Posted on 06/17/2008 7:55:24 AM PDT by NYer
When I was in law school, I had a classmate named Barry (not his real name). At the time, I was not practicing the faith and by no means was a paragon of virtuous living. Despite my own low standards, I thought Barry’s carousing lifestyle crossed the bounds of propriety. He even confided to me that while he was home one weekend he made his girlfriend procure an abortion, because he was not willing to take responsibility for his actions.
One day, months later, Barry out of the blue told me, “It’s time for a revival.” It was only then that I learned that he was a part-time preacher who from time to time would go barnstorming through Missouri and Arkansas, inviting people to become “saved.”
I was shocked. I admitted that I had no room to talk, since in my estimation I was no longer a Catholic or even a Christian. Even so, the disparity between Barry’s faith and his ongoing debauchery confused and scandalized me. He eventually explained that I had to learn to separate faith from daily life. I told him–with less refinement and charity than I’d use today–what I thought of a religion I could test drive but not take home. My burning intuition was that a religion that did not affect who I was and how I lived was not worth my time.
An analogous situation arises today in the context of funerals. As many of us know, the dominant mindset is that the deceased is “in a better place,” and thus the funeral rite itself becomes nothing other than a mini-canonization.
Assuredly we entrust the deceased to the mercy of God, who alone judges hearts. We also must console those who are mourning, offering them solid grounds for hope that their departed loved one is indeed with the Lord. In this regard, it is entirely fitting to recall the good deeds and accomplishments of the deceased to buoy our hope in his or her resurrection.
Yet the current trend goes even further. Our contemporaries assume the deceased is in heaven, so the only real concern is helping friends and family cope with the temporal loss. This approach effectively does away with the need to pray and offer sacrifice for the deceased, which Scripture describes as a “very excellent and noble” practice (cf. 2 Mac. 12:43; Catechism, no. 1032). It also derails a teachable moment: The reality of death affords all of us the opportunity to consider our own mortality and thus seek to be in right relationship with God. An objective observer at many funerals today could easily conclude that it really doesn’t matter how one lives, because everyone’s eternal fate seems to be the same.
Both my encounter with Barry and the experience at many funerals today reflect the error of presumption, which takes many forms (cf. Catechism, no. 2092). One form of presumption is the timeless heresy of Pelagianism, which holds that happiness is attainable by merely human effort, without the necessity of grace. This is manifested today by those who place all their hope in technological progress. Another example of presumption, commonly seen at funerals, is the attitude that in the end God will forgive us irrespective of our cooperation with grace. Following this view, heaven is the inevitable and more or less universal sequel to this life.
Christian fundamentalism is yet another form of presumption. Granted, Barry’s case is an extreme example of the “once saved, always saved” mentality. Most Bible Christians would be aghast at Barry’s lifestyle. Further, they rightly affirm in the midst of our largely secular and indifferent society the centrality of our faith in Jesus Christ (cf. Acts 4:12; 1 Cor. 3:11). Even so, the necessity of a “born again” experience is often explained in a way that leaves no room for human freedom. Once “saved,” the individual can’t “lose” his salvation, even through mortal sin. (Click here for CUF’s FAITH FACT entitled “Persevering to the End: The Biblical Reality of Mortal Sin.”)
“When will I come to the end of my pilgrimage, and enter the presence of God?” This antiphon, taken from Monday Morning Prayer, Week II in the Liturgy of the Hours, summarizes the proper attitude of the Christian in this life. This attitude can be summed up in one word: hope.
Once Saved Always Saved?
• We must persevere "to the end" (Mt. 10:22; 24:13) "in the kindness of God" (Rom. 11:22) in order to reign with Christ (2 Tim. 2:12).
• Scripture mentions several cases of Christians who have fallen away through sin (e.g., 1 Tim. 5:8; Heb. 6:4-6; Jas. 5:19-20; 2 Pet. 2:20-21).
• Saint Paul, who had one of the most dramatic and profound conversions in 2,000 years of Christianity, writes, "I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified" (1 Cor. 9:27).
• Saint Paul further advises those who are already Christians to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil. 2:12).
• Christians are called to cultivate the theological virtue of hope, which is the confident expectation of divine blessing and eternal life with God (Catechism, no. 2090).
• Hope is not based on our own strength or ability to resist temptations, but on the mercy and goodness of God poured out upon us by the Holy Spirit (Catechism, no. 1817; cf. Rom. 5:5).
Here is the key clarification. "Assurance is of the essence of believing in Jesus for everlasting life. That is, as long as a person believes in Jesus for everlasting life, he knows he has everlasting life (John 5:24; 6:35, 47; 11:27; 1 John 5:9-13)."
In other words until a person believes that what he has received from the Lord Jesus is permanent and cannot be lost, whether he understands that as eternal life, salvation or living forever with Him in His kingdom, he is not yet born again. A person cannot believe in Christ alone for his eternal destiny and also believe that he can do something to keep it since he didn't earn it in the first place.
Let's say you are witnessing to someone and he indicates that he has come to faith in Christ as a result of what you said. To make sure he really got it, you ask him a diagnostic question: "What if you leave here and you fail to live your life for Christ; you don't join and attend a church; you don't read the bible; and instead you become an alcoholic and a womanizer and then next year you commit suicide? What would your eternal destiny be then?" If the person sad, "Oh well, then I'd go to hell," you would know that the person didn't understand. By his death on the cross the Lord Jesus took away the sins of the world (John 1:29; 1 John 2:2).
Sin is no longer an issue. Works is no longer the issue. Life and death is the issue. Once a person believes in Jesus for eternal life (John 3:16; 1Tim 1:16), they know they have eternal life.
They know falsely. It depends what one does with his belief (Matthew 25, Apoc. 22:12, Romans 2:6-9, 1 Cor. 3:9-17, James 2:17-26, 2 Peter 1:2-1).
Huh? Sin is very much an issue. Heb. 9:12 tells us that Christ's sacrifice secured our redemption, but redemption is not the same thing as salvation. We participate in and hope for salvation. Our hope in salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ to the end. But if we lose hope and fail to persevere, we can lose our salvation. Thus, by our own choosing (not by God's doing), salvation is not a certainty.
I understand that they have pride in their particular belief system, but they need to remember that Jesus looked upon pride as a sin as it produces a persecuting and contentious spirit, just like what we are seeing coming out of the Catholics lately. Geez..why can't we all take charge of our own individual souls (Catholics can hand theirs over to the Pope if they choose), just agree to disagree and let God sort it out in the end?
True believers hang in there. Period. No exceptions.
As an example, Do YOU intend to stop believing?
For this Christ left us with the Sacrament of Penance (John 20:22).
That is a rather nebulous statement; can you be more specific by citing an example of Catholic tradition?
Even true believers can stumble and fall, like Judas. As Paul reminds us in Romans 5:2, we rejoice in the "hope" (not the presumptuous certainty) of sharing the glory of God. If salvation is absolutely assured after accepting Jesus as Savior, why would Paul hope?
1 John 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. 7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
What Divides Catholics and Protestants?
There are many differences in the belief systems, some on the Catholic side are not considered Biblical by non-Catholics, myself included. However, lest I be accused of Catholic bashing, which is certainly not my intent, I agree with the following statement in the article...
Differences aside, Protestants and Catholics do share several core beliefs including the Trinity, the deity of Jesus, and the fact that he was sinless, that he died on the cross for man’s sin and rose from the dead and ascended to heaven.In light of that, I just don't understand the recent vitriol coming from the Catholic side of the fence, it seems to be increasing.
I have taken charge of my own soul and whether or not I am saved isn't up to interpretation by the Catholic authorities or any other Church for that matter. I have a personal relationship between myself and Jesus Christ and no one, especially a mere mortal (of which the Pope is included), can tell me that won't get me to my heavenly reward.
Anyone up for a round of Kumbaya? ; )
Perseverence = saying the Rosary 15 minutes a day...
...What a wonderful consolation to know that we can be assured of salvation by giving just fifteen minutes a day to praying the Rosary....
Are you referring to a specific verse? What document are you quoting from?
The is the first general epistle of St John.
Of course, -- but they do so not merely because they have an intellectual assent to the Gospel but because having believed in the Gospel, they also make a conscious free-will effort to obey it in their works, and seek absolution from the Church when they fall. We are not saved by faith alone, the Holy Scripture teaches.
That’s your idea of the process. The point is that they come out the other end having persevered.
If we had a continuum that at one end says 100% God and the other end says 0% God, then you have them on the continuum somewhere in the middle.
I’d have them closer to the God end. But that’s just us talking process. Some have it 100% God and 0% human.
The bottom line remains that they come out the other end on the good side.
The Scripture wouldn’t give us lesson after lesson of forgiveness of sin and perseverance if nothing were required of us but to say “Lord, Lord” once, so these 0% percenters haven’t read the Scripture very closely, if at all.
Just because a person believes in imputation does not mean they don’t also believe in obedience.
They are not mutually exclusive concepts.
The issue here is necessity of good works alongside faith, and, of course, the necessity of prayer for the dead. Imputed righteousness vs infused righteousness is a theoretical debate, and not directly pertinent here. It is true that I know of no Protestant that says we should do bad works, so so long as the sin of presumption is avoided, good works are preached, and the dead are prayed for, we are on the same page, more or less.
However, once prayer for the dead is discarded, salvation of souls is very seriously at stake. The issue ceases to be theoretical.
We talk about works because that faith that Christ is referring to in your quotes is dead without them (James 2).
I don’t want to be antagonistic. I’ll try to word it differently from now on.
“We are not saved by faith alone, the Holy Scripture teaches”
Really? Not my Bible. No amount of works can save you it is through belief in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and HIS gift of Grace by that belief that saves you. Works are done in addition to as you are saved you strive to be more Christ-like.
You are Protestant? You don't have the full Bible. Look in James 2, toward the end of the chapter.
Ahh I smell whiffs of primacy... My KJV does nicely thank you.
"Subsistence" is the new, politically correct, term. Christ's Church Subsists in the Catholic Church.
So you got the Letter of James in "KJV"? Gospel of Matthew, too? Letter to Romans?
From my vantage point, the discussion is all about imputation. I know that others disagree. (Otherwise we wouldn’t be having this discussion :>)
The bottom line, however, remains: have they or have they not persevered.
What are ways to persevere:
1. Have you sin not counted against you, so that you have a judicial righteousness and not a righteousness of your own.
2. Live a life with zero sin, so that no sin can be held against you.
3. Life a life which includes sin, but balance that sin by a more weighty portion of righteous acts that cancels out the sin.
4. Combinations of the above
As David says, “Ps 32:2 - Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord does not count against him and in whose spirit is no deceit.”
2 Grace to you and peace be accomplished in the knowledge of God and of Christ Jesus our Lord: 3 As all things of his divine power which appertain to life and godliness, are given us, through the knowledge of him who hath called us by his own proper glory and virtue. 4 By whom he hath given us most great and precious promises: that by these you may be made partakers of the divine nature: flying the corruption of that concupiscence which is in the world. 5 And you, employing all care, minister in your faith, virtue; and in virtue, knowledge; 6 And in knowledge, abstinence; and in abstinence, patience; and in patience, godliness; 7 And in godliness, love of brotherhood; and in love of brotherhood, charity. 8 For if these things be with you and abound, they will make you to be neither empty nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he that hath not these things with him, is blind, and groping, having forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10 Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time.(2 Peter 1)
Colossians Chapter 1 has the same idea.
That sounds like 3 to me...a mixture of sin and righteousness.
What cancels out the sin?
The sin already committed is absolved and the future sin is gradually conquered through unfused grace.
The reason I objected to (3) is because the way you put it is works salvation: a sin is canceled by good works. The sin is conquered — not merely committed and canceled — by man’s acceptance of sanctifying grace. But sin is certainly something that coexists with righteousness in a baptized person, so to that extent (3) is not incorrect.
Astounding, isn't it?
When Protestants have confidence in their salvation by God's grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, Catholics charge us with "the sin of presumption," and we're anathematized and damned to hell.
Yet when Catholics say the rosary for 15 minutes a day, they can be "assured of their salvation."
My husband says he fled the RCC of his childhood when he was around 18 and realized very little of what Rome taught was consistent with much of anything, not even itself.
That is the blessing of being, and, especially, remaining, Catholic.
Good many are going to get the “I don’t know you” response and be terribly shocked.
Feel the love.
So you don't see anything peculiar with believing you can be "assured of your salvation" if you recite the rosary for 15 minutes every day, yet you cannot be "assured of your salvation" by the fact that you possess faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior?
Ludicrous and sad.
Bad theology, totally warped, but that is what they thought.
Same with the guy in the article.
Faith is more than just an intellectual pronouncement. It means that you Love God with all your heart, soul, and mind. If you say you have faith, yet live your life in a manner such as described in the article, do you really have it? Few pastors or priests would say yes (and none that I know). Most of the hyper Calvinists (which is indeed a straw man), would agree. You can play Christian all you want, but that doesn't mean Jesus will claim you in the end.
If you love God, truly love Him, you will try to do his will. The great tragedy of the Fall is that we can never completely do His will on earth. For we all sin, we all fall short. We are like little kids trying to help they Dad with something. We don't really have the ability to do it at times.
But that is where Christ comes in. If we repent of our sins, we are forgiven. And this is not just a mumbled “sorry” as we swing to our next sin, but we are supposed to try to turn our lives more to God.
That is what I have been taught. And that is why I try to do “good works”. Not because I think it will gain me points with God, for my debt to Him is such that Jesus had to die to repay it, but because I love Him. And that means I want to do His will.
Most Christians, Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist, whatever, will say similar things. Our job is to do His will, and to be thankful for forgiveness when we fail.
1 John 3:9 and the passages surrounding it refer to habitual sin. The Greek is properly understood to mean “continuing in sin.” Even protestant commentaries recognize this. For example:
Gray’s Home Bible Commentary says this about the passage in question.
“Others interpret the word “commit” in the sense of practice (compare Galatians 5:21), (Revised Version). It is one thing to fall temporarily into sin as a consequence of sudden temptation, and another thing to practice it, i.e., to live in continual transgression. This no regenerated man does. The teaching of this verse should be balanced with that of 1:8, where the apostle is speaking to the same persons as in the present instance.”
The cited verse [1:8] for balance says:
“If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”
Verse 9 goes on to say, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”
All of this is in keeping with Catholic teaching.
If we take 1 John 3 in an over literal sense we get big problems. Verse 6 “No one who remains in him sins; no one who sins has seen him or known him.” Does that mean everyone who is in Christ doesn’t sin any longer? No.
Verses 9-10 “No one who is begotten by God commits sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot sin because he is begotten by God. So...everyone who is of God doesn’t sin?
10 “In this way, the children of God and the children of the devil are made plain; no one who fails to act in righteousness belongs to God, nor anyone who does not love his brother.”
Notice in verse 10 it is those who “act in righteousness” that belong to God vs anyone “who does not love [act in righteousness] his brother.”
In verse 11-12 “For this is the message you have heard from the beginning: we should love one another,
12 unlike Cain who belonged to the evil one and slaughtered his brother.
Why did he slaughter him? Because his own works were evil, and those of his brother righteous. Cain as Able had the free choice of obedience vs grave sin (found in 1 John chapter 5). But notice Cain chose evil by his works and Able chose righteousness by his works. We also even after we have been given sanctifying grace, can choose by our works [actions or obedience] evil or love for baptism is our initial justification and salvation is a process.
“Salvation has many components:
1. saved by grace – Rom. 3:23,24; Titus 2:11; Eph 2:5,8
2. saved by faith – Acts 16:31; Eph. 2:8; I Peter 1:9
3. saved by confession – Rom. 10:10; I John 1:9; James 5:16
4. saved by repentance – Luke 13:3; II Cor. 7:10; II Peter 3:9
5. saved by baptism – Mark 16:16; John 3:5; I Peter 3:21
6. saved by the Holy Ghost – John 3:5; Rom. 8:9; Eph. 1:13,14
7. saved by endurance – II Tim. 2:10; James 1:12; Heb. 3:6
Salvation is a process:
1. we have been saved, “According to his mercy he saved us” (Titus 3:5), and “{God} has saved us and called us to a holy life” (2 Tim 1:9),
2. we are being saved, “For by grace are ye saved” (Eph 2:8), and “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” (Phi 2:12),
3. we shall be saved, “much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life” (Rom 5:10) and “Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.” (I Tim 4:16).
God only gives this final salvation if we continue in him (Rom 11:22; Col 1:23; I John 2:24,25).”
http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/process.htm
If one is only looking for fire insurance, once saved, always saved.
God provides and has planned for much more for us.
Our Lord and Savior didn’t just bring fire insurance. He constantly taught us the Word to provide us life insurance.
By remaining in fellowship with Him, walking with Him through faith in Christ, He continues the sanctification processes in us.
When we are tested, again by faith in Christ we may win crowns which have been predetermined in eternity past.
If we fall out of fellowship, He disciplines us. Our sins are still paid for, but until we return to Him, by facing Him and confessing them to Him through faith in Christ alone, then our fellowship with Him is restored. Our soul may be scarred from sin and the consequences of our sin, but we still have fellowship with perfect righteousness through faith in Christ, no matter how heinous our sins may have been.
If we further rebel from Him, we don’t lose eternal life, but when we stand before the bema seat, we are judged on our works through faith in Him, and some of those crowns which were already made for us, will not be rewarded us, but may become eternal memorials to the foolishness of man in failing to remain in faith in Him in all things.
In James we see that faith without works is dead. That does not mean that if we don’t perform good works, God condemns us to the Lake of Fire. Rather, death is a state of existence involving separation. Faith separated from works is simply separate,.i.e. dead. Man’s anthropology is in body, soul, and spirit. Faith is a system of perception in the spiritual life. When coupled with our remaining in faith through Him, we are placed in the position to perform good works as He has intended from eternity past.
Our works through faith in Him might not be similar for all believers. Some may be accounted as worthy of 5 different crowns. After being purified as if by fire, our remaining good works shall be presented at the bema seat for his rewards of crowns. The incorruptible crowm of 1Cor 9:24-35, or the crown of glorying (1Thes 2:19), a crown of righteousness (II Thes 4:7-8), a crown of life for those who endure trials, (and Rev2:10) and the crown of glory 1Pet 5:2-4.
These are crowns of determining degrees of authority in the Messianic Kingdom, not the Eternal Order.
Rock Solid: The Salvation History of the Catholic Church [Ecumenical]
Getting in Touch With Reality (good character and behavior as a ticket to Heaven)
The Early Church Fathers on Salvation Outside the Church [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]
Extra ecclesiam - Outside the Church there is no salvation.
Is Faith Necessary for Salvation? (Part 2)
Good Will Equals Salvation? (Did the pope say non christians could be saved - part 1)
The Experience of the Salvation of Christ Today
And how did Luther change the Bible?
He added the word ‘alone’ after faith.
Rosary bump.
Yes, there is a heaven, but there is also a hell.
Many people will be shocked at which direction they will be going at the moment of their death because of the things they did while on earth.
So which sins did Christ not redeem us from while on the Cross?
I suspect there will be many degenerate Catholics, who at one time had simple faith in Christ, but later felt overburdened by the demands of the Catholic Church to persevere by their standards, instead of placing faith alone in Christ alone, who will find themselves in heaven by His work, not by the RCC's efforts.
Unfortunately, many having been distracted by worldly religious institutions, attempting to counterfeit God's kingdom on earth, shall leave many a crown on the table which had been preordained for them had they remained faithful to Him alone.
Christ redeemed us from all sins. As baptized Catholics, we can agree that we have been justified and we have been saved. Thus, in one sense, our justification and salvation is in the past as a completed action. The initial grace of justification and salvation we receive in baptism is a done deal. And Catholics do not believe we were partially justified or partially saved at baptism. Catholics believe, as Peter says in 1 Peter 3:21, "Baptism… now saves you…" Ananias said to Saul of Tarsus, "Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name" (Acts 22:16). That means the new Christian has been "washed… sanctified… [and] justified" as 1 Corinthians 6:11 remarks. That much is a done deal; thus, it is entirely proper to say we "have been justified" and we "have been saved." However, this is not the end of the story. Scripture reveals that through this justification and salvation the new Christian experiences in baptism, he enters into a process of justification and salvation requiring his free cooperation with God’s grace. If we read the very next verses of our above-cited texts, we find the writer telling us there is more to the story.
Romans 5:1-2 states, "Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in our hope (not presumption) of sharing the glory of God."
There are many biblical texts revealing justification to have a future and contingent sense as well as those that show a past sense. In other words, justification and salvation also have a sense in which they are not complete in the lives of believers. Perhaps this is most plainly seen in Galatians 5:1-5:
For freedom Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. Now I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness.
The Greek word used in verse 5 and here translated as righteousness is dikaiosunes, which can be translated either as "righteousness" or as "justification." In fact, Romans 4:3, which we quoted above, uses a verb form of this same word for justification. Now the fact that St. Paul tells us we "wait for the hope of [justification]" is very significant. As we said before, what is hoped for not yet possessed. It is still in the future. Romans 8:24 tells us "For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience." The context of Galatians is clear: Paul warns Galatian Christians that if they attempt to be justified—even though they are already justified in one sense, through baptism, according to Galatians 3:27—by the works of the law, they will fall from the grace of Christ. Why? Because they would be attempting to be justified apart from Christ and the gospel of Christ. That they could not do! For "those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Rom. 8:8, cf. Gal. 5:19-21). "The flesh" is a reference to the human person apart from grace. read more
Paul doesn't hope like you all and your pope...
̓λπίς
elpis
el-pece'
From ἔλπω elpō which is a primary word (to anticipate, usually with pleasure); expectation (abstract or concrete) or confidence: - faith, hope.
Hope is conficence, expectation, anticipation...
It is NOT wishful thinking like you guys have...
We not only read the scriptures 'very' closely, we believe what we read...And we divide it like it says...
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
We do the good works...NOT because we have to as the previous verses clearly show, but because God put it into our hearts to want to do good works for Him, for God's glory, not ours...
If we do good works to gain salvation, we'll be denyed salvation...And that's the difference between you guys and us...
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