Posted on 07/09/2009 11:42:11 AM PDT by markomalley
One point to make for you, though, is paragraph 67 (the controversial one).
The Latin (authoritative) version is not online yet. But there is a huge difference between both the Italian and German versions and the English version.
The Italian version says: 67. Di fronte all'inarrestabile crescita dell'interdipendenza mondiale, è fortemente sentita, anche in presenza di una recessione altrettanto mondiale, l'urgenza della riforma sia dell'Organizzazione delle Nazioni Unite che dell'architettura economica e finanziaria internazionale, affinché si possa dare reale concretezza al concetto di famiglia di Nazioni.
Translation: Faced with the unstoppable growth of global interdependence, it is strongly felt, even in the presence of a global recession, the urgency of reform in the Organization of the United Nations as well as the international economic and financial architecture, so that we can give real substance to the concept of family of nations.
The German says, Gegenüber der unaufhaltsamen Zunahme weltweiter gegenseitiger Abhängigkeit wird gerade auch bei einer ebenso weltweit anzutreffenden Rezession stark die Dringlichkeit einer Reform sowohl der Organisation der Vereinten Nationen als auch der internationalen Wirtschafts- und Finanzgestaltung empfunden, damit dem Konzept einer Familie der Nationen reale und konkrete Form gegeben werden kann.
Translation: In the face of the inexorable rise of global interdependence there is an urgency felt, even with an equally strong global recession, for the reform of both the Organization of the United Nations and the international economic and financial structures, so the concept of a family of nations can be given a real and concrete form.
The English translation online says, In the face of the unrelenting growth of global interdependence, there is a strongly felt need, even in the midst of a global recession, for a reform of the United Nations Organization, and likewise of economic institutions and international finance, so that the concept of the family of nations can acquire real teeth.
Notice the differences in the bolded text:
- Italian: so that we can give real substance to the concept of family of nations
- German: so the concept of a family of nations can be given a real and concrete form
- English: so that the concept of the family of nations can acquire real teeth
"Give real substance to the concept of the family" means about the same thing as "concept of a family of nations can be given a real and concrete form." But "Acquire real teeth" has an utterly different meaning (at least to English speakers "real teeth" implies authority -- "muscle", while "give real substance" or "give real form" implies a structure, how something is organized)
My question is, why would they use an idiomatic expression in their English translation but not in their German or Italian translations?
Which is right? We'll have to wait until the Vatican posts the Latin version.
I would consider the Italian text to be as good an indicator or better than the eventual Latin, since it probably was composed in German or Italian and the Italian text was probably the one that was labored over most carefully as it was revised. The Latin version will be authoritative when it is released but the fact that it is not yet released means that it will be an official translation, probably from the Italian, not from the German. I doubt that even the German version available now represents the pope’s own words—it was probably made from the Italian because Italian is the lingua franca that had to have been used on a document like this that underwent, by all accounts, a long series of discussions and revisions. The pope is absolutely fluent in Italian and my guess is that he either wrote it orginally in Italian or that very early on a German original was translated into a workin Italian base document.
Many encyclicals don’t even have their first draft directly from the pope’s own hand—often someone else drafts a working first draft to get things started.
That may not be the case here. Benedict may well have written a first draft and, if so, it might have been in German, but might just as well have been in Italian. He’s certainly capable of having written a first draft in Latin, but I very, very seriously doubt that that’s what happened.
So the Latin text, when released, will be helpful for comparison purposes, but it will represent a staffer’s translation from the Italian. Whether Benedict himself will have compared this official Latin translation, when it is published, with what he approved on June 29 in Italian, I don’t know. But even if he did, the Italian version remains the starting point for interpretation. The Latin authoritative but will necessarily be interpreted as to it’s meaning. Knowing that the Latin was not the earliest version means that, even though it is official, in interpreting it the Italian will be central.
I wondered the same thing: the “teeth” idiom is not in line with the Pope’s elegant and precise style. Thank’s for noticing.
As far as your specific question is concerned, I would say that the English translation’s use of “real teeth” is just an unfortunate choice by the translators. The idea in the other two languages is of actual, concrete form. The Italian is more concrete than the German but the English is too loose. But I wouldn’t place much weight on it—just an infelicitous translating choice in English. The Latin version probably won’t resolve anything. I’d just take the German and Italian together as pointing toward “concrete form,” which is probably a weaker way of putting it than “real teeth.” In some ways, I could wish that the Italian had had something closer to an expression like “real teeth” at this spot. But it didn’t and therefore it should not have been translated as “real teeth.”
I have to retract the claim that the Italian is more concrete than the German. They are identical. I was working from memory having read both cursorily. The German is an exact translation of the Italian. The English is not.
“But “Acquire real teeth” has an utterly different meaning (at least to English speakers “real teeth” implies authority — “muscle”, while “give real substance” or “give real form” implies a structure, how something is organized)”
It depends on how the Italian means “form”—for someone as philosophically as inclined as Benedict is, he might mean by “form” something more than merely structure. Then again, since this was heavily revised by advisors, it may be more bland, along the lines you describe. But I doubt that the Latin will help here. I agree that “acquire real teeth” does imply enforcement and authority and in that sense the English translation is seriously flawed.
I don't speak Italian but see concretezza
Italian for "substance" is sostanza
The difference between Italian and German versions is illusory.
Actually, the Italian does not use “form” at all, only the German does. The Italian merely speaks of a concretization of the concept. The German turns this into “concrete form.”
It would have been better to use a verb: “so that the concept of a family of nations might be really concretized”
in both the German and the English, though this is hard to do in German—the verbs available tend to be abstractifying Latinizations. “Konkretiert” can, I suppose, be used, and perhaps it would be just odd enough to make the point.
You asked,
Well, the key point is that “real teeth” is clearly a mistranslation. (And considering how egregious a mistranslation it is, it is likely an intentional mistranslation). The question is, “why?”
I’ve done a lot of translating. It’s not necessarily intentional. Sometimes translators just goof up. Sometimes they are too full of themselves and think they know better than the original, think they can improve it. I imagine the translators thought “real teeth” was an improvement because it’s, well, “more concrete.” They may just have not thought far enough to realize that, while it is “more concrete,” it also carries the elements of enforcement that you point out.
It could be an unintended but unwise error. It ought to be modified in the touched up translations that often are issued.
But I wouldn’t make too big a deal of this. It’s damn hard to translate under pressure and get every detail right. I don’t see a huge conspiracy behind this, just a mistake, one that ought to be remedied rather than merely ignored.
You are right to point it out but don’t go too far with it.
"...in order to give a concrete reality to the concept of the family of nations..."
It won't, as people will use this toward their own ends. You're right as far as that goes.
However, for those of us who want to know what is really said, the Latin version is the authoritative version of any document (the Latin version is the one published in the Acte Apostolicae Sedis), so if there are references to teeth in Latin, then it's teeth...if not, then the English is a bad translation that supports a certain agenda (whether intentionally done by a staffer or merely accidental) and should be suppressed.
**Which is right? We’ll have to wait until the Vatican posts the Latin version.**
Others are waiting for this too.
Excellent point. It certainly was what Reuters and AP leftist media glommed onto.
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Sorry, Mark,
Those differences do not diminish my points in the least.
I wish something did.
They don’t.
The net bottom line is ESSENTIALLY the same.
Euphemisms are still euphemisms.
The global family of nations is merely another name for collective global government.
The 10 regions have already been articulated quite in keeping with Biblical prophecy.
There will be NO retreat from those goals between now and Armageddon.
Papal pontifications of the sort I’ve read regarding this document can ONLY facilitate such a rush toward hell on earth.
Regardless of the word dicing and slicing, the Pope also quite disturbingly, comes across as writing out of both sides of his fingers.
And to do so about such an important issue is more than a little disturbing.
The bottom line still is . . .
—The globalist oligarchy probably cares about what the Pope says only in as much as it makes their goals easier and faster or harder and slower.
—To have him even SOUND LIKE—to whatever degree—that he is encouraging any move at all even TOWARD global government must leave them gleeful.
—Beyond that, the globalists’ boss, satan, must be ecstatic realizing that it will be all the easier seducing more Roman Catholics into his globalist snares with such phrasing from the Pope.
That is more than a little curious.
Mark,
I have read absolutely no RC on any of the threads even attempt a logical reply to my points.
I don’t think there is one. That may be why.
Yet, it is a bit sad that, seemingly, the only replies are side-stepping invective.
BLESSED BE THE NAME,
THE WORD,
THE WAYS,
THE PLANS,
THE KINGDOM OF OUR GOD AND KING.
INDEED. MARANATHA!
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