Posted on 09/24/2009 8:55:54 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator
Who was b*ddha? How do you describe his character and nature?
Who was Mohammed? How do you describe his character and nature?
Who was Guru Nanak? How do you describe his character and nature?
Who was Joseph Smith? How do you describe his character and nature?
Who was Baha'ullah? How do you describe his character and nature?
I reject the claims of all the above "religious" personalities, and all the others besides. I'll stick with G-d, thank you very much.
Please re-read the post at the head of this thread. Its purpose is to defend Fundamentalist Protestants from the charge of bigotry, not to argue about J*sus.
You did, and it is very interesting.
I had the pig flu, and was pretty sick, as were the kids.
First time I recall sitting out Yom Kippur. We all just stayed home.
Thank you. My apologies for the double ping, but I thought I had forgotten you.
I had the pig flu, and was pretty sick, as were the kids.
Very sorry to hear it! Wishing all a refu'ah shelemah.
First time I recall sitting out Yom Kippur. We all just stayed home.
Sorry you missed the services. There's always next year (when hopefully Mashiach HaMelekh will be reigning!).
I read "the post at the head of this thread" very well thank you. In it you declare several purposes, one of them to "apprise [Christians] of their true duties to G-d and be liberated from all false and erroneous religious doctrines."
By announcing that as one of your purposes I am quite confident that anyone posting to this thread is free to discuss Jesus Christ and to expect answers to any and all questions about the faiths you have interwoven.
Please re-read the post at the head of this thread. Its purpose is to defend Fundamentalist Protestants from the charge of bigotry, not to argue about J*sus.
I read "the post at the head of this thread" very well thank you.
You're welcome!
So what is to be done? Why, the answer is simple: convert them.
No, not to Judaism, but to the Noachide Laws, the true and only G-d-authorized religion for all non-Jewish humanity.
...
If Jews want a tolerant world, Jews should drop Monotheism at once and become crusaders for the restoration of ancient polytheism.
What are you saying? Should Jews advise the rest of humanity to the Noachide Laws and to polytheism?
As I told you before, use www.openoffice.org for superior formatting and crash resistance.
Hello Religion Moderator -
Am I allowed to use ...
1) Torah
2) Old Testament (Soncino Tanakh)
3) Talmud
... to establish that the Messiah of Judaism ...
1) Is God
2) Came in the 1st century
Thank you,
This Religion Forum thread is labeled “ecumenical” so yes, you can make your case using any or all of those sources as long as you are not being antagonistic.
>but I simply don't want the thread derailed by post after >post after post after post quoting the "new testament" to >"prove" this or that and to proselytize.
Hello ZC. I hope you have been well.
Back in your thread titled "A Noachide's response to chr*stianity (Vanity)" I answered your post #39 systematically, point by point, in post #40 using only ...
1) Torah
2) Old Testament (Soncino Edition translated by Jews for Jews)
3) Talmud
... and I DID NOT get a systematic, point-by-point response from you.
Thus, I don't understand how it is that you state that Christians somehow need to retreat to the New Testament and Christian sources to prove the deity and messiahship of Jesus Christ.
Put another way, I agreed to your terms of sticking to Jewish sources only, and you still didn't give a full, point-by-point reply, as I did for you.
Lastly, you attempted to impugn my character in your post #41 by suggesting that I lied about my Jewish heritage and blood. Being also made in the image of the Eternal, you are better than that.
“Please do not highjack this thread, whose purpose is explaining that Fundamentalist Protestants are [not] “haters” and bigots.” Thank you. :-)”I do hope that my superscript edit (as denoted by brackets) of the above quote from your post 23, represents what you intended to write.
“There are two Genesis stories. In neither one was Eve forbidden to eat of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge.
AND YET, Christianity blames women for the sins of the world.”
“Wrong, as your statement requires negating that Adam was the head of the wife, and thus the wife was commanded through him not to eat of the forbidden fruit.”
I do not accept that Adam was the head of the wife. They were created as equal. Male and female created he Them. And they had no names. THAT came later too.
Adama is Latin. I doubt they spoke Latin when they first began the Oral Tradition of the Bible.
1st Genesis story-Genesis 1
26
And G-d said: ‘Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.’
27
And G-d created man in His own image, in the image of G-d created He him; male and female created He them.
28
And G-d blessed them; and G-d said unto them: ‘Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that creepeth upon the earth.’
29
And G-d said: ‘Behold, I have given you every herb yielding seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed—to you it shall be for food;
30
and to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is a living soul, I have given every green herb for food.’ And it was so.
31
And G-d saw every thing that He had made, and, behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.
*************************************************************
NO Tree of Life, NO Tree of Knowledge, NO admonition not to eat of ANY tree, just the opposite:
And G-d said: ‘Behold, I have given you every herb yielding seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed—to you it shall be for food;
**************************************************************
SECOND Genesis Story-Genesis 2
16
And HaShem G-d commanded the man, saying: ‘Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat;
17
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.’
18
And HaShem G-d said: ‘It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a help meet for him.’
Genesis 3
1
Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which HaShem G-d had made. And he said unto the woman: ‘Yea, hath G-d said: Ye shall not eat of any tree of the garden?’
*********************************************************
As you can see, G-d spoke ONLY to Adam. Eve had not yet been created, and she was NOT Adam’s servant, she was his helpmeet.
22
And HaShem G-d said: ‘Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.’
23
Therefore HaShem G-d sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24
So He drove out the man; and He placed at the east of the garden of Eden the cherubim, and the flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way to the tree of life.
**********************************************************
So WHY would it have been perfectly fine to eat of the Tree of Life WITHOUT knowledge, but not good WITH knowledge?
Because the purpose of a male and female PAIR is to procreate as per Genesis 1. Had they eaten of the Tree of Life, there would have been no need to procreate, and the command to be fruitful and multiply would have had no meaning whatsoever.
You assume Adam had knowledge. So too does a bird. But it isn’t the kind of knowledge that can be learned. THAT innate knowledge is called instinct, and G-d created Man to live by his wits AND his instincts.
A bird could never have invented the wheel, let alone have dominion over the other beasts of the earth.
Whoever added the second story felt the need to explain aging and death, why men did not live forever since man was created in G-d’s image, and they believed the only way it could be explained was that somehow, G-d had been disobeyed. It explained why there was pain associated with childbirth and why man was not immortal as G-d surely is. Otherwise, the literal “created in the Image of G-d” could not explain why man’s flesh dies.
At any rate, in neither story was the woman commanded by G-d not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge because in the first, there wasn’t any, and in the second, Eve had not yet been created.
I had to go and read through the posts which you referenced. They are very long and very full of errors on both your parts.
However, it is 5:40 AM and I need to rest and rest my eyes which are glazed over from reading all this.
If you truly want a response, I will be glad to take it point by point as you suggest, but it will take some time.
I appreciate the ping. As long as we stay factual, I will participate.
So as to give you an idea of what my refutations will be based on, please understand that the Hebrew Scriptures were translated by Egyptians into Greek and had to be salvaged.
The NEW Jewish Bible “written by Jews FOR Jews” is trash as far as I am concerned. It is a corrupt modernization which I do not accept.
Again, thank you for asking me to this thread. I will certainly enjoy the debate.
Don't tell me I forgot to type "not!" Oy!
As to my "impugning" your character, I asked if you were really Jewish because some people misrepresent themselves, and some do. You certainly misdated the Babylonian captivity.
As I have said many times, Judaism has nothing to prove. The burden of proof lies entirely with the new religion, chr*stianity. Unless and until it proves itself absolutely, the assumption of truth lies with the older religion, Judaism.
I do not need to provide a point-by-point refutation. The Torah is supreme and the Torah does not authorize or even provide for such a religion as chr*stianity. Its commandments are stated to be eternal many times, and the only reason the Prophets we have today are in the Hebrew Bible at all is because they were canonized by the Men of the Great Assembly, which means that they were understood from the beginning to be in submission to the Torah. 'Nuff said.
Your invoking RaMBa"M and the Talmud overlooks the fact that both these sources, which you claim have a view of Mashiach in harmony with chr*stianity, rejected that religion. If chr*stianity were as harmonious with their understanding as you say it is, then they would have certainly endorsed that religion, but they did not.
Now please read my vanity post at the head of this thread. I think it describes your beliefs (as stated on your FR home page) very accurately.
bump
Point by point it is.
To reply to you both in one post:
1) MestaMachine: IF you and/or Zionist Conspirator continue to post on FR, AND respond to well meaning Christians with responses that denigrate the New Testament against Torah principles, AND then offer the excuse that only Torah is valid against the teachings of Torah, AND neither of you finish the discussion started by ZC in the thread I linked to, THEN I will continue to challenge you with Torah, Talmud, and Tanach to the effect that Messiah came in the 1st century.
2) MestaMachine: “If we stay factual”. Sure. I appreciate that the Torah is the word of God, and so long as we obey Torah principles in the discussion, I am OK. I trust that both of you will understand the difference between “staying factual” and a difference of opinion regarding the conclusion drawn from systematic reasoning given a body of evidence with Torah principles as a guide. “The Law of the Lord is perfect”.
3) MestaMachine: Regarding the Soncino Tanach (Old Testament) which I used being corrupt, and not the Tanach of choice today by the Orthodox Jewish community: Sure man. You point me to the definitive, sanctioned, recognized, approved English translation used by Orthodox Jews the world over, and I will acquire a copy, and use that going forward. No problem. I don’t mind saying that I am not Hebrew fluent, but I do have access to Christians (Gentile and Jewish) who are, so it might take some time for me to get back to you from time to time, but get back to you I will.
4) MestaMachine: You want to attack the authority of the Septuagint? Let’s hear it.
5) MestaMachine and Zionist Conspirator: One of you are willing to finish the discussion started by ZC and myself? I welcome it. Every time my faith is challenged, it is stronger at the end of the challenge. I can only profit from a discussion with both or one of you, and I am happy to invest my time in this way.
6) ZC: You did not address my Hebraic, Torah reasoning in the claims I made. The brief justification you make in post #95 do not begin to address the points I made. You are handwaving, and hoping nobody notices. I notice, and so does HaShem. You are definitely better than this. You can meet me point by point. I welcome this, and encourage you man!
7) Have a great day gentlemen.
You then invoked the criteria for a true prophet as enumerated in the Torah. Yet you continue to ignore the case described in Deuteronomy 13 of the false prophet who makes predictions which come true but which are to be ignored because they are merely a test from G-d to see if the hearers of such prophecies (and witnesses of such fulfillments) really will stay with the Torah rather than going to something new.
Then you invoked RaMBa"M as a wintess for chr*stianity even though he rejected it.
I begin to wonder why you are do absolutely fixated on justifying your conversion to chr*stianity. The only reason I can figure is guilt.
At any rate I am satisfied with my own position and stand by it. So long as the Torah does not authorize chr*stianity, chr*stianity's claims fail the test.
I don't think MestaMachine is coming from the same place I am so I cannot answer for him/her.
Chr*stianity is based on the "new testament" just as mormonism is based on the "book of mormon." IF those revelations are true, then naturally their religions are as well. But to claim that either is alluded to in the Torah or Hebrew Bible is simply ludicrous.
Pinging kosta to this old debate for his interest.
“1) MestaMachine: IF you and/or Zionist Conspirator continue to post on FR, AND respond to well meaning Christians with responses that denigrate the New Testament against Torah principles, AND then offer the excuse that only Torah is valid against the teachings of Torah, AND neither of you finish the discussion started by ZC in the thread I linked to, THEN I will continue to challenge you with Torah, Talmud, and Tanach to the effect that Messiah came in the 1st century.”
First of all, I was not on the other thread you are referring to. I read what you pointed to until my eyes glazed over. a ONE post response would be almost impossible.
I do not know Zionist Conspirator and was not pinged to this thread by her and do not agree with her either.
You misunderstand my response. I asked you if you seriously wanted to pursue this discussion, but received no reply.
I posited that the translation of the Old Testament in common use is mistranslated in many ways.
I ALSO dispute common interpretations of Torah Principals by overeducated psychologists.
I also posit that every effort to concord the Old Testament with the New often requires the skills of a verbal contortionist and a misapplication of recorded history, and sometimes statements made up of whole cloth which are totally and completely irrelevant. There are others which seek to dismiss Old Testament history by replacing it with speculation. Still others which denigrate Old testament history when it doesn’t factually agree with profferred concordances.
I can give you many instances of this.
The reason I haven’t responded is because you did not alert me to your seriousness. It isn’t worth the time or the effort if you were not serious because I seek no conversions and am expressly forbidden to do so.
I disagree with ZC on a lot of things, but she is right about there being NO pointers to Christianity in Torah or in any translation of the Old Testament including the modern ones.
That said, I do not want to denigrate anyone’s faith except maybe islam which is abomination beyond abomination.
So by disputing you on facts, I want to make it perfectly clear that I am NOT questioning your FAITH. Only your facts.
I would ask you to be very specific and take it a point at a time, ask me the question, and I will answer.
What you have asked for a response to requires a volume or two and many hours of time.
So I ask you, how important is this to you if the point is you trying to convince me I am wrong, and I respond with how you are wrong? Is it going to change your life? Because these are lifechanging beliefs and not to be taken lightly.
I am very secure in my skin and with my faith. Why do you challenge it? Would you accept proof as proof? Would you admit being wrong if I show you where and why you are wrong? Is there any REAL value to challenging my faith except for you to try and convert me, which is simply not going to happen?
I don’t know you. Please tell me what the point of this is. If it is educational debate, fine.
State your case on THIS thread ONE point at a time. I live my faith. I don’t write about it 24/7. There are things going on in this world that require my presence much more than arguing religious issues which are not relevant to anyone but you and me.
ONE point. Fire away.
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