Posted on 06/11/2007 8:11:53 PM PDT by markomalley
| CHURCH GREW IN UNDERSTANDING OF MARY’S ROLE |
| Pope John Paul II |
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Down the centuries, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the Church has sought to understand more clearly the revealed truth about the Mother of God "The sparse information on Mary's earthly life is compensated by its quality and theological richness, which contemporary exegesis has carefully brought to light", the Holy Father said at the General Audience of Wednesday, 8 November, as he continued his reflections on the Virgin Mary. The Pope's catechesis on Mary in Sacred Scripture and theological reflection was the fourth in the series on the Blessed Mother and was given in Italian. 1. In our preceding catecheses we saw how the doctrine of Mary's motherhood passed from its first formula, "Mother of Jesus", to the more complete and explicit, "Mother of God", even to the affirmation of her maternal involvement in the redemption of humanity. For other aspects of Marian doctrine as well, many centuries were necessary to arrive at the explicit definition of the revealed truths concerning Mary. Typical examples of this faith journey towards the ever deeper discovery of Mary's role in the history of salvation are the dogma of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption, proclaimed, as we know by two of my venerable predecessors, respectively, the Servant of God Pius IX in 1854, and the Servant of God Pius XII during the Jubilee Year of 1950.
Mariology is a particular field of theological research: in it the Christian people's love for Mary intuited, frequently in anticipation, certain aspects of the mystery of the Blessed Virgin, calling the attention of theologians and pastors to them. Mother of Jesus had role in salvation history 2. We must recognize that, at first sight, the Gospels offer scant information on the person and life of Mary. We would certainly like to have had fuller information about her, which would have enabled us to know the Mother of God better. This expectation remains unsatisfied, even in the other New Testament writings where an explicit doctrinal development regarding Mary is lacking. Even St Paul's letters, which offer us a rich reflection on Christ and his work, limit themselves to stating, in a very significant passage, that God sent his Son "born of woman" (Gal 4:4). Very little is said about Mary's family. If we exclude the infancy narratives, in the Synoptic Gospels we find only two statements which shed some light on Mary: one concerning the attempt by his "brethren" or relatives to take Jesus back to Nazareth (cf. Mk 3:2 1; Mt 12:48); the other, in response to a woman's exclamation about the blessedness of Jesus' Mother (Lk 11:27).
Nevertheless, Luke, in the infancy Gospel, in the episodes of the Annunciation, the Visitation, the birth of Jesus, the presentation of the Child in the temple and his finding among the teachers at the age of 12, not only provides us with some important facts, but presents a sort of "proto-Mariology" of fundamental interest. His information is indirectly completed by Matthew in the account of the annunciation to Joseph (Mt 1:18-25), but only with regard to the virginal conception of Jesus. Moreover, John's Gospel deepens our knowledge of the value for salvation history of the role played by the Mother of Jesus, when it records her presence at the beginning and end of his public fife. Particularly significant is Mary's presence at the Cross, when she received from her dying Son the charge to be mother to the beloved disciple and, in him, to all Christians (cf. Jn 2:1-12; Jn 19:25-27). Lastly, the Acts of the Apostles expressly numbers the Mother of Jesus among the women of the first community awaiting Pentecost (cf. Acts 1:14). However, in the absence of further New Testament evidence and reliable historical sources, we know nothing of Mary's life after the Pentecost event nor of the date and circumstances of her death. We can only suppose that she continued to live with the Apostle John and that she was very closely involved in the development of the first Christian community. 3. The sparse information on Mary's earthly life is compensated by its quality and theological richness, which contemporary exegesis has carefully brought to light. Moreover, we must remember that the Evangelists' viewpoint is totally Christological and is concerned with the Mother only in relation to the joyful proclamation of the Son. As St Ambrose observed, the Evangelist, in expounding the mystery of the Incarnation, "believed it was better not to seek further testimonies about Mary's virginity, in order not to seem the defender of the Virgin rather than the preacher of the mystery" (Exp. in Lucam, 2, 6: PL 15, 1555).
We can recognize in this fact a special intention of the Holy Spirit, who desired to awaken in the Church an effort of research which, preserving the centrality of the mystery of Christ, might not be caught up in details about Mary's life, but aim above all at discovering her role in the work of salvation, her personal holiness and her maternal mission in Christian life. Faith of the simple recognized Mary's holiness 4. The Holy Spirit guides the Church's effort, committing her to take on Mary's own attitudes. In the account of Jesus' birth, Luke noted how his mother kept all these things, "pondering them in her heart" (Lk 2:19), striving, that is, to "put together" (symballousa), in a deeper vision, all the events of which she was the privileged witness. Similarly, the people of God are also urged by the same Spirit to understand deeply all that has been said about Mary, in order to progress in the knowledge of her mission, intimately linked to the mystery of Christ.
As Mariology develops, the particular role of the Christian people emerges. They co-operate, by the affirmation and witness of their faith, in the progress of Marian doctrine, which normally is not only the work of theologians, even if their task is indispensable to deepening and clearly explaining the datum of faith and the Christian experience itself. The faith of the simple is admired and praised by Jesus, who recognized in it a marvellous expression of the Father's benevolence (cf. Mt 11:25; Lk 10:21). Down the centuries it continues to proclaim the marvels of the history of salvation, hidden from the wise. This faith, in harmony with the Virgin's simplicity, has led to progress in the recognition of her personal holiness and the transcendent value of her motherhood. The mystery of Mary commits every Christian, in communion with the Church, "to pondering in his heart" what the Gospel revelation affirms about the Mother of Christ. In the logic of the Magnificat, after the example of Mary, each one will personally experience God's love and will discover a sign of God's tenderness for man in the marvels wrought by the Blessed Trinity in the woman "full of grace". |
I've been keeping you in my thoughts and prayers. Through my meditations, I have been given to share with you Psalm 31 and Psalm 50. Also, the Book of Job.
I've also initiated a dialog with my Pastor via e-mail about the possibility that Christ will return again in the flesh. I've told her that I've had the discussion with some very spiritually connected people (you included) and have felt later that I was lying or hiding something -- bearing false witness. I do know that I'm laying a foundation for the Holy City of New Jerusalem... I have called for all Swedenborgians on a major list we have to become more charismatic and engaging -- to spread the Word as the TIME has Come!
I was praying and meditating during the cathedral sermon this morning. The sermon lesson was Leviticus 6: 9-13. The Lord very clearly gave me the keys to the Second Coming and salvation! This generation is ready for the SIGN!
The principal to understanding and helping others realize their full potential - pull them out of their shell - is they will use certain language.
The public keyword for the Apocalypse is 'COME'. as in 'Kingdom Come'. The challenge key is 'KEY' as in Rev 1:18 Behold I hold the keys to Hell and Death. Search the scriptures on the keyword 'death' and pray and meditate. You may hear these words spoken, written, in the media. Pay attention! Don't try to force it unless you have a sacred and sincere question. If you see a post or a thread title here withe these WORDS, the Lord is trying to get your attention!
We can start other threads about testimonies on various topic.. Quix, you may want to ping your end-times ping list on this post. It isn't a drill or a joke -- this testimony comes from the Lord Almighty Amen and Amen!
BTW, the mile wide UFO was the sign of the Lord appearing in the clouds.
Matt 9:15 Jesus answered, "How can the guests of the bridegroom mourn while he is with them? The time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them; then they will fast.
I was reading Rev chapt 12 and the WORDS are LEAPING off the page.
Judge for yourselves. Know the enemy, it's NOT our spiritual brothers and sisters in Christ.
Peace be with you...
Come, let us reason together...
Why do you believe that Christianity was corrupt by 373 AD?
Do you think Saint Athanasius, Saint Cyril,Saint Basil,Saint Jerome,Saint Ignatius,Saint Polycarp,Saint Irenaues and others were corrupt.
Show us Catholics where they were corrupt?
List what influences corrupted them?
( If you say Constantine ,I will prove you wrong very easily, I am also very educated about mithraism)
Do you think you could possibly be corrupt in your Christian thinking?
Over one million Christians were brutally tortured by the year 373 AD.
Can you point to any Christian that was not corrupt.
Even one Saint?
Dear Sister, the Saints I mentioned were not corrupt.
I used the "373 AD" in my reply because that was the date attributed to the quote we were previously discussing.
And I don’t need to reach far for evidence. The first example is in Acts 10 and 11. Peter was still doubting the meaning of the sheet vision he had just received – three times - showing that the Jewish dietary laws did not apply under the new covenant – when Cornelius’ men arrived.
More significantly, they did not expect these Gentiles to receive the Holy Spirit directly like they did, which is to say without their doing something first - like baptizing them in water first, finish speaking or perhaps laying on the hands.
These earliest Christians were reading things into God’s words. I do not doubt their motives, but even they muddied the waters with their own doctrines and traditions.
A little further into Acts, some Christians from Judea made an even worse mistake, this time not only embracing their Jewish doctrines - but now further insisting that observing them was necessary for salvation:
Paul and Barnabas were upset over it and traveled to Jerusalem for a confrontation.
The ones pushing for the Jewish doctrines and traditions were the converted Pharisees, no surprise there. But by now, Peter had learned the lesson rather well and he spoke up again remembering Cornelius and the manner in which he received the Holy Spirit (third time:)
Rather, I choose to go directly to Source on every issue –great and small. I love Him, I believe Him, I trust Him.
Oh, and to return to the point about “threeness.” The sheet vision occurred three times, likewise the Holy Spirit filling the Gentile message was repeated three times. When a message is repeated, especially in Scripture, three times or more – we should raise the “red flag.” It is important.
Men are told to love their wives three times: Ephesians 5:25,28,33. It is important.
To Love God surpassingly above all else is mentioned at least 10 times in Deuteronomy alone: 6:5, 10:12, 11:1, 11:13, 11:22, 13:3, 19:9, 30:6, 30:16, 30:20 – and Christ tells us that it is the Great Commandment (Matt 22:37, Mark 12:30, Luke 10:27) ….
Truly, to love God absolutely is the most important message of all!
During the sermon, I took some notes that I was told to share. The influx started during the Lord's Prayer. I was examining the fruits of tree of life. I just looked up the verse and it's Rev 2:7 " He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God."
I've been eating Black Mission Figs today.
I printed a picture of the BA alter to meditate on and was looking at the lampstands. AR 43. 'And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands' signifies the New Church, which will be in enlightenment from the Lord out of the Word....'
I asked how we grow the Church because there are things in the Writings about Luther, Calvin and even Paul that are not really inviting. I went to a doctrinal class on 'Earths of the Universe' and completely lost faith, but returned eventually when things were ready.
The response was 'New Revelation Coming' The book of Job is in connected order now and can be read in the internal sense. It contains 'end times' Doctrine. We all have to discuss this to dig at a pristine meaning.
I then felt an identification with the Literal Sense and all of it's power. Read Jeremiah 24.
There are links on my profile page to audio sermons.
Blessings,
“Since it is quite obvious to me that the apostolic succession was completely off the rails by 334 BC,”
....And later corrected it 373 ad
This makes no sense from a historical Christian viewpoint!
I really would like to try and understand why people say these things.
Where were they “off” the rails?
Where were they on the rails?
Remember,for the first 300 plus years of Christianity they did not have full Bibles and they were being persecuted and tortured
Try and be specific and list who these people were who “were off the rails” as you say?
Show the “dogmatic” doctrines you think are “off the rails”
Do you believe that the Sacraments are doctrines of man?
I will use Eucharist as an example..
Can you show a time line to prove that Christians did not always believe in Christ,s true presence in the Eucharist?
I wish you Peace!
FWIW, read John chapter 6. I think it is very straightforward that Jesus is being figurative and not literal.
Also, if you read ICor. 11:24-26 one part that is always overlooked is verse 25 "In the same manner He also took the cup after supper,...IOW, Christians performed the Lord's Supper before and after the agape feast passing the bread before the meal and the wine after the meal in remembrance. Not the behavior expected from devout believers, if you believe they thought the wine and bread were transformed.
Dear friend, you do not interpret scripture correctly
Are calling every single Saint and early Church father heretics for believing the Eucharist was truly Christ.
Try and find one that did not believe this?
This went virtually unchallenged to the reformers came along 1500 plus years later.
Compare the lives of the reformers to the lives of the saints. Are you going to elevate the reformers above the Saints?
All of EC Fathers and Saints wrote extensively on Eucharist being Jesus truly present Body ,Blood ,Soul and Divinity. ALL of them!
Here is what the early Christians said...
“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110).
“For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.” Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66 (c. A.D. 110-165).
“[T]he bread over which thanks have been given is the body of their Lord, and the cup His blood...” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, IV:18,4 (c. A.D. 200).
“He acknowledged the cup (which is a part of the creation) as his own blood, from which he bedews our blood; and the bread (also a part of creation) he affirmed to be his own body, from which he gives increase to our bodies.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V:2,2 (c. A.D. 200).
“But what consistency is there in those who hold that the bread over which thanks have been given is the Body of their Lord, and the cup His Blood, if they do not acknowledge that He is the Son of the Creator of the world...” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, IV:18, 2 (c. A.D. 200).
“For the blood of the grape—that is, the Word—desired to be mixed with water, as His blood is mingled with salvation. And the blood of the Lord is twofold. For there is the blood of His flesh, by which we are redeemed from corruption; and the spiritual, that by which we are anointed. And to drink the blood of Jesus, is to become partaker of the Lord’s immortality; the Spirit being the energetic principle of the Word, as blood is of flesh. Accordingly, as wine is blended with water, so is the Spirit with man. And the one, the mixture of wine and water, nourishes to faith; while the other, the Spirit, conducts to immortality. And the mixture of both—of the water and of the Word—is called Eucharist, renowned and glorious grace; and they who by faith partake of it are sanctified both in body and soul.” Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, 2 (ante A.D. 202).
I will repost this again to help you understand.
It is from a previous post....
Why do you suppose Scripture puts focus on Bread and Wine then?
Genesis 14.17-20, says....
After his return from the defeat of Chedorlaomer and the kings who were with them, the king of Sodom went out to meet him at the Valley of Shaveh, (that is the King’s Valley). And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out BREAD and wine; he was priest of God Most High. And he blessed him and said,
“Blessed be Abram by God Most High,maker of heaven and earth;and blessed be God Most High,who has delivered your enemies into your hand!”
This is the first time in the Bible that anyone is addressed by the word coen, the Hebrew word for priest. As a “priest of God Most High,” Melchizedek “brought out bread and wine.”
What is the connection between his priesthood and those two offerings?
What about this....
Jesus said “Your ancestors ate manna in the wilderness and died...I am the living BREAD that came down from heaven...unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man you will not have life within you.”
Jesus was born in “Bethlehem” which, in Hebrew, literally means “house of Bread”
A manger was not a place where animals stayed. It was a trough where food was put to feed the animals. Mary laid Jesus in a place where food was placed
At the last supper, which was a passover meal, Jesus said “take this and eat it, this is my body.”
“I Am The BREAD of Life”
John 6:48
Scripture says “For indeed Christ our Passover was sacrificed for us. Therefore, let us keep this feast.” (1 Cor 5:7-8) This relates to Exodus 12:1-42. The Passover meal saved from the angel of death who was striking the first born children in Egypt. At a traditional Passover supper, the Jews ate the sacrificial lamb.
Paul is saying that this feast should continue. They don’t think that he was “re-sacrificing” Christ when he kept this feast.
We see the Eucharistic formula throughout Scripture. At table, Jesus takes . . . blesses . . . breaks . . . and gives the bread. He also took a cup of wine; after giving thanks to God, He gave it to His disciples saying, “This is My blood . . . of the [new] covenant.” Matthew 26:26-29; Mark 14:22-25; Luke 22:15-20. This is the same formula Jesus uses during the first Eucharistic celebration after the resurrection when He encountered two disciples on the road to Emmaus (see Luke 24:13-35). When the Corinthians drift from the proper Eucharistic formula, Paul corrects them.(1 Corinthians 11:23-29)
“Give us this day our daily bread.”
Matthew 6:11
This is from the prayer that Jesus taught us, the “Our Father”.
It means in totality, bread as food for our bodies and spiritual bread as food for our souls.
We are to continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God.
Every day in every place a clean oblation is offered.
What, or who, is the sacrifice and what is a clean oblation?
It is an offering of praise to GOD, in the Holy Eucharist, the Body, and the Precious Blood of Christ. The Catholic Church offers the sacrifice of praise to GOD all over the world, every day in the Mass.
It has replaced the bloody animal sacrifices of the Old Testament.
That is why it is called a clean oblation.In Matthew 26:26, didn’t Jesus take bread and say, “Take and eat; this is my body”?
And did he not beseech us to say in the Lords Prayer:
“Give us this day out daily bread”, (both physical for the body, and spiritual for the soul).
Matthew 6:11
How many non-Catholic ecclesial communities offer daily sacrifice, a clean oblation, as is clearly commanded for us to do by Holy Scripture?
How many do not even offer sacrifice?
“Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened.
For Christ, our paschal lamb, has been sacrificed.”
1Corinthians 5:7
“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.”
Ephesians 5:1-2
“I have received full payment, and more; I am filled, having received from Epaphroditus the gifts you sent, a fragrant offering, a sacrifice acceptable and pleasing to God.”
Philippians 4:18
Jesus Christ is the “food” which sustains the spiritual soul which lives forever. He is the “bread come down from heaven” as we saw in John chapter six.
Can a mere “symbol” sustain the spiritual soul to eternal life?
Since the manna was the type or symbol of the New Testament reality, that question can be answered by another basic rule of typology:
“An Old Testament type (symbol) never points to a New Testament symbol, but to a reality.”
So obviously the “food which endures to eternal life” cannot be a symbol, but a New Testament reality. It also cannot be a symbol, for another reason. It would violate yet a second basic rule of typology which we have previously discussed:
“The New Testament reality is far superior to the Old Testament type.”
So does this mean that Christ is sacrificed over and over again in the Eucharistic Celebration?
Again, what does Holy Scripture say?
“For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit;”
1Peter 3:18
“The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office; but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues for ever. Consequently he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them. For it was fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, blameless, unstained, separated from sinners, exalted above the heavens. He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people; he did this once for all when he offered up himself.”
Hebrews 7:23-27
Christ was sacrificed only once and for all time. He is both the High Priest and the victim.
Catechism of the Catholic Church # 1366
“The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit: (Christ), our Lord and God, was once and for all to offer himself to God the Father by his death on the altar of the cross, to accomplish there an everlasting redemption. But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper ‘on the night when he was betrayed,’ (he wanted) to leave to his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish once for all on the cross would be re-presented, its memory perpetuated until the end of the world, and its salutary power be applied to the forgiveness of the sins we daily commit.
(Council of Trent (1562): DS 1740; cf. 1 Cor 11:23; Heb 7:24,27.)”
We must remember that GOD is outside of time. Time is a measure of change for the things He has created. Since He never changes, He Himself is outside of time.
Consequently, everything from creation, and before, and for all eternity is now with GOD, including the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. It is a continuous, never ending sacrifice.
How can something that never ends be repeated?
God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.”
And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
Exodus 3:14
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
John 8:58
“And getting into a boat he crossed over and came to his own city. And behold, they brought to him a paralytic, lying on his bed; and when Jesus saw their faith he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven.” And behold, some of the scribes said to themselves, “This man is blaspheming.” But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, “Why do you think evil in your hearts? For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Rise and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he then said to the paralytic—”Rise, take up your bed and go home.” And he rose and went home. When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God, who had given such authority to men.”
Matthew 9:1-8
These classic verses graphically show the connection between healing of the body and healing of the soul. Jesus first cleansed the paralytic’s soul, and then He cleansed his body. Pay especial attention to the last line. To whom was authority given? Notice that the very last word in the verses is plural.
In summery
1. The body needs physical food in order to survive or else it will die.
2. The spiritual soul needs spiritual food in order to avoid spiritual death, the separation from GOD.
3. Spiritual food cannot be a symbolic gesture, simply because a mere symbol could not possibly feed the spiritual soul. Spiritual food is as much a reality as is physical food. It is the anti type of its Old Testament type of the manna in the desert. Recall that an O.T. type never points to a N.T. symbol.
4. Scripture tells us that there will be offered sacrifice every day in every place, a clean oblation.
How can symbolism of a sacrifice be a sacrifice in itself?
5. The bread come down from heaven, Jesus Christ, is that clean oblation, His sacrifice on the cross.
6. Jesus Christ was sacrificed once on the cross for all eternity.
7. Jesus Christ is both the High Priest and the victim, the Paschal Lamb of sacrifice.
8. Since He is High Priest forever (Heb 7:17), He is also the sacrificial Lamb forever (Rev 5:13-14).
9. Since GOD is outside of time, everything is now with Him. That one sacrifice at Calvary, which is always now for GOD, is made present for us during the Eucharistic celebration of the Mass.
10. The Mass is a re-presentation of that one sacrifice. We are re-presented at Calvary.
Here is another fact..
Every single Early Church Father(Not a single exception!) believed that Jesus is truly present in Eucharist
http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/father/a5.html
I like to use Saint Athanasius because
Surely , anyone who swears by Solo Scripture has to give credibility to Saint Anthanasis since he was the
first person to identify the same 27 books of the New Testament that are in use today
ST. ATHANASIUS
St. Athanasius was born in Alexandria ca. 295 A.D. He was ordained a deacon in 319 A.D. He accompanied his bishop, Alexander, to the Council of Nicaea, where he served as his secretary. Eventually he succeeded Alexander as Bishop of Alexandria. He is most known for defending Nicene doctrine against Arian disputes.,
“’The great Athanasius in his sermon to the newly baptized says this:’ You shall see the Levites bringing loaves and a cup of wine, and placing them on the table. So long as the prayers of supplication and entreaties have not been made, there is only bread and wine. But after the great and wonderful prayers have been completed, then the bread is become the Body, and the wine the Blood, of our Lord Jesus Christ. ‘And again:’ Let us approach the celebration of the mysteries. This bread and this wine, so long as the prayers and supplications have not taken place, remain simply what they are. But after the great prayers and holy supplications have been sent forth, the Word comes down into the bread and wine - and thus His Body is confected.”,
-”Sermon to the Newly Baptized” ante 373 A.D
If you condemn Saint Athanasius as a heretic then how can you trust your Bible?
I wish you a Blessed Day!
For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called [me] by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother. – Galatians 1:11-19
Again, I aver that many of the doctrines and traditions of men are harmless – like the time of the day the assembly will be held, the color of the carpets or what the minister/priest wears. And others are a waste of time, as Christ showed in Mark 7 concerning the washing of hands and dinnerware.
But some can be lethal. Christ railed against the Pharisees in Matthew 23 for such as these.
And even today we can see the lethal effects of the doctrines and traditions of men: physically (Koresh, Jim Jones, etc.) or worse, spiritually, especially when they turn hapless followers away from Jesus Christ, e.g. declaring instead that Jesus Christ is not Lord, not God enfleshed but merely a righteous man (Islam et al).
Or insidiously lethal, e.g. traditions that declare the blood of Christ inadequate, that wannabes must also do specified things to be saved thereby glorifying men over God (such as circumcision in Acts 15.)
So sensitive am I of the doctrines and traditions of men, I do not bother to listen to the messages of those ministries which are named after a mortal (Jimmy Swaggart ministries et al.)
stfassisi, this morning you ask in reference to the quote we were previously discussing:
By that one phrase alone, which was spoken in 373 AD, I can see that the assembly, which is to say, the succession - was completely “off the rails” at that time.
Obviously then, there is no assurance that all of the manuscripts of non-affiliated assemblies survived, especially perhaps those which would have claimed the Eucharist an abomination.
Today, here on the forum, you can see that not all Christians believe that Christ is present in the wine and the bread. And many here believe it is an abomination because they see it as sacrificing Christ again and again, which is contrary to the revelation of God and suggests that the blood of Christ once given was insufficient (Hebrews) .
As I have testified before, about half my family is Catholic. And I cannot imagine any of them thinking the Eucharist is sacrificing Christ again. Indeed, I’m very sure their response would be that Christ is present in the Eucharist in the same sense He was present in the burning bush, the tabernacle, the temple etc.
The rest of my family would say it is a symbolism to be acted out, like the prophets often communicated. Which is your point I believe, wmfights. That we are to do it in remembrance of Him, much like washing each other’s feet (but how few do that!)
And I – being the one who eschews all the doctrines and traditions of men – would throw up the caution flag for everyone, not to miss the most important part – that the Spirit of Christ indwells us, individually. (Romans 8, John 14-17, I Cor 2) We are His temple. (I Cor 3) Further, that John 6 must be Spiritually discerned – we are to take Christ in, make Him a part of us, feed on Him, the Living Word of God:
To God be the glory!
Thanks you for your kind exhortations and posts.
Blessings to you and yours.
Amen, dearest sister in Christ! Indeed, “don’t sweat the details.” God will draw us to what we need in His own good time. And He definitely knows what each of us needs. Patience, a desirous heart, and trust in Him are all one needs to bring to the table.... Jesus Christ, via the Holy Spirit, does the rest.
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Much appreciated.
God will draw us to what we need in His own good time. And He definitely knows what each of us needs. Patience, a desirous heart, and trust in Him are all one needs to bring to the table.... Jesus Christ, via the Holy Spirit, does the rest.
So very true. Sanctification is a walk.
= = =
Thank you for your encouragements and exhortations.
LUB
Scripture exhorts us to follow after peace.
I try to obey Scripture.
Thanks for the kindness of your exhortation.
Another most excellent post worth repeating:
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This morning, in reviewing my post from late last night, it occurred to me that I had omitted a very important passage which further illustrates the struggle among the earliest Christians, to keep the doctrines and traditions of men from encroaching upon the revelations of God the Father in Christ Jesus our Lord.
But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews’ religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: And profited in the Jews’ religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called [me] by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord’s brother. – Galatians 1:11-19
Paul, a Pharisee of the most zealous sort, once saved and knowing the risk of the traditions of men stayed away from the assembly altogether, instead learning directly from the Source. This passage is the assurance that the doctrines and traditions of men (which he knew so well) are not mixed into the revelations of God which Paul received and conveyed.
Again, I aver that many of the doctrines and traditions of men are harmless – like the time of the day the assembly will be held, the color of the carpets or what the minister/priest wears. And others are a waste of time, as Christ showed in Mark 7 concerning the washing of hands and dinnerware.
But some can be lethal. Christ railed against the Pharisees in Matthew 23 for such as these.
And even today we can see the lethal effects of the doctrines and traditions of men: physically (Koresh, Jim Jones, etc.) or worse, spiritually, especially when they turn hapless followers away from Jesus Christ, e.g. declaring instead that Jesus Christ is not Lord, not God enfleshed but merely a righteous man (Islam et al).
Or insidiously lethal, e.g. traditions that declare the blood of Christ inadequate, that wannabes must also do specified things to be saved thereby glorifying men over God (such as circumcision in Acts 15.)
So sensitive am I of the doctrines and traditions of men, I do not bother to listen to the messages of those ministries which are named after a mortal (Jimmy Swaggart ministries et al.)
stfassisi, this morning you ask in reference to the quote we were previously discussing:
Where were they “off” the rails?
As I explained in post 591, Athanasius’ salutation to Mary that she is “greater than any other greatness” is patently false and the worst possible Spiritual error a mortal can make. Only God the Father is greater than any other greatness. I offered Jesus’ words that the Father is greater than all.
By that one phrase alone, which was spoken in 373 AD, I can see that the assembly, which is to say, the succession - was completely “off the rails” at that time.
Where were they on the rails?
I have no confidence in any assembly of men. Conversely, I am confident that many individual members of the assembly over the millennia were still very much “on the rails” despite all the doctrines and traditions of men which encroached upon the revelations of God the Father in Jesus Christ, our Lord.
I will use Eucharist as an example.. Can you show a time line to prove that Christians did not always believe in Christ,s true presence in the Eucharist?
I wouldn’t even attempt to meet your challenge on principle. The Church preserved what it wanted to preserve and discarded what it disapproved of. The book of Enoch is a great example, the Jews hated it because it referred to Christ so they discarded it - and the Catholics hated it because it referred to angels and demons and they discarded it. This even though it is quoted in Scripture – the “rule” which is usually honored for determining what will be preserved or not. If it were not for the fragments found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, there would be no proof that it existed even though it was cherished by the Ethiopians who kept a version over the millennia which may or may not be faithful.
Obviously then, there is no assurance that all of the manuscripts of non-affiliated assemblies survived, especially perhaps those which would have claimed the Eucharist an abomination.
Today, here on the forum, you can see that not all Christians believe that Christ is present in the wine and the bread. And many here believe it is an abomination because they see it as sacrificing Christ again and again, which is contrary to the revelation of God and suggests that the blood of Christ once given was insufficient (Hebrews) .
As I have testified before, about half my family is Catholic. And I cannot imagine any of them thinking the Eucharist is sacrificing Christ again. Indeed, I’m very sure their response would be that Christ is present in the Eucharist in the same sense He was present in the burning bush, the tabernacle, the temple etc.
The rest of my family would say it is a symbolism to be acted out, like the prophets often communicated. Which is your point I believe, wmfights. That we are to do it in remembrance of Him, much like washing each other’s feet (but how few do that!)
And I – being the one who eschews all the doctrines and traditions of men – would throw up the caution flag for everyone, not to miss the most important part – that the Spirit of Christ indwells us, individually. (Romans 8, John 14-17, I Cor 2) We are His temple. (I Cor 3) Further, that John 6 must be Spiritually discerned – we are to take Christ in, make Him a part of us, feed on Him, the Living Word of God:
Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard [this], said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. – John 6:60-63
May God bless you all, in all your ways.
To God be the glory!
THANKS TONS FOR YOUR POST WHICH TOUCHES ME MOST DEEPLY.
The degree, depth, quality of your understanding are continuing to be a comfort and exhortation.
Thanks enormously.
Thanks much for your kind words and truths.
Show the “dogmatic” doctrines you think are “off the rails”
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It is often said that The NT refs to Christ’s brothers were about His Mates—the Apostles, cousins, uncles etc. While I find that’s hogwash on it’s face . . .
The following passage CLEARLY refers to 3 classes of individuals distinctly vs redundantly:
1. Apostles other than Paul who’s writing;
2. The Lord’s blood brothers by Mary;
3. Peter—who also has a wife.
Scripture doesn’t use words willy-nilly. They are there for a purpose. The 3 classes above are distinct and different classes in the grammar, in the logic, in the word choices. That’s simply the Biblical Truth.
Rationalizing-around, Rubber-Bibling-around about the basic Scriptural fact is well beyond insufficient foundation for any sort of meaningful BIBLICAL, CHRISTIAN doctrine or dogma
AND IS WELL OVER THE LINE into TRADITIONS OF MEN, if not doctrines of demons. imho, it is demonic to so blatantly pervert Scripture in support of a politically helpful doctrine of men.
Here’s some clear Scriptural proof, imho.
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1 Corinthians 9:5 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
[NIV at IBS] [International Bible Society] [NIV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]
5Don’t we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephas[a]?
Footnotes:
1. 1 Corinthians 9:5 That is, Peter
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1 Corinthians 9:5 (The Message)
The Message (MSG)
Copyright © 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson
[The Message at Navpress] [NavPress]
3-7I’m not shy in standing up to my critics. We who are on missionary assignments for God have a right to decent accommodations, and we have a right to support for us and our families. You don’t seem to have raised questions with the other apostles and our Master’s brothers and Peter in these matters.
= =
1 Corinthians 9:5 (Amplified Bible)
Amplified Bible (AMP)
Copyright © 1954, 1958, 1962, 1964, 1965, 1987 by The Lockman Foundation
[AMP at Lockman] [The Lockman Foundation] [Amplified at Zondervan] [Zondervan]
5Have we not the right also to take along with us a Christian sister as wife, as do the other apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephas (Peter)?
= =
1 Corinthians 9:5 (New Living Translation)
New Living Translation (NLT)
Holy Bible. New Living Translation copyright © 1996, 2004 by Tyndale Charitable Trust. Used by permission of Tyndale House Publishers.
[NLT at Tyndale] [Tyndale House Publishers, Inc.]
5 Don’t we have the right to bring a Christian wife with us as the other apostles and the Lord’s brothers do, and as Peter[a] does?
= =
1 Corinthians 9:5 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
[NKJV at Thomas Nelson] [Thomas Nelson, Inc.]
5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?
I have a minute and I should have pinged you to the post I sent to wmfights.
Here it is again. This should help you understand better
Why do you suppose Scripture puts focus on Bread and Wine then?
Genesis 14.17-20, says....
After his return from the defeat of Chedorlaomer and the kings who were with them, the king of Sodom went out to meet him at the Valley of Shaveh, (that is the King’s Valley). And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out BREAD and wine; he was priest of God Most High. And he blessed him and said...
“Blessed be Abram by God Most High,maker of heaven and earth;and blessed be God Most High,who has delivered your enemies into your hand!”
This is the first time in the Bible that anyone is addressed by the word coen, the Hebrew word for priest. As a “priest of God Most High,” Melchizedek “brought out bread and wine.”
What is the connection between his priesthood and those two offerings?
What about this....
Jesus said “Your ancestors ate manna in the wilderness and died...I am the living BREAD that came down from heaven...unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man you will not have life within you.”
Jesus was born in “Bethlehem” which, in Hebrew, literally means “house of Bread”
A manger was not a place where animals stayed. It was a trough where food was put to feed the animals. Mary laid Jesus in a place where food was placed
At the last supper, which was a passover meal, Jesus said “take this and eat it, this is my body.”
“I Am The BREAD of Life”
John 6:48
Scripture says “For indeed Christ our Passover was sacrificed for us. Therefore, let us keep this feast.” (1 Cor 5:7-8) This relates to Exodus 12:1-42. The Passover meal saved from the angel of death who was striking the first born children in Egypt. At a traditional Passover supper, the Jews ate the sacrificial lamb.
Paul is saying that this feast should continue. They don’t think that he was “re-sacrificing” Christ when he kept this feast.
We see the Eucharistic formula throughout Scripture. At table, Jesus takes . . . blesses . . . breaks . . . and gives the bread. He also took a cup of wine; after giving thanks to God, He gave it to His disciples saying, “This is My blood . . . of the [new] covenant.” Matthew 26:26-29; Mark 14:22-25; Luke 22:15-20. This is the same formula Jesus uses during the first Eucharistic celebration after the resurrection when He encountered two disciples on the road to Emmaus (see Luke 24:13-35). When the Corinthians drift from the proper Eucharistic formula, Paul corrects them.(1 Corinthians 11:23-29)
“Give us this day our daily bread.”
Matthew 6:11
This is from the prayer that Jesus taught us, the “Our Father”.
It means in totality, bread as food for our bodies and spiritual bread as food for our souls.
We are to continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God.
Every day in every place a clean oblation is offered.
What, or who, is the sacrifice and what is a clean oblation?
It is an offering of praise to GOD, in the Holy Eucharist, the Body, and the Precious Blood of Christ. The Catholic Church offers the sacrifice of praise to GOD all over the world, every day in the Mass.
It has replaced the bloody animal sacrifices of the Old Testament.
That is why it is called a clean oblation.In Matthew 26:26, didn’t Jesus take bread and say, “Take and eat; this is my body”?
And did he not beseech us to say in the Lords Prayer:
“Give us this day out daily bread”, (both physical for the body, and spiritual for the soul).
Matthew 6:11
How many non-Catholic ecclesial communities offer daily sacrifice, a clean oblation, as is clearly commanded for us to do by Holy Scripture?
How many do not even offer sacrifice?
“Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened.
For Christ, our paschal lamb, has been sacrificed.”
1Corinthians 5:7
“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.”
Ephesians 5:1-2
“I have received full payment, and more; I am filled, having received from Epaphroditus the gifts you sent, a fragrant offering, a sacrifice acceptable and pleasing to God.”
Philippians 4:18
Jesus Christ is the “food” which sustains the spiritual soul which lives forever. He is the “bread come down from heaven” as we saw in John chapter six.
Can a mere “symbol” sustain the spiritual soul to eternal life?
Since the manna was the type or symbol of the New Testament reality, that question can be answered by another basic rule of typology:
“An Old Testament type (symbol) never points to a New Testament symbol, but to a reality.”
So obviously the “food which endures to eternal life” cannot be a symbol, but a New Testament reality. It also cannot be a symbol, for another reason. It would violate yet a second basic rule of typology which we have previously discussed:
“The New Testament reality is far superior to the Old Testament type.”
So does this mean that Christ is sacrificed over and over again in the Eucharistic Celebration?
Again, what does Holy Scripture say?
“For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit;”
1Peter 3:18
“The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office; but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues for ever. Consequently he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them. For it was fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, blameless, unstained, separated from sinners, exalted above the heavens. He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people; he did this once for all when he offered up himself.”
Hebrews 7:23-27
Christ was sacrificed only once and for all time. He is both the High Priest and the victim.
Catechism of the Catholic Church # 1366
“The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit: (Christ), our Lord and God, was once and for all to offer himself to God the Father by his death on the altar of the cross, to accomplish there an everlasting redemption. But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper ‘on the night when he was betrayed,’ (he wanted) to leave to his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish once for all on the cross would be re-presented, its memory perpetuated until the end of the world, and its salutary power be applied to the forgiveness of the sins we daily commit.
(Council of Trent (1562): DS 1740; cf. 1 Cor 11:23; Heb 7:24,27.)”
We must remember that GOD is outside of time. Time is a measure of change for the things He has created. Since He never changes, He Himself is outside of time.
Consequently, everything from creation, and before, and for all eternity is now with GOD, including the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. It is a continuous, never ending sacrifice.
How can something that never ends be repeated?
God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.”
And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
Exodus 3:14
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
John 8:58
“And getting into a boat he crossed over and came to his own city. And behold, they brought to him a paralytic, lying on his bed; and when Jesus saw their faith he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven.” And behold, some of the scribes said to themselves, “This man is blaspheming.” But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, “Why do you think evil in your hearts? For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Rise and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he then said to the paralytic—”Rise, take up your bed and go home.” And he rose and went home. When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God, who had given such authority to men.”
Matthew 9:1-8
These classic verses graphically show the connection between healing of the body and healing of the soul. Jesus first cleansed the paralytic’s soul, and then He cleansed his body. Pay especial attention to the last line. To whom was authority given? Notice that the very last word in the verses is plural.
In summery
1. The body needs physical food in order to survive or else it will die.
2. The spiritual soul needs spiritual food in order to avoid spiritual death, the separation from GOD.
3. Spiritual food cannot be a symbolic gesture, simply because a mere symbol could not possibly feed the spiritual soul. Spiritual food is as much a reality as is physical food. It is the anti type of its Old Testament type of the manna in the desert. Recall that an O.T. type never points to a N.T. symbol.
4. Scripture tells us that there will be offered sacrifice every day in every place, a clean oblation.
How can symbolism of a sacrifice be a sacrifice in itself?
5. The bread come down from heaven, Jesus Christ, is that clean oblation, His sacrifice on the cross.
6. Jesus Christ was sacrificed once on the cross for all eternity.
7. Jesus Christ is both the High Priest and the victim, the Paschal Lamb of sacrifice.
8. Since He is High Priest forever (Heb 7:17), He is also the sacrificial Lamb forever (Rev 5:13-14).
9. Since GOD is outside of time, everything is now with Him. That one sacrifice at Calvary, which is always now for GOD, is made present for us during the Eucharistic celebration of the Mass.
10. The Mass is a re-presentation of that one sacrifice. We are re-presented at Calvary.
Here is another fact..
Every single Early Church Father(Not a single exception!) believed that Jesus is truly present in Eucharist
http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/father/a5.html
Off to Mass.
I wish you a Blessed Day
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