Posted on 02/18/2007 4:18:05 PM PST by kawaii
16 February 2007, 16:42 ROCOR criticizes the Constantinople Patriarchate for ‘perpetual interference’ in the Russian Orthodox Church’s affaires
Paris, February 16, Interfax - The problems in relationships between the Moscow Patriarchate and the Patriarchate of Constantinople arise because of the latter, Archbishop Mark of Berlin and Germany (Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia) said.
He said he meant Constantinople’s ‘perpetual interference in Russian affaires.’
‘Their interference has become large-scale since 1917, the year of the Bolshevik revolution, when they started meddling with the Russian matters, and it goes on in Estonia and Ukraine,’ the archbishop told the participants of the conference held earlier this week in Paris and engaged with issues of re-union of the Russian Orthodox Church’s two parts.
The archbishop expressed his hope that ‘those who were responsible for that would come to their senses and find in themselves enough strength to correct this untrue way.’
Well, K, Moscow and the ROCOR people always have the option of a schism; they're well practiced at that.
For another Russian Church attitude, this is an interesting article from the same website:
"Tallinn’s review of liberation from Nazis is a measure of hatred USA has for Russia – Andrey Kurayev"
http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=2614
The Russians are just using an old Soviet tactic: Make all those who oppose them look like fascists.
http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=2606
The Estonian Orthodox are better off under the EP than under the MP. Sad, but true.
K Orthodoxy had mentioned in council that bishops don't interfere into the matters of other local bishops in council almost before constaninople jumped 3 patriarchates to be called new rome...
greece has a huge pro communist movement btw.
sad but true.
i mean its not like the government is bowing to the greek church though and arresting whole monastaries for disagreeing with him.
"The Russians are just using an old Soviet tactic: Make all those who oppose them look like fascists."
The Cold War may be ramping up again. Aside from the Soviet period, and even then in part and probably for understandable if not laudable reasons, the Russian Church has always been closely connected with the Russian government and worked in tandem with those various governments. The same I suppose can be said about all state churches, at least in the past. This cuts both ways, though. On the one hand, a powerful state church, assuming it is truly Christian, can have a positive effect on state civil policy. On the other hand, it can also become a tool of distinctly secular state policy, to the detriment of the Faith and the particular church involved.
I must say I am concerned with what I am seeing from the Russian Church. It is increasingly identified with Putin and its pronouncements about the reunion with ROCOR all speak of a uniting of the Russian people with the Mother Church. That is of course true, but there are very, very large numbers of non Russians in ROCOR these days. One wonders what their position will be in a reconstituted "Russian club". It has taken Greek Orthodoxy and Antiochian Orthodoxy 100 years to begin, and I say again, begin, to move away from that sort of ethno-phyletism. The future of what are now ROCOR parishes in the West could become uncomfortable if they are seen as outposts of a resurgent, antagonistic Russia. Elsewhere I suppose there could be places where this would be attractive, maybe some places in the Middle East, but certainly not in Eastern Europe. Even the Serbs, who have the most to lose on account of the West right now and are looking to Russian support in the UN, voted with the the rest of the Orthodox in support of the EP's position as first among equals among the Orthodox and against the Russians at the Belgrade session of the Catholic/Orthodox dialogs. Likely that had more to do with keeping faith with the ancient canons than anything else, but decades under Russian lead/imposed communism may have had at least a little to do with it.
i'm increasingly concerned how the church of constainiple seems more inclined to prostelize foreign parishes and interfere in local matters of other patriarchs than to convert muslims (content with a few blocks in a muslim capital that used be an orthodox bastion).
btw the OCA is completly aligned with the MP and calling them ethnic is laughable K.
don't think that the Antiochians and other patriarchates are going to put up with the EP forever. The EP is aligning with the Pope, and the churhes splitting from the MP ARE MOURING THE NAZIS DEFEAT.
Wow I mean how papist can you get?
Americans, Englishmen, Serbs and Russians, allied against a patriarchate over a few city blocks which has professed papism for over 100 years interfering wily nilly over local patriachates?
keep in mind that the ecumenical patriarchate saw 1917 as an oppurunity to introduce the new calendar by WORKING WITH THE COMMUNIST GOVERNMENT TO MANDATE THE RUSSIANS FOLLOW SUIT.
here's some Englishmen's thoughts
MOSCOW THE THIRD ROME?
Russia's inner meaning and calling, the very purpose of her existence, her God-given destiny, is to gather the peoples of the world together, each with its own personality and particularity and culture, into the Church of Christ...The Soviet State exported its faith to the four corners of the earth. We might suppose that had Russia remained faithful to Christ, she would have exported another faith to those four corners. Instead of sending kalashnikovs to Africa and India, China and Central America, to Afghanistan and Vietnam, to Cuba and Korea, she would have sent Orthodox missionaries. She would not have translated the works of Lenin into a hundred tongues, but the service-books of the Church of Christ.
From 'The Saints of Russia and the Universality of Orthodoxy', November 1993, Pp. 267 and 272 in 'Orthodox Christianity and the English Tradition'.
Talks on the official restoration of communion are afoot between the Russian Orthodox Patriarchal Church in Moscow and the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia (ROCOR). The November visit to Moscow of an episcopal delegation from the Church Outside Russia (ROCOR), the Conference of 150 selected ROCOR clergy in the USA and the subsequent Council of ROCOR Bishops dedicated to this question indicate that both parts of the Russian Church are moving together. These events appear to have taken place with conciliatory declarations by both sides, each side asking for forgiveness for rash and ill-thought-out words and actions in the recent past.
Personal experience with the old Russian emigration in England and with Orthodoxy in Greece and France (1974-1983) and again in France (1983-1997), then as priest-in-charge of the only all-new Russian immigrant parish outside Russia in Lisbon (1992-97), and then since 1997 experience with a small multinational parish in England, has led me as an observer of these events to a number of thoughts.
First of all, it is clear that the hackneyed Cold War language of 'return to the Mother Church', 'absorption', 'liquidation', 'reunion with the Patriarchate' are irrelevant. (See the Declaration of Archbishop Mark at www.synod.com). We are talking about both parts of the Russian Church coming together in mutual repentance without politicking of any sort, their unity refound in Church Tradition.
Other terms have also been defined. The 2000 Statement by the Patriarchate clearly means that the erastian position of the Patriarchal Church, known by the name of Sergianism, has been dropped. The interference of the Russian State in the internal affairs of the Russian Church is no longer acceptable. The canonisation by the Patriarchate in 2000 of New Martyrs who condemned Sergianism and died for the Orthodox Faith makes this clear. Perhaps it still needs to be made even clearer by some even more formal statement from Moscow, so that doubters can understand this.
Perhaps also some statement on Ecumenism also needs to be issued by the Patriarchate. The word Ecumenism itself is notoriously difficult to define. Having anathematised the absurd Branch theory in 1983, ROCOR needs a clear statement from the Patriarchate on Ecumenism. The Patriarchal statement on Ecumenism that the Orthodox Church is the One True Church and that its ecumenical witness is purely missionary should reassure many. Its recent decision to cut off relations with Anglicans who justify the practice of homosexuality (See: www.mospat.ru) is also equally clear, as is the desire to continue to talk to orthodox Anglicans. But here there are doubts, for example with the recent actions of the heirs of the late Metropolitan Nikodim. But perhaps the errors of one particular bishop could be overlooked, if a clear statement against intercommunion were to be issued by the Patrairchate once and for all.
The recent letter of Metropolitan Kirill of Smolensk to the Greek Metropolitan Meliton against the secular position of the Patriarchate of Constantinople concerning the proposed anti-Christian EU Constitution suggest a very healthy appreciation by the Patriarchate of the situation in the Non-Orthodox Western denominations. His statement that we need to witness to Christ in order to save the last vestiges of Christian Faith in the West are very welcome and are in accord with the historic mission of the Russian Church. It is exactly what ROCOR has been doing for decades (See this site: 'An Alternative Constitution for the EU'). This ties in with the declaration of Patriarch Alexis himself that in Russia there is no such thing as a 'post-Christian society' (See www.radonezh.ru). Russia has been in a post-Christian society, it is now coming out of it: let the West which is entering a post-Christian society, learn from Russia (See our article on this site: 'Church, State and Society in Russia in the Twentieth Century').
On the other hand, it is also clear that the situation of the Patriarchate in a multi-ethnic and multi-religious State such as the Russian Federation must also be understood. It is inevitable that the Patriarchate has to deal with questions concerning relations with Islam, Judaism, Catholicism etc in a way that ROCOR simply does not. Perhaps a solution acceptable to both sides would be that the Patriarchate relinquish full membership of the World Council of Churches and adopt observer status, as other Local Orthodox Church have done. The advantages of membership of the WCC must now be virtually non-existent and the disadvantages overwhelming.
Then there is the question of more or less well-known controversies surrounding certain personalities within the Patriarchate. The fact is that during the Cold War and for many years after it, certain personalities both inside and outside Russia were allowed to commit immoral deeds. Many of us are all too painfully aware of the pastoral disasters within the Patriarchate as a result and have suffered hugely personally. Although now many of the personalities involved have either been removed or else have died, surely something better must be done than simply ignoring the consequences of these problems. There must be some in the Patriarchate who fear that the scandals will come out and be spattered across the pages of the Western media. This would do a disservice to all Orthodox. Apologies to all concerned, made in a Christian manner, would perhaps be enough and nobody would demand payment for damages. Let the Patriarchate everywhere behave as a mother, not as a stepmother, taking responsibility for its wayward children of the Cold War.
On the other hand, it is also true that the Patriarchate seems to be returning to the Tradition and canonical practices. The recent statement by Metropolitan Kirill that there would be no unthinkable change from the Orthodox to the Catholic calendar or change to using Russian in services are welcome (See www.radonezh.ru). The recent plea for a stavropegic parish from Patriarchal faithful in London has been dealt with a certain understanding (See this site: 'Old Problems Surface Anew at the Patriarchal Cathedral'). Orthodox souls have indeed not been understood. The recent and forthcoming Conferences in Moscow on Ecclesiology, gathering together serious representatives of other Local Orthodox Churches, indicates that the Patriarchate is taking up again its historic role as leader of World Orthodoxy, as before the Revolution (See www.mospat.ru, in particular regarding the Conference 'Russia and the Orthodox World' in February 2004). If we could all see an end to uncanonical practices and ordinations, weddings on Saturdays, cremations, the restoration of fasting, confession and the veneration of the New Martyrs and Confessors (as in the Patriarchal church in Dublin), this would further reinforce ROCOR confidence in the Patriarchate. It is difficult to take seriously Patriarchal churches outside Russia which refuse to have icons of the New Martyrs or sell the works of the ever-memorable Fr Seraphim Rose, works which are bestsellers inside Russia.
Perhaps the two parts of the Russian Church are indeed going to come together in the next few months or years. There seems to be common ground that ROCOR should for the present time remain a single Autonomous Metropolia of the Russian Church outside the Russian Federation, the model for this being the Autonomous Ukranian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate in the Ukraine (See www.russian-church.de). Possible in the distant future this would turn into different Metropolia (See our article on this site: 'The Path to R.O.M.E., R.O.M.A. and R.O.M.A.N.Z.'). The main difference would be that sacramental communion and concelebration would be restored. We can think back to ROCOR bishops like the ever-memorable Archbishop Antony of Geneva and Bishop Mitrofan of Boston and many others who sadly did not live long enough in this world to see this day that they would so much have wanted.
As mere observers, it is not possible to predict what will actually happen. Indeed the participants themselves do not know exactly the timescales ahead. But perhaps it is already possible to see that the Russian Orthodox Church is now at last beginning to start again where it was forced to leave off in 1917. After a tragic interruption of some three generations owing to savage atheist persecution, new worldwide perspectives are now opening up. Moscow is becoming a global Church, the dream of Moscow the Third Rome and Second Jerusalem is perhaps now less unreal. We await further events, but we must never forget the fates of both the First Rome and the Second Rome.
The First Rome lost its way because it forgot its martyrs and turned itself into a Caesaropapist State. The Second Rome lost its way because it forgot its Confessors and was willing to exchange its destiny of humility for a betrayal of the Faith. The Third Rome must do neither. In the long term it must found new Local Churches outside Russia, strengthening the Confederal, Trinitarian nature of the Family of Local Orthodox Churches, Unity in Diversity. A unified Russian Church of the Martyrs (inside Russia) and of the Confessors (outside Russia), a Church of Martyrdom and Confessordom, may be now the only bulwark in this world against the coming of Anti-Christ.
And now ye know what witholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work. (2 Thess. 2, 6-7).
Priest Andrew Phillips,
Seekings House,
Felixstowe,
England
30 Nov/13 December
Holy Apostle Andrew the First-Called
Yup, OK. When the rest of the Orthodox world is ready to accept the embrace of the Russain bear, then I'll worry. I don't see much point in continuing this conversation, K. Please don't ping me again on this or any other topic.
not at all they want to be under the yoke of muslims like the greeks.
i mean orthodox are just jumping to have to ask muslim rules when they can come and go right?
i'm waiting to see how world orthodoxy acts after the EP plants their flag in kosovo. i mean it's a perfect fit. if anyone knows how to go about the muslims' beck and call it's the EP.
They are not mourning the Nazis defeat. They are mourning a Soviet re-conquest of a once independent Estonia. They should mourn.
The Soviets were scum. Do you doubt that? The Nazis were scum too, of course, but they were the scum that chased out the Soviet scum and were thought of as allies against the much more frightening Soviet scum. Get the picture?
the growing pro nazi positions in estonia are no secret.
you'll note btw more Russian Christians were killed by Stalin than were Jews by the Nazis btw.
Calling ROCOR socialists would be laughable if it weren't vile.
the fact is that the EP is power grabbing and inviting every schismatic group that sends him a letter autocephaly.
How pathetic that a nation wanting to mourn its forced subservience under Communism is accused of celebrating Naziism.
acdtually it was estonians wearing swastikas in parades that helped promote that impression.
Mainstream Estonian Newspaper Accused of Inciting Antisemitism
http://www.fsumonitor.com/stories/030905Estonia.shtml
The article is biased enough from the false statement that: "Nazi Germany occupied Estonia and its Baltic neighbors at the start of World War II, and the three countries were forcibly incorporated into the Soviet Union at the close of the war, in 1945."
When in reality, it was the Soviets who occupied Estonia and its Baltic neighbors at the start of World War II, and it was Nazi Germany who chased the Soviets out and gave them back a measure of self-governance until the Soviets again came back in 1945.
So you favor censorship for all because of the actions of a few nuts?
Oh boy! Better hang that guy, eh? (/sarcasm)
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