As far as I recall, they're just ordinary, fun-loving, motorcycle enthusiasts.
Posted on 02/20/2008 11:03:10 AM PST by NYer
“Paganism” is a term fraught with all sorts of connotations.
It originally meant something like “country dweller,” “rustic” or even “hick.” That’s because (contrary to popular myth) Christianity did not spread among the Hee Haw-watchers of antiquity, but among the city dwellers and urban folk.
The very last people to receive the faith were the rural folk who clung to the worship of the old gods and the customs of their ancestors long after Christianity had become thoroughly established in the cities.
So the term originally referred only to “country folk.”
However, because the country folk were devoted to the various gods of the Gentiles, it came to mean something else: a worshipper of non-Christian deities.
And as those deities receded into the past and became conflated with the demons of both revelation and of the medieval imagination, “pagan” came to take on a much darker significance.
It became fraught with imagery of devils, horned gods, and all manner of wild witchery (which paganism was sometimes, in fact, fraught with). To call somebody a “pagan” in this sense was no longer to describe where they lived, but to say something desperately dark about their soul.
Finally, in these latter days, “pagan” has taken yet another turn and is now used in some circles as a compliment. Among a growing number of people, “pagan” now means “post-Christian religionist who is attempting to rescue reverence for Nature from the hands of evil Judeo-Christian earth rapists.”
The notion behind this version of “pagan” is that there was once a magical far-off time when humans dwelt in harmony with Mother Earth, everybody was comfortable with their various Jungian archetypes, and all was well as we worshipped the “gods” and “goddesses” who both expressed the beauty of Nature and got us in touch with our inmost selves (and lots of libido, to boot).
Who needs all that stuff about sin, dying to self and the need for redemption? The great blunder of the human race was when the old gods were swept away by the evil Judeo-Christian God. We have to return to our natural state of innocence with the gods (and especially the goddesses) of Nature that reigned before God mucked everything up. Then we will find the happiness we are all seeking.
The first thing to note about paganism, is the last thing that I note: It is seeking something. Paganism is, according to G.K. Chesterton, a search. Chesterton had a very high regard for pre-Christian paganism. He famously said that paganism was the attempt to reach God through the imagination. He declared, “Paganism was the largest thing in the world and Christianity was larger; and everything else has been comparatively small.” The thing it is seeking is the thing we all seek: the thing St. Thomas Aquinas says we can’t not seek — happiness.
But that brings us to our second point: namely that paganism takes two basic forms — pre-Christian and post-Christian.
Pre-Christian paganism was, says philosopher Peter Kreeft, a virgin. Post-Christian paganism is, he adds, a divorcee. And that matters enormously because there are two basic reasons people ask questions: to find something out and to keep from finding something out.
Pre-Christian paganism was (for the most part) an attempt to find God. It was (as we shall see in our next discussion) often alloyed with all sorts of error and hampered by original sin. But the fundamental goal was a search for God. As such, it was ordered toward reality, though much hampered in the pursuit by the effects of sin.
Post-Christian paganism is, first and foremost, a search for an escape from God. It is a hunt for the blessings of heaven without the trouble of submitting to heaven. As such, it is ordered toward unreality, though much hampered in the pursuit by the work of the Holy Spirit.
Now it should be noted here that merely living in the 21st century does not automatically make you a post-Christian pagan. It is quite possible for pre-Christian pagans to exist in this day and age. I well remember a woman I worked with who was spurred by Joan Osborne’s song with the refrain “What if God was one of us?” to remark: “Wouldn’t that be a cool idea for a story?”
“What?” I queried.
“Well, suppose God became a human being. Wouldn’t that be a great idea for a story?”
I remarked, “Yeah! You could call it ‘The Greatest Story Ever Told’ or something.”
She had no clue that this was what Christianity taught. It was, even at this date, news. And she was amazed.
But others are, in Chesterton’s phrase, “weary of hearing what they have never yet heard.” These divorcee post-Christians are looking, not for God, but for something — anything — else.
Understanding that is the essential first step. Next time, we will discuss the next step.
Interesting.
As far as I recall, they're just ordinary, fun-loving, motorcycle enthusiasts.
bttt
. . . (which paganism was sometimes, in fact, fraught with) . . .
Certain aspects of paganism didn't need 'demonizing'. Whatever that means -- it's become a buzz word devoid of meaning, like 'racist'.
But you don't have to read far in Tacitus, Suetonius, Euripides or Homer to find the desperately evil aspects of paganism. Never mind the early Church fathers and all the hideous persecutions under the Roman Empire, this is information from the pagans themselves.
And the larger point of this article -- that pre-Christian paganism was a virgin while post-Christian paganism is a divorcee' -- is an excellent point that explains a great deal of the unhappiness that I see among my 'pagan' (Wiccan and Norse-pagan) friends.
paint over it as much as you want. History is merely repeating itself. Only the actors have changed. You had a good run.
There are many problems with that theory. First and foremost of course that it isn't true - it doesn't hold water. History does not repeat itself, ever. The lessons one can learn from events in history, however, are always the same. That's because there is an objective Truth and an objective Right. When events in history wander too far from Truth and Right, the actors suffer the inevitable consequences.
The pre-Christian Pagans in substantial part were working towards Truth and Right, but hampered by the dark forces that acted within the Pagan culture. The post-Christian Pagans, as well as the secularists, are fleeing from it as fast as they can run. . . . and never seem to stop to think what they may be running towards.
What that objective Truth and Right is, you will have to discover for yourself, and I pray that you will.
One day anthropologists will discuss it. They may even interpret some things right.
One Holy Catholic Apostolic????? Something to think about.
We stand on the shoulders of giants. I stand with the Doctors of the Church, who are a good deal more learned and more intelligent than anyone I know, myself included.
it still requires you to be right. If you are not you simply stand holding an empty bag wondering why no one follows you.
See this article just posted on Pope Benedict's upcoming visit, and a retrospective of Pope John Paul II's visit to Toronto.
I found particularly interesting the comments of nonbelieving and hard line liberal columnists regarding their surprise at the thousands of joyous young people who showed up to see Pope John Paul the Great.
By their fruits ye shall know them.
You think you do others think otherwise hence they are finding their own way. In the end you have there choices to keep them; change their minds, address what they want or force them to stay through coercion.
The pagans of old probably felt the same way hence my original post to this thread.
Areopagus — usually translated as “Mars Hill” although “Mars Heath” would be a better translation.
(Germanic-derived “heathen” = Greco/Roman-derived “pagan”)
There ya go! Aren’t languages a wonderful thing?
In Catholicism you will find answers to life’s most troubling questions: Why am I here? Who made me? What must I believe? How must I act? All these can be answered to your satisfaction, if only you will open yourself to God’s grace, turn to the Church he established, and follow his plan for you (John 7:17).
AN UNBROKEN HISTORY
Jesus said his Church would be "the light of the world." He then noted that "a city set on a hill cannot be hid" (Matt. 5:14). This means his Church is a visible organization. It must have characteristics that clearly identify it and that distinguish it from other churches. Jesus promised, "I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18). This means that his Church will never be destroyed and will never fall away from him. His Church will survive until his return.
Among the Christian churches, only the Catholic Church has existed since the time of Jesus. Every other Christian church is an offshoot of the Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox churches broke away from unity with the pope in 1054. The Protestant churches were established during the Reformation, which began in 1517. (Most of today’s Protestant churches are actually offshoots of the original Protestant offshoots.)
Only the Catholic Church existed in the tenth century, in the fifth century, and in the first century, faithfully teaching the doctrines given by Christ to the apostles, omitting nothing. The line of popes can be traced back, in unbroken succession, to Peter himself. This is unequaled by any institution in history.
Even the oldest government is new compared to the papacy, and the churches that send out door-to-door missionaries are young compared to the Catholic Church. Many of these churches began as recently as the nineteenth or twentieth centuries. Some even began during your own lifetime. None of them can claim to be the Church Jesus established.
The Catholic Church has existed for nearly 2,000 years, despite constant opposition from the world. This is testimony to the Church’s divine origin. It must be more than a merely human organization, especially considering that its human members— even some of its leaders—have been unwise, corrupt, or prone to heresy.
Any merely human organization with such members would have collapsed early on. The Catholic Church is today the most vigorous church in the world (and the largest, with a billion members: one sixth of the human race), and that is testimony not to the cleverness of the Church’s leaders, but to the protection of the Holy Spirit.
What is a pagan?
Barack Hussein Obama
| "Since Your Majesty and Your Lordships desire a simple reply, I will answer.
Unless I am convinced by Scripture and by plain reason, and not by Popes and councils who have so often contradicted themselves, my conscience is captive to the word of God. To go against conscience is neither right nor safe. I cannot, and I will not recant. Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me." |
>>AN UNBROKEN HISTORY<<
Yeah.
From Spurgeon’s sermon, “The Standard Uplifted
in the Face of the Foe” No. 718. Isaiah 59:19.
In 325, Emperor Constantine, for reasons of state
craft and subtle policy, made Christianity the national
religion, and thus struck the most fearful blow at
the vitals of Christianity. The union of church and
state is a fatal blow to true religion. The king’s
hand wherever it falls upon the church of Christ
brings the king’s evil with it. There never was a
church whose spirituality survived it yet, and there
never will be.
Christ’s kingdom is not of this world, and if we
try to marry the church of Christ to a worldly
kingdom, we engender innumerable mischiefs.
So it happened that when the church became
outwardly glorious she became spiritually debased.
Her communion table glittered with gold and silver plate,
but her communion with Christ was not so golden as
before. Her ministers were enriched, but their doctrine
was impoverished. For every ounce of outward gold which
she gained, she lost a treasure of grace. Her bishops
became lords, and her flocks were famished. Her humble
meeting-places were exchanged for grand basilicas, but
the true glory was departed.
She became like the heathen around her, and began
to set up the images of her saints, until at last, after
years of gradual declension, the Church of Rome
ceased to be the church of Christ, and that which
was once nominally the church of Christ actually
became the Antichrist.
Black darkness covered the lands, and the dark ages set
in. Instead of pardon bought with the blood of Jesus, false
priests made merchandise of souls, and pardons were
hawked in the streets. Instead of deacons and elders
adorned with holiness and purity; monks, and nuns, and
priests, and even popes became monsters of filthiness.
Instead of justification by faith, men proclaimed justification
by pilgrimages and by penances. The crucifix took the place
of Christ Jesus, and a piece of bread was lifted up as a god,
and men bowed before it, and said, “These be your gods, O
Israel, that redeemed you from the wrath to come.”
The "Constantine imposed erroneous doctrines on the Church" canard can be easily refuted by a cursory examination of the early Church Fathers. All the "errors" supposedly introduced by Constantine may be found in the patristic writings long before Constantine was born, let alone exercising his supposedly sinister statecraft.
The 17th century, just for example, was far more brutal, benighted, and violent than the "dark ages".
“The one thing you fail to understand is that your own religion may not be the correct one.”
And what you fail to understand is that, notwithstanding as many “mays” as you wish to conjure up, the fact is that Christianity is true.
Selah.
“From Spurgeon’s sermon”
I hadn’t seen that before. I begin to understand where people get those whacked out ideas.
Not exactly because as your logic dictates... your ancient ancestors lived by the sword, you die by the sword.
That is an opinion not a fact.
Christians apparently do not believe that sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
And now their descendants are finding a new way.
All fine and dandy for you for others who expect concrete answers, "trust the invisible man who lives in the sky," is insufficient to their needs.
CzarNicky apparently believes that the son is guilty for the sins of the father and that two wrongs make a right. Christianity is not for you.
No it isn't, I put away childish things a long time ago.
Your hatred for Christians is now fully exposed.
Other than gloating about your perception of Christians being persecuted and exposing your contempt for them (which is actually against FR posting rules, you may want to look into that), Uhm... what was your purpose of posting in this thread?
Hatred is a strong motivator eh?
revel in your persecution complex all you wish. I do not hate groups merely individuals.
Other than gloating about your perception of Christians being persecuted and exposing your contempt for them (which is actually against FR posting rules, you may want to look into that), Uhm... what was your purpose of posting in this thread?
My purpose was that I noticed the irony of a religion that displaced practitioners of other faiths, very much likely to their dismay, is now whining about being similarly displaced in the here and now. As for any violation of posting rules there is an abuse button you can select if your feelings are hurt.
Hatred is a strong motivator eh?
I guess having an opinion different from someone else counts as hatred now. Of course not voting for Obama counts a racism so I don't put much credence in words bandied about by someone in a rage.
Which is totally silly. Why translate part of the word into Latin and part into English? Does someone think we don't know Ares is the Greek god of war? (We watched "Hercules: The Legendary Journeys," after all ... :-).
It's like "Oedipus Rex."
It means the Greek Supreme Court.
In modern Greece?
Not all who wander are lost, but in this case they are.
Straw man. Or, in this case, straw god.
Deriding a religious belief suitable for a child of 6 proves nothing with respect to mature Christian faith.
The whole point of Christianity is that God is no longer invisible. He humbled himself to become man and suffered and died for our salvation - mine, and yours too. That is the concrete answer.
By who's estimates, The author's? I suspect the author has some very severe bias towards one particular way and you share that view.
Not all who wander are lost, but in this case they are.
In other words anyone who believes to the contrary is then labeled "lost" or whatever pejorative they want.
Everything you believe is predicated on what is believed being "the truth" everything falls apart if it is not. That is the two meter wide hole going directly to the reactor core. You are free to ignore it all you want many people no longer do so.
The questions they ask have been answered by many good men whose wisdom, learning, and experience exceeds all of ours. Yet they rely on their own powers and ignore the stored up learning of centuries.
Why is that, I wonder?
No not a straw man or god. It cuts directly to the heart of what you believe.
Deriding a religious belief suitable for a child of 6 proves nothing with respect to mature Christian faith.
Failing to take stock in what you believe in is what is suitable for a child of six. If I were to go around saying I have an invisible friend who I talk to and he grants me wishes like some cosmic genie I'd be thrown in the loony bin. What you refer to a being a child I refer to as boiling down to the components parts. That people do not like that indicates a problem on their part not mine.
The whole point of Christianity is that God is no longer invisible. He humbled himself to become man and suffered and died for our salvation - mine, and yours too. That is the concrete answer.
That is not an answer that is a carrot dangled to attract converts. Perhaps you should change the bait.
“That is an opinion not a fact.”
No, sorry, it is a fact, objective, empirical, and demonstrated.
You accept many things as facts for which the proof is far more tenuous.
All fine and dandy why do you feel the need to keep repeating that? I have already stated my position others have their own reasons for believing as they do.
The questions they ask have been answered by many good men whose wisdom, learning, and experience exceeds all of ours. Yet they rely on their own powers and ignore the stored up learning of centuries.
So if good men say 2+2=5 it is five. Is this Good Brother instead of Big Brother?
Why is that, I wonder?
You could look into it or just believe the choice is yours.
In case you want to know I have no animus towards Christianity. Frankly I have no dog in the fight in their quest for souls with any other religion except islam and my beef with islam has more to do with islam's excesses in the temporal world. What I do have a problem with is someone so blinded by their beliefs they are willing to go to their own destruction believing everyone jumping off is somehow a traitor. This is not something limited to just religion.
prove that it is a fact and use something other than the bible. The bible has a slight bias towards itself.
Straw god again.
This does not cut to the heart of anyone's belief. You are stating what you believe religion to be . . . not what it actually is. And your stated belief is contrary to Christianity as it is. That is the very definition of a straw man argument -- attack a proposition you created yourself, not what you are purporting to attack.
That is not an answer that is a carrot dangled to attract converts. Perhaps you should change the bait.
No, that is the straw man again. You are imagining what you believe the faith to be. Why don't you ask questions and seek real answers, instead of asking rhetorical questions and treating every statement with exaggerated suspicion?
Your position is neither daring nor intellectual. It is so common that C.S. Lewis put your very words in the mouths of the obstinate Dwarves in The Last Battle. "They are so afraid of being taken in, that they cannot be taken out."
Much of what we're talking about predates the compilation of the group of writings now called 'the Bible'.
It's a book you might have heard of it.
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