Posted on 09/17/2008 10:11:28 AM PDT by NYer
According to TwinCities.com,
After decades of honing his musical skills, Charles Philyaw landed his dream job in 2004 as the full-time director of music liturgy at St. Andrew Catholic Church in Verona.Far from attempting to obfuscate the issue, the issue was made plain.
The church, with 1,643 adult members, was more than just a place to work for Philyaw. He and his partner, James Mulder-Philyaw, joined the parish and participated fully in the religious community.
Then in June, it all collapsed. Philyaw said he was told by the parish priest, the Rev. Dave Timmerman, that he would no longer be retained because he was living an openly gay life. He was given two weeks' notice.
"Absolutely, Chuck lost his job because he's openly gay," said Jo Ellen Kilkenny, one of the five whose inquiries triggered Philyaw's dismissal.I must tell you that this is a very well done article as it states plainly the Church's side of the issue with quotes like these:
She calls him a "wonderful music director" and said she feels horrible that he lost his livelihood, yet it became indefensible for him to be in a highly visible role as an active homosexual, she said.
"We are all sinners, but when you hold a leadership position, you're held to a higher standard than people in the pews," she said.
Brent King, spokesman for the Madison Catholic Diocese, said Bishop Morlino does not comment on personnel issues. But the diocese made available the Rev. Monsignor James Bartylla, director of vocations, who is helping to coordinate locally a program called Courage, a national Catholic initiative that counsels people with same-sex attraction.In this case, the article doesn't say if any lawsuits are pending but sexual orientation is becoming a constant addition to anti-discrimination statutes across the country. How long until churches lose the right to discriminate at all? I think we're a bit of a way off from the government stepping in and forcing women priests or gay priests on us but couldn't you see it argued that when an employee's main duties are not necessarily ecclesiastical or ministerial that the Church will no longer be able to say who it hires and fires. The government could just say, "oh he's just the musical director" or "Oh he's just a teacher."
While same-sex attraction is considered a disorder by the Catholic Church, it is not a sin in and of itself, Bartylla said. "It is acting on the attraction that makes it a sinful act, a grave depravity," he said.
People with same-sex attraction must control their desires and live chaste lives, he said. If they do so, they can participate fully in church life, including in leadership positions, he said.
Because of this distinction between same-sex attraction and acting on it, it would be a mistake to say the Catholic Church dismisses anyone from employment simply for their sexual orientation, King said.
As for parishioners who are sexually active homosexuals, Bartylla said the church would welcome them, then "begin dealing immediately" with the issue. "We'd encourage them and challenge them to come into conformity with church teaching, the same as with any parishioner dealing with sin."
Bishop Morlino has been sweeping up the diocese, ever since his arrival a short time ago.
God Bless him. He will not lead his sheep astray. Brave man, Christ centered. Confident.
A swinger or an adulterer who flaunted it would be fired as well.
I guess they need better lobbying groups so they can stop getting negative press.
I picked up on the words that he was “openly gay.” I am assuming that if he were more discreet, he would still have his job. Seems like a fair compromise to me.
>>Philyaw said he believes he was born gay and that God led him to the Catholic Church.<<
All of us are born as little animals who will act on impulse. We overcome that.
Good. More please. Faster.
The same government that cannot spread Christianity cannot make it criminal to say someone is a sinner.
Meanwhile Islamic imperialism in the West goes unchecked.
Since it was his “dream job” yet he seems to pick and choose what church teachings he follows, I have to wonder if this was a setup case like Lawrence v. Texas was when the lover of one man called the police to report a disturbance between 2 men. Some writers originally speculated that the caller was a hateful homophobe; he was another gay man who had an assault charge filed against one of the other men and then was murdered and that case still has not been solved.
From the get go those men then said that they would challenge the state law. What liberal legislators are afraid to overturn, the courts are quite willing to.
Keep it quiet, keep your job. The affliction is not the problem, the behavior is!
Scriptures consider "same-sex attraction" a sin, and acting on the wicked thoughts as a sin as well.
Yeah, it seems to me, if my “dream job” was to be choir director in a Catholic Church that I would go to great extremes to ensure that I could keep it discrete. Heck, I might even consider living a celebate life.
I’ve worked with homosexuals in the private sector who kept their sexuality a secret for professional and personal reason.
My guess is this guy was totally out of the closet, flaunting his situation and daring the administrators to discipline or fire him for his “lifestyle”.
Now he no longer has his “dream job” ~ like duh!
Sung Prayer is a Liturgical Ministry in the Catholic Church.
I believe he was stating that it is not a sin to be tempted but acting upon those temptations is a sin.
Who would want to direct a gay choir?
“Rule One...
I don't really agree. Our church went through almost the exact same thing some years ago. The choir director turned out to be gay. But he was a "down-low" brother; ie, he was a married man who liked other men. I think that a person is gay, let them state and such openly and then maybe society can deal with it. If they keep it "discreet", then it causes more damage later on when (as in the d/l case) families get broken up, wives are devastated, etc.
Can you point me to the scripture(s) you are refering to here?
We know temptation itself is not sin. Scripture says that Jesus was tempted in all ways as we are but did not sin.
Perhaps you are refering to the 'entertaining of thoughts' or something like that, which would go beyond being tempted.
There are straight choir directors?
/long-time singer
That's fine as long as they either:
Remain celibate, or
Don't expect to hold leadership positions in a church or other religious organization.
sadly, there are far too many gay choir directors.
perhaps under affirmative action they would have to hire other than a gay choir director ...
.
perhaps under affirmative action they would have to hire other than a gay choir director ...
.
“...no poofters!”
Rule 2: No member of the faculty is to maltreat the “Abos” in any way whatsoever—if there’s anyone watching.
Rule 3: No Poofters.
Rule 4: I don’t want to catch anyone not drinking in their room after lights out.
Rule 5: No Poofters.
Rule 6: There is no... rule six.
Rule 7: No Poofters.
It isn't a sin because it isn't a willfully chosen act, or even necessarily a willfully chosen thought.
It's a proclivity toward a particular sin. Kleptomania is a proclivity toward a particular sin (theft). It isn't a sin, either. Theft is a sin.
That's exactly what I am referring to.
Whether heterosexual or homosexual, it's a sin.
Matthew 5:27,28 -
"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
Failing to call it sin results in the true problem not being addressed. It's a spiritual issue, and it is manifested through our thoughts and actions.
"For as he thinks within himself, so he is." - Proverbs 23:7
Why or why not?
Yes ... I remember that case and was wondering the same thing. Were this to have happened in Canada, the pastor would have been jailed. Canada has implemented strict anti-descrimination laws against gays. How long before the US courts follow suit.
Encouraging sin is not what Christ taught other. Some of these Catholics aren't.
other = either
seems the parents would be keeping their children away.
Lust is no different whether for the opposite or same sex attraction. The consequence of unnatural disordered attractions are much higher. The injured victim is less likely to approach the Man-God, Jesus, or His representative, priests, for spiritual healing. This is what Satan has in mind by inflicting the violence and intimidation of homosexual lust. It tears down the natural order of concupiscence and betrays the trust for mastering our desires.
Crackup in aisle 19.
I, for one.
There’s a reason for that.
The pay is generally dreadful.
Wanna raise 6 kids on no income?
SOME people don’t have to worry about wife/chilluns...
“Entertaining” impure thoughts (remember THAT adjective?) is NOT the same as those thoughts entering one’s mind. The latter is temptation; the former is sin.
I think you can understand the difference.
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Obama Says A Baby Is A Punishment
Obama: “If they make a mistake, I don’t want them punished with a baby.”
Barney Frank.
> People with same-sex attraction must control their desires and live chaste lives, he said. If they do so, they can participate fully in church life, including in leadership positions, he said.
I have heard it speculated that this may well have been St Paul’s infirmity, which if true might explain his life of celebacy. It also would cast deeper insight into his writings in Romans 7.
That was my first thought, too. The sad thing is that the gays have a tendency to focus on the details that make spending the $$ on music really worthwhile. Not that others don't, but I worked for one gay director who insisted on text painting absolutely everything and it made a difference.
Good thing he wasn’t Obama’s choir director, he would have been killed.
Really! Got a link to your source? Would this also apply to St. Matthew?
"And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life."
Matthew 19:29
How do you explain the celibacy of Jesus?
> Really! Got a link to your source?
Sorry I don’t — it came up in a Bible class I attended once, where homosexuality and the Bible were being discussed.
(Inconveniently, not everything in this world can be found on the Internet...)
> Would this also apply to St. Matthew?
St. Matthew wasn’t discussed at that class.
> How do you explain the celibacy of Jesus?
I don’t. I accept it as a matter of Faith — tho’ interestingly others haven’t.
Speaking personally, I have no opinion on whether St. Paul was/was not a homosexualist: we aren’t told definitively one way or the other. I thought it an interesting theory which is not without merit, but equally has insufficient hard facts behind it to either prove or disprove.
It certainly provides a handy explanation for that passage in Romans.
Such theories are formulated by those who do not accept celibacy as a valid lifestyle. It lends no credence to the historical figure of St. Paul; if anything, it is intended to demean him.
Many people lead very active and fruitful lives in the celibate state. God did not intend for everyone to marry.
Well, they aren’t the only ones, but yah, in general, they are much more sensitive to the actual music.
OTOH, one of the best choral directors in Milwaukee is gay; nice guy, and I respect him for his apparent celibacy. VERY talented.
But he is not as ‘text-painting’ aware as you might expect. I think he’s happy to get a good choral tone.
Agreed, but the theory (underline and bold “theory”) is interesting in light of the cited passage.
Doesn’t detract from St Paul at all—if anything, it underscores the point you made: “Many people lead very active and fruitful lives in the celibate state”
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