witness to the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Father Thomas Michelet is touring with the permission of Bishop Dominique Rey of Frejus-Toulon, France, the relic's home. A letter of authentication from Bishop Rey reports that the relics were hidden at the time of the Saracen invasions and rediscovered in 1279, and have been venerated without interruption ever since.
Richard Borgman, a former Protestant evangelical pastor who experienced a dramatic conversion to Catholicism seven years ago, initiated the tour. His interest in Mary Magdalene began when he and his wife, also a lay missionary, lived with Bishop Dominic Rey below the mountains of Saint Baume, the grotto where Mary Magdalene spent the last 30 years of her life. Saint Baume means holy perfume-- the smell that Mary Magdalene's bones gave off when they were found.
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You are correct. The cult of Rome added this canonization of people to its growing list of errant theology. Such inordinate adoration of people operates to create a class distinction controlled by headquarters.
But, you are absolutely right. The Scriptures calls every born again believer in Jesus Christ, a saint. The question really becomes, how many relying on and associated with Rome have been born again? Watch the fur fly now.
Ah, the spirit of egalitarianism in "Reformed" Christianity, the same that flowed through the French Revolution and communism.
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According to the Catholic (not exclusively so, but I speak as a Catholic) theology, the souls of those of us who die justified will be with Christ in heaven, but we shall still be separated from our body. Such is the condition of saints, both known, or canonized, and unknown saints. At the second coming of Christ, we shall be reunited with our bodies, which will receive a glorified state. The condemned will be reunited with their bodies as well, and receive eternal punishment.
Ordinary objects (for example, a chicken bone) wil not be similarly transformed.
When you look at a (first class) relic of a saint, two things happen. Firstly, this is a good occasion to venerate the saint herself: to ask for her prayers, to reflect on her virtue and try to imitate her in our own travails. Secondly, and specifically when a relic is venerated, he behold an object which, unlike a chicken bone, has eternal destiny. This is therefore an occasion to reflect on the divine plan for the universe and for our salvation, and ponder the destiny of our own body. When we see that time-weathered bone, we thank our Savior Whose will is to transform it into glory we can scarcely imagine. It is nothing less than a cosmic experience.
One additional reflection specially applies to our sick age. The Church teaches us to respect our body: it pleased the Lord to give us our flesh and the Lord chose to take flesh for our salvation. But we are confused by the modern culture which takes that healthy instinct, Catholic at its core, and perverts it into a carnal cult of physical strength and sexual attraction. We moderns, of all ages, need to venerate the holy relics as often as we can, in order to gain insight into the true reason our body has been given us, and purge the error of modernity from our mental landscape.
You wrote:
“You are correct. The cult of Rome added this canonization of people to its growing list of errant theology.”
Uh, no.
“Such inordinate adoration of people operates to create a class distinction controlled by headquarters.”
No adoration takes place. The saints are venerated. Also, veneration of saints is certainly not “controlled” by “headquarters”. Clearly you know little about the saints or how people have looked at them over the centuries.
“But, you are absolutely right. The Scriptures calls every born again believer in Jesus Christ, a saint. The question really becomes, how many relying on and associated with Rome have been born again? Watch the fur fly now.”
All people baptized properly are born again. Period. How they live after that is their choice.
“All people baptized properly are born again.”
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
“That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” - Jesus
Dipping, immersing or splashing water won’t control the Holy Spirit.
Well, yes and no. One may be 'born again' but lose one's faith. Scripture is clear on this. "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." - Matthew 7:21. The most important form of veneration of the saints is "imitating" the saints, as Paul commands us to do (1 Cor. 4:16). To Catholics, those that have fought the good fight and "endure unto the end, the same shall be saved" (Matthew 24:13). Those the Church proclaim to be saints, have done just that.
Now I am envious! Mary Magdalene is one of my patron saints and I used to live not far from mmaculate Conception Seminary in Huntington, N.Y. I grew up on LI and still miss the sensation of the surf washing over my feet. :-(
You wrote:
“Dipping, immersing or splashing water won’t control the Holy Spirit.”
It’s not about control. It’s about the promise.
The grace of baptism washes away sins. In the very chapter you quoted what is it that Jesus and the Apostles are doing? They are baptizing.
Born Again in Baptism (from Catholic Answers)
One key Scripture reference to being “born again” or “regenerated” is John 3:5, where Jesus says, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”
This verse is so important that those who say baptism is just a symbol must deny that Jesus here refers to baptism. “Born again” Christians claim the “water” is the preached word of God.
But the early Christians uniformly identified this verse with baptism. Water baptism is the way, they said, that we are born again and receive new life—a fact that is supported elsewhere in Scripture (Rom. 6:3–4; Col. 2:12–13; Titus 3:5).
No Church Father referred to John 3:5 as anything other than water baptism.
Justin Martyr
“As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]” (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).
Irenaeus
“‘And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’” (Fragment 34 [A.D. 190]).
Tertullian
“[N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, ‘Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life’” (Baptism 12:1 [A.D. 203]).
Hippolytus
“The Father of immortality sent the immortal Son and Word into the world, who came to man in order to wash him with water and the Spirit; and he, begetting us again to incorruption of soul and body, breathed into us the Spirit of life, and endued us with an incorruptible panoply. If, therefore, man has become immortal, he will also be God. And if he is made God by water and the Holy Spirit after the regeneration of the laver he is found to be also joint-heir with Christ after the resurrection from the dead. Wherefore I preach to this effect: Come, all ye kindreds of the nations, to the immortality of the baptism” (Discourse on the Holy Theophany 8 [A.D. 217]).
The Recognitions of Clement
“But you will perhaps say, ‘What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?’ In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so . . . you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: ‘Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water . . . he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’” (The Recognitions of Clement 6:9 [A.D. 221]).
Testimonies Concerning the Jews
“That unless a man have been baptized and born again, he cannot attain unto the kingdom of God. In the Gospel according to John: ‘Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’ [John 3:5]. . . . Also in the same place: ‘Unless ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye shall not have life in you’ [John 6:53]. That it is of small account to be baptized and to receive the Eucharist, unless one profit by it both in deeds and works” (Testimonies Concerning the Jews 3:2:25–26 [A.D. 240]).
Cyprian of Carthage
“[When] they receive also the baptism of the Church . . . then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God . . . since it is written, ‘Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’” (Letters 71[72]:1 [A.D. 253]).
Council of Carthage VII
“And in the gospel our Lord Jesus Christ spoke with his divine voice, saying, ‘Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ . . . Unless therefore they receive saving baptism in the Catholic Church, which is one, they cannot be saved, but will be condemned with the carnal in the judgment of the Lord Christ” (Seventh Carthage [A.D. 256]).
Cyril of Jerusalem
“Since man is of a twofold nature, composed of body and soul, the purification also is twofold: the corporeal for the corporeal and the incorporeal for the incorporeal. The water cleanses the body, and the Spirit seals the soul. . . . When you go down into the water, then, regard not simply the water, but look for salvation through the power of the Spirit. For without both you cannot attain to perfection. It is not I who says this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter. And he says, ‘Unless a man be born again,’ and he adds the words ‘of water and of the Spirit,’ ‘he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ He that is baptized with water, but is not found worthy of the Spirit, does not receive the grace in perfection. Nor, if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but does not receive the seal by means of the water, shall he enter the kingdom of heaven. A bold saying, but not mine; for it is Jesus who has declared it” (Catechetical Lectures 3:4 [A.D. 350]).
Athanasius
“[A]s we are all from earth and die in Adam, so being regenerated from above of water and Spirit, in the Christ we are all quickened” (Four Discourses Against the Arians 3:26[33] [A.D. 360]).
Basil the Great
“This then is what it means to be ‘born again of water and Spirit’: Just as our dying is effected in the water [Rom. 6:3; Col. 2:12–13], our living is wrought through the Spirit. In three immersions and an equal number of invocations the great mystery of baptism is completed in such a way that the type of death may be shown figuratively, and that by the handing on of divine knowledge the souls of the baptized may be illuminated. If, therefore, there is any grace in the water, it is not from the nature of water, but from the Spirit’s presence there” (The Holy Spirit 15:35 [A.D. 375]).
Ambrose of Milan
“Although we are baptized with water and the Spirit, the latter is much superior to the former, and is not therefore to be separated from the Father and the Son. There are, however, many who, because we are baptized with water and the Spirit, think that there is no difference in the offices of water and the Spirit, and therefore think that they do not differ in nature. Nor do they observe that we are buried in the element of water that we may rise again renewed by the Spirit. For in the water is the representation of death, in the Spirit is the pledge of life, that the body of sin may die through the water, which encloses the body as it were in a kind of tomb, that we, by the power of the Spirit, may be renewed from the death of sin, being born again in God” (The Holy Spirit 1:6[75–76] [A.D. 381]).
“The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ’s blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed, he must circumcise himself from his sins [in baptism (Col. 2:11–12)] so that he can be saved . . . for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the sacrament of baptism.
. . . ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God’” (Abraham 2:11:79–84 [A.D. 387]).
“You have read, therefore, that the three witnesses in baptism are one: water, blood, and the Spirit (1 John 5:8): And if you withdraw any one of these, the sacrament of baptism is not valid. For what is the water without the cross of Christ? A common element with no sacramental effect. Nor on the other hand is there any mystery of regeneration without water, for ‘unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God’” (The Mysteries 4:20 [A.D. 390]).
Gregory of Nyssa
“[In] the birth by water and the Spirit, [Jesus] himself led the way in this birth, drawing down upon the water, by his own baptism, the Holy Spirit; so that in all things he became the firstborn of those who are spiritually born again, and gave the name of brethren to those who partook in a birth like to his own by water and the Spirit” (Against Eunomius 2:8 [A.D. 382]).
John Chrysostom
“[N]o one can enter into the kingdom of heaven except he be regenerated through water and the Spirit, and he who does not eat the flesh of the Lord and drink his blood is excluded from eternal life, and if all these things are accomplished only by means of those holy hands, I mean the hands of the priest, how will any one, without these, be able to escape the fire of hell, or to win those crowns which are reserved for the victorious? These [priests] truly are they who are entrusted with the pangs of spiritual travail and the birth which comes through baptism: by their means we put on Christ, and are buried with the Son of God, and become members of that blessed head [the Mystical Body of Christ]” (The Priesthood 3:5–6 [A.D. 387]).
Gregory of Nazianz
“Such is the grace and power of baptism; not an overwhelming of the world as of old, but a purification of the sins of each individual, and a complete cleansing from all the bruises and stains of sin. And since we are double-made, I mean of body and soul, and the one part is visible, the other invisible, so the cleansing also is twofold, by water and the Spirit; the one received visibly in the body, the other concurring with it invisibly and apart from the body; the one typical, the other real and cleansing the depths” (Oration on Holy Baptism 7–8 [A.D. 388]).
The Apostolic Constitutions
“Be ye likewise contented with one baptism alone, that which is into the death of the Lord [Rom. 6:3; Col. 2:12–13]. . . . [H]e that out of contempt will not be baptized shall be condemned as an unbeliever and shall be reproached as ungrateful and foolish. For the Lord says, ‘Except a man be baptized of water and of the Spirit, he shall by no means enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ And again, ‘He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believes not shall be damned’” [Mark 16:16] (Apostolic Constitutions 6:3:15 [A.D. 400]).
Augustine
“It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that infant is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, ‘Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents’ or ‘by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him,’ but, ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit.’ The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam” (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 412]).
“Those who, though they have not received the washing of regeneration, die for the confession of Christ—it avails them just as much for the forgiveness of their sins as if they had been washed in the sacred font of baptism. For he that said, ‘If anyone is not reborn of water and the Spirit, he will not enter the kingdom of heaven,’ made an exception for them in that other statement in which he says no less generally, ‘Whoever confesses me before men, I too will confess him before my Father, who is in heaven’” [Matt. 10:32] (The City of God 13:7 [A.D. 419]).
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Sorry you missed my post #5. In Scripture, the use of the bones of Elisha brought a dead man to life: "So Elisha died, and they buried him. Now bands of Moabites used to invade the land in the spring of the year. And as a man was being buried, lo, a marauding band was seen and the man was cast into the grave of Elisha; and as soon as the man touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood on his feet" (2 Kgs. 13:20-21). This is an unequivocal biblical example of a miracle being performed by God through contact with the relics of a saint!
You can learn more about saintly relics at post #5.
Do take lots of pictures and post them to the forum! St. Mary Magdalene is one of my patron saints. What an honor and privilege to have her relic visit your parish.
Are you saying that one can lose his salvation? Yes we are suppose to live up to the Saint title but none the less I go back to my original point. The scripture calls all born again believers Saints. Argue from any direction or add little tid bits to it but bottom line, it is true.
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Obama Says A Baby Is A Punishment
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What is the purpose of venerating the relics of Mary Magdalene or any relic for that matter?Why do we build memorials?
Where in Scripture does the term "born again" appear?
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Juvenile and indicative of character mayhap. Sad at least.
Oh, you’ve GOT to be kidding...
I am quoting Scripture which states that one must endure to the end. If one can simply be saved by making an altar call and then go about sinning the rest of their lives, then you are calling Christ a liar.
Man must be born again of water and the spirit. We would say, at Baptism (and Confirmation, which is the other half of what is generally meant by Adult Baptism).
But of course there has been an awful lot of additional 'gloss' added to that short explication.
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