+Gregory Palamas on Holy Icons (Catholic/Orthodox Caucus)

http://www.monachos.net/library/Gregory_Palamas%2C_On_the_Holy_Icons ^ | 14th Century | St. Gregory Palamas

[Kolokotronis]

Catholic/Orthodox Caucus ping

[reagandemocrat]

Nice post.

>>>and you should make the sign of the cross upon your person<<<

How do the Orthodox make the sign of the cross?

(I'm RCC--"In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit"-- while motioning right hand to forehead, then sternum, then left shoulder, right shoulder, hands together, "Amen")

Thank you in advance.

[Kolokotronis]

"How do the Orthodox make the sign of the cross?"

With the right hand, thumb, index finger and middle finger together, forehead, right shoulder, left shoulder.

We use it whenever the Trinity is mentioned, during the Trisagion, whenever the Most Holy Theotokos is mentioned, when specific saints are commemorated, when venerating icons or relics and of course to begin and end prayers or to respond to the blessings of the priest. We do it a lot!

[Klondike]

I am posting this from memory - please anyone correct me if I am mistaken - as my documentation is buried in my poor file. I believe that Pope Innocent III described the proper way to make the sign of the cross was from right shoulder to left as the Greeks do. I recall that the Spanish had a different custom (left shoulder to right) which became the Latin norm after the 12th Cent.
The early church I believe originally made three small crosses, forehead, lips, and chest as in the Latin Rite. Then there was the great cross, which instead of the chest one touched his feet.
They are all beautiful prayers which is a great way to proclaim the faith.

[Kolokotronis]

"Then there was the great cross, which instead of the chest one touched his feet."

We still do this, generally in front of an icon. We make the sign of the cross and then bow low enought to touch the floor with our right hand fingers. This is called a metania and is generally done three times in succession. There is also the practice of full body prostrations which are made after making the sign of the cross. Generally it is done during Great lent when we pray the Prayer of +Ephraim the Syrian. We look like a bunch of Mohammedans and in fact it is from this ancient Christian practice that the Mohammedans got their method of prayer.

[Klondike]

My new Son-in-law is new to this Catholic thing and the sign of the Cross is very strange to him. Since he is a high school baseball coach I have tried to expllain it as a signal from catcher to pitcher. He still isn't biting. He is just watching for now.

[Enosh]

We look like a bunch of Mohammedans and in fact it is from this ancient Christian practice that the Mohammedans got their method of prayer.

Dare I say that the practice comes from an older source: Judaism.

(By the way, I'd say you just sniped both Judaism and Islam, which knocks your "Closed Door" status off-scale low.)

[Tax-chick]

bump

[Kolokotronis]

"Dare I say that the practice comes from an older source: Judaism."

May well be; wouldn't surprise me in the least. Many Orthodox practices are very Jewish in both appearance and reality.

[NYer]

History of the Image of Divine Mercy
taken from Faustina's spiritual diary.

"In the evening, when I was in my cell, I saw the Lord Jesus clothed in a white garment. One hand [was] raised in the gesture of blessing, the other was touching the garment at the breast. From beneath the garment, slightly drawn aside at the breast, there were emanating two large rays, one red, the other pale. In silence I kept my gaze fixed on the Lord; my soul was struck with awe, but also with great joy. After a while, Jesus said to me,

"Paint an image according to the pattern you see, with the signature: Jesus, I trust in You. I desire that this image be venerated, first in your chapel, and [then] throughout the world."

[NYer]

History of the Image of Divine Mercy
taken from Faustina's spiritual diary.

"In the evening, when I was in my cell, I saw the Lord Jesus clothed in a white garment. One hand [was] raised in the gesture of blessing, the other was touching the garment at the breast. From beneath the garment, slightly drawn aside at the breast, there were emanating two large rays, one red, the other pale. In silence I kept my gaze fixed on the Lord; my soul was struck with awe, but also with great joy. After a while, Jesus said to me,

"Paint an image according to the pattern you see, with the signature: Jesus, I trust in You. I desire that this image be venerated, first in your chapel, and [then] throughout the world."

[kosta50]

Enosh to Kolo: (By the way, I'd say you just sniped both Judaism and Islam, which knocks your "Closed Door" status off-scale low.)

No really. Full prostrations, on both knees, face down to the ground, is associate with Muslim prayer even though its roots may very well be Judaic. Most western Christians would raise their eyebrows if they walked into an Orthodox church come during Great Lent and see people prostrate like that.

[Enosh]

All that stems from Genesis 32:24.

[Enosh]

"Genesis 32:24"

... which, by the way, is the meaning of "Israel"...

[kosta50]

All that stems from Genesis 32:24.

It does? How so?

[Enosh]

How so?

That was when we "Got our asses kicked in line", so to speak.

[kosta50]

That was when we "Got our asses kicked in line", so to speak

Did I miss something? We were talking about 'crossing the line' of a closed forum regarding a manner of worship that is (erroneously) associated with Muslim prayer.

You mentioned that this manner, practiced by the eastern Orthodox at Great Lent, is Judaic in origin to which both of us (Kolo and I) concented to be a possibility. To which you add biblical reference of Genesis 32:24 which says:

"So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak."

I don't see any connection in anything that you referenced or mentioned to the manner of worship we spoke of, or any clarification, let alone proof, of its origin.

Thanks for your participation, I think this discussion is closed.

[Kolokotronis]

Crossed the line? I guess I thought the comment was funny, Kosta! :)

You know, if one reads the Prayer of +Ephraim the Syrian, it sure reads like we deserve a good butt kicking!

This practice is quite new in my parish. None of us ever saw it growing up. To tell the truth, the first time I saw it, it was the converts who were doing it, along with the then new priest, and all we Greeks stood around snickering. You had to be there and as for our reaction, well, as you know, we are very bad people! :)

[Romulus]

I have tried to expllain it as a signal from catcher to pitcher. He still isn't biting.

He shouldn't. The Sign of the Cross isn't a way of "dialing God's phone number"; it's a reminder that we too must be crucified like Christ; that as members of the Mystical Body we embrace and rejoice in our crucifixion in Christ:

Romans 6:6 We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin.

1 Cor 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles,

1 Cor 2:2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Galatians 5:24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Galatians 6:14 But far be it from me to glory except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.