Claud, where the rubber meets the road is Jesus saying that those who worship must worship in Spirit and in Truth.
Those who teach obvious, made-up UNTRUTH cannot be the true Church, no matter if they’ve got sacramental theology coming out their ears, complete with real-life, true splinters from the actual Golgotha cross itself and the factual, actual Holy Grail to drink from.
Human lineage is of no importance. Props are of no importance. SPIRITUAL, TRUTHFUL worship is what matters. The RC FLUNKS the test with a number of things, the most egregious being: assumption, immaculate conception, and coredemption of Mary.
For all his vaunted, entirely too opulent status, Pope Benedict is an empty vessl, “pontificating” foolishness, traditions of men, and UNTRUTH.
Yes indeed, and that is EXACTLY what this document is saying. Only you think that the Reformation doctrines of the 16th century are the pure Gospel, unalloyed and uncorrupted....and we think (with better reason IMHO) that those doctrines are exactly the kind of made-up untruth that you condemn.
But for *where we think the Truth to lie*, we are in perfect agreement.
And thank you for raising the issue of the “doctrines and traditions of men” – one of my favorite subjects. As you know, I personally reject all of the doctrines and traditions of men across the board – and this gives me yet another opportunity to explain why.
God didn’t make us with a “cookie cutter.” Peter was not like Paul who was not like John who was not like doubting Thomas. But Jesus chose each and every one of them. Likewise, in Revelation 2 and 3 – He accepts with commendations and rebukes seven different churches with very different circumstances and challenges.
The apostles themselves had disputes precisely because some of them tried to rationalize Christ to their Jewish traditions, what they reasoned to be “true” despite their being filled with the Holy Spirit. (Acts 15) In other words, there were moments when even the apostles trusted their own reasoning above the revelations of God. Likewise, they insinuated themselves into God’s blessing of the indwelling Holy Spirit and were astonished to see their error (Acts 10 and 11)
Surely no one would question the intent of the Apostles! It appears therefore to be an unfortunate tendency of mortal men to "anthropomorphize" God. Evidently aware of the risk, Paul did not immediately confer with men (Gal 1) but instead received the doctrine directly from God for three years before visiting Peter for 15 days.
Faith and reason are complimentary. But reason cannot substitute for faith.
To see what happens when man wanders beyond the words of God, rationalizing what he doesn’t understand – we need only compare the Talmud to the Tanakh (Torah, writings and prophets.) Or compare the dogma, doctrines and traditions of any Christian Church to Scriptures. No assembly of men is exempt from this tendency which God warns against:
Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands? He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with [their] lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, [as] the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. – Mark 7:5-9
I’ve taken a lot of guff around here - both from atheists and theists - specifically because I value Spiritual revelations above all other kinds of knowledge – including sensory perception and reason.
But how could I not? I’ve known Jesus personally for nigh onto a half century. I love Him, I believe Him, I trust Him. He is not a “hypothetical.” It’s no contest who I believe.
Nevertheless, I praise God for the assemblies of men – the churches (or sheep pens to follow the John 10 metaphor) – when they truly dedicate themselves to Jesus Christ! Some Christians – especially new Christians just beginning their walk with the Lord – do not know the Shepherd well enough yet to follow Him through the gate into the open field or whatever pen (assembly) He chooses for them.
At bottom, we are individual Christians according to His own will, like the Apostles were, each at a different point in our sanctification, each a different part of His body (I Cor 15), each having some – but not all – of the Truth He alone is revealing to us (John 14-17, Romans 8, I Cor 2.)
Therefore, I do not expect any other Christian to see things exactly the same way I do except for our core beliefs. Nor would I suggest that any individual Christian or assembly is at risk for having a different leading in the Spirit.
It is as if we are looking at the same seven-faceted diamond facing different facets. But it is the same diamond and the same Light.
To God be the glory!
Amen, x.
"One Mass is more fearful than if ten thousand armed enemies were landed in any part of the realm." -- John Knox.
But when it comes to denouncing idolatry and fable, we're poor fascimiles of those who went before us in history who faced more than internet rebukes; who suffered real injury and death to proclaim the Gospel in truth and Spirit.
From a magazine article by Edward Panosian on the life of John Knox...
In the wintry wind of that February day, the difficulty of lighting the fire and the need to re-light it several times prolonged the agony of Hamilton's death over six hours. Men later said that the smoke of his burning infected all on whom it blew. While men asked, "Wherefore was Patrick Hamilton burnt?" (as Knox later wrote), more young Scots visited Germany and Switzerland where the reformation was underway. More Lutheran books and more English New Testaments and Bibles, Tyndale's and Coverdale's, were bought and sold, in spite of repeated injunctions against them. Under the preaching of George Wishart, Knox was enlisted in the cause of the Gospel in which he was to spend his life. Wishart was a gentle preacher and teacher of the reformed faith. "Suspected of heresy because he read the Greek New Testament with his students," he had fled his native Scotland, studied in England at Cambridge, in Switzerland under the influence of Zwingli, and in Germany. He returned to effect reform--of church and state--at home. John Knox's first entrance on the stage of church history is as Wishart's literal bodyguard, carrying a sword because of an assassination attempt by a priest upon the preacher. Having preached the evangelical doctrine throughout Scotland, doctrine which according to his trial included salvation by faith, the Scriptures as the only test of truth, the denial of purgatory and confession to a priest, and the rejection of the Roman Catholic mass as blasphemous idolatry, Wishart was arrested by Cardinal Beaton (hated nephew of the archbishop who had burned Hamilton), tried, and burned on the eighteenth anniversary of Hamilton's death (1546). Knox was eager to accompany his noble friend, but the elder Wishart refused, saying, "One is sufficient for one sacrifice." Within a few weeks, Scottish nobles murdered the cardinal and, as refugees, took possession of Beaton's seaside castle of St. Andrews. Knox was invited to be their chaplain and continued to tutor his young students. In this strange parish Knox first preached. So vehement was his excoriation of the lives of his rebel "parishioners" and of the teachings and doctrines of the Roman church that after his first sermon his hearers declared: "Others snipped at the branches of popery; but he strikes at the roots, to destroy the whole." Now the Protestant rebels against an ecclesiastical government awaited help from England. But French ships arrived instead. French troops captured the castle and its defenders, and Knox began 19 months as a French galley slave under flogging and cursing, learning to be an apostle of liberty to his people. One incident during those months reveals something of the latent fire in the Scottish preacher, even while in chains. A picture of the Virgin Mary was brought on board, while the galley was in port, to be kissed by the slaves. When Knox refused, the picture was thrust into his face. Outraged, he flung the "accursed idol" into the river, saying "Let our Lady learn to swim." After his release, Knox went to England for five years. Now ruled (1549) by the protestant, Edward, England welcomed John Knox. He preached in a settled parish, learned much about reforming work, and became a royal chaplain. With the accession of the bloody queen, Mary Tudor, Knox became a Marian exile to avoid becoming a Marian martyr, and labored and learned at Frankfurt and in Calvin's Geneva. Those were retreats for preparation before advances for battle. In a letter to a friend, Knox wrote a sterling tribute to the moral quality of life in Geneva, calling it "the most perfect school of Christ that ever was in the earth since the days of the Apostles. In other places I confess Christ to be truly preached; but manners and religion to be so seriously reformed, I have not yet seen in any other place besides." Back in Scotland for several months, his preaching further strengthened the Protestant cause. As a result, many of the Scottish nobility banded together into a covenant in which they renounced "the congregation of Satan, with all the superstitious abomination and idolatry thereof" and affirmed the establishment of "the most blessed word of God and his congregation," and the defense of "the whole congregation of Christ, and every member thereof." These "Lords of the Congregation" became the political backbone of the remaking of a nation...""...The young Knox had known of the burning of the Scottish nobleman and humanist, Patrick Hamilton, in 1528. Hamilton, who had studied in Paris and learned the teachings of Luther at Marburg, had returned as a teacher to St. Andrews University. As a preacher of the new reformation views and doctrines, he offended the Archbishop, was tried for having taught "theological views deemed heretical," admitted them to be Biblical, and was condemned to the stake.