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Mary: She's not just for Catholics anymore
the-tidings.com ^ | Friday, December 15, 2006 | Patricia Zapor

Posted on 12/16/2006 12:59:51 PM PST by Zemo

Friday, December 15, 2006

Mary: She's not just for Catholics anymore

By Patricia Zapor

As publications from Time magazine to Christianity Today have discovered recently, Mary, the mother of Jesus, is not just for Catholics anymore.

Features on Mary are perennial favorites for editors looking for a religion-themed story before Christmas, and in the last few years many of these articles have focused on the increasing popularity of Mary among Protestants.

Marianist Father Thomas Thompson, editor of the Marian Library Newsletter at the University of Dayton in Ohio, points out that the expanding Protestant acceptance of Mary is based upon a strictly scriptural view of her, rather than on any change in Protestant theology.

Some Catholic doctrines about Mary, such as the Immaculate Conception --- the belief that she was conceived without sin --- remain controversial among Protestants, Father Thompson said. But as anti-Catholicism has waned among Protestants, the barriers to Episcopalians, Baptists and evangelicals turning to Mary have faded as well.

"We're very happy to see others taking an interest in Mary," he said.

Timothy George, dean of Beeson Divinity School at Samford University, a Baptist college in Birmingham, Ala., wrote recently that "it is time for evangelicals to recover a fully biblical appreciation of the Blessed Virgin Mary and her role in the history of salvation, and to do so precisely as evangelicals." George's comments appeared in the December 2003 issue of Christianity Today and in a 2004 collection of essays by various theologians, "Mary: Mother of God."

"We may not be able to recite the rosary or kneel down before statues of Mary, but we need not throw her overboard," George wrote.

In the magazine, he quoted an early 20th-century Southern Baptist New Testament scholar, A.T. Robertson, who said Mary "has not had fair treatment either from Protestants or Catholics." Robertson argued that while Catholics have "deified" Mary evangelicals have coldly neglected her.

"We have been afraid to praise and esteem Mary for her full worth," said George, citing Robertson, "lest we be accused of leanings and sympathy with Catholics."

George's article went on to explain historical, scriptural and theological reasons why Protestants should embrace Mary. "We need not go through Mary in order to get to Jesus," George concluded, "but we can join with Mary in pointing others to him."

Another recent book, "Blessed One," is a collection of 11 essays about Mary by Protestant scholars.

In their introduction, editors Beverly Roberts Gaventa and Cynthia L. Rigby, professors at Princeton Theological Seminary in New Jersey and Austin Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Texas, respectively, said their goal for the book was to help Protestants think in new ways about Mary, "blessing her and being blessed by her."

"She is a person of faith who does not always understand but who seeks to put her trust in God," they wrote.

For Muslims, on the other hand, Mary has always been a part of the picture.

John Alden Williams, professor emeritus in the humanities of religion at the College of William and Mary in Virginia, is a Catholic historian who has studied Islamic civilization and religion. He and fellow William and Mary professor James A. Bill published "Roman Catholics and Shi'i Muslims" in 2002.

It notes that two sections of the Quran, the sacred book of Islam, are devoted to Mary, known there as Maryam. She is recognized as the purified woman chosen to be the mother of the promised Messiah. Islam considers Jesus an important prophet, but not the incarnation of God.

Williams explained in a phone interview that, like Catholics, Shiite Muslims, who are a minority compared to the vastly more numerous Sunni Muslims, believe in intercessory prayer through saints and other holy people. That includes Mary, who is highly revered as a mediatrix between humans and God, or Allah. Sufis, another Islamic sect, also believe in intercession.

In Sunni Islam, "the whole idea of intercession is disputed," Williams said, "just as it is among Calvinist Protestants."

Among the differences the leaders of the Protestant Reformation had with the Catholic Church was the growth during the Middle Ages of devotion to Mary. Reformers argued that Jesus was the only mediator between God and mankind and that "exuberant Marian devotion seemed to them to threaten the clarity of the Gospel message of salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, through Christ alone," wrote Daniel L. Migliore, a theology professor at Princeton Theological Seminary, in his chapter in "Blessed One."

Muslims who seek Mary's intercession, on the other hand, see her in much the same way Catholics do, said Williams. While living in the Middle East, he said he witnessed several striking examples of the reverence many Muslims have for Mary.

At the Convent of Our Lady, an Orthodox church in Sednaya, Syria, he watched devout Muslims roll out prayer rugs to join Christians in reverencing an icon of Mary that is reputed to have been painted by St. Luke the Evangelist and believed to have the power to cure illnesses.

And in the late 1960s, many Muslims were among the millions who gathered in a Coptic Orthodox church in Egypt, hoping to catch a glimpse of reported Marian apparitions, he said. For more than a year starting in 1968, apparitions of Mary were reported over the domes of the Church of the Virgin Mary in the Zeitoun area of Cairo.

Williams went to the church once during that time and was surprised to see Muslims among the crowd, he said.

"I asked some people, 'Isn't it a little funny for you to be coming here to a Christian church?'" Williams said. They said they considered it only proper that Mary would appear at a church dedicated to her, but explained that they believed she was speaking to all Egyptians, not just Christians.

"They all saw it as a great sign of consolation after the war with Israel (in 1967) that God had not forgotten the people of Egypt."

---CNS


TOPICS: Ecumenism; General Discusssion; Religion & Culture; Worship
KEYWORDS: nomore; please; virginmary
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1 posted on 12/16/2006 12:59:54 PM PST by Zemo
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To: Zemo

343 replies over here http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1750886/posts


2 posted on 12/16/2006 1:06:20 PM PST by Dog Gone
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To: Dog Gone

My bad.


3 posted on 12/16/2006 1:08:32 PM PST by Zemo ('Anyone who is able to speak the truth and does not do so will be condemned by God.' - St. Justin)
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To: Zemo

Among Protestants, Mary has the same place in Scripture as all the Godly people who are mentioned. I find this article to be a little odd. Protestants aren't "cold" toward Mary any more than they are cold toward John the Baptist, Paul, etc. I've heard many sermons on Mary, mostly focusing on her faith and obedience.

The other thing I just don't understand is the definition of "Immaculate Conception." What does "conceived without sin" mean? I thought that "Immaculate Conception" meant that Mary's mother didn't conceive her via sexual intercourse. But, intercourse within marriage isn't sin, so I think I'm confused.


4 posted on 12/16/2006 1:10:27 PM PST by cantfindagoodscreenname (Is it OK to steal tag lines from tee-shirts and bumper stickers?)
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To: Zemo

I've done it, too, so I always try a couple of searches before posting.

Sometimes, especially with AP articles where each newspaper makes up its own headline, searching doesn't help. But it's always good to try.

Go bump the other thread. It's nearly the same thing as posting it again.


5 posted on 12/16/2006 1:11:59 PM PST by Dog Gone
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To: Zemo

imho, robbing, siphoning off adoration exclusively due The Lord Jesus

is not Christian of any sort--Romanist or evangelical or Eastern Orthodox or whatever.


6 posted on 12/16/2006 1:27:10 PM PST by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Quix
How is that position possible since the Orthodox church predates this protestant stance? You must then buy into the notion that the entire church was in error until the Protestants came along and that is logically untenable. The veneration of saints has been shown to be part of historic Christianity.

With that said I will not post any more replies to this sthreas because it is a duplicate and will continue any discussion in the other thread if you so wish.

7 posted on 12/16/2006 1:31:32 PM PST by Zemo ('Anyone who is able to speak the truth and does not do so will be condemned by God.' - St. Justin)
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To: Quix

It's more of a populist notion. In our increasing PC
social order women are supposed to be the model of all good.
Males are bad. Populist notions.

I give no creedance to Presbyterian ministry any longer.
Many of the mainline protestant churches have been infused
with liberal theology. There is little true bible teaching.


8 posted on 12/16/2006 1:38:07 PM PST by ChiMark
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To: ChiMark

Far too true.

Thx.


9 posted on 12/16/2006 1:39:53 PM PST by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Zemo
"At the Convent of Our Lady, an Orthodox church in Sednaya, Syria, he watched devout Muslims roll out prayer rugs to join Christians in reverencing an icon of Mary that is reputed to have been painted by St. Luke the Evangelist and believed to have the power to cure illnesses."

The devotion of the Mohammedans seen at the Seidnaya Monastery is truly astonishing. They come there for all sorts of reasons, especially to pray for the conception of a child or an easy and safe childbirth. These Mohammedans report miracle after miracle through her intercession. Some years back, three Syrian Air Force officers, all Mohammedans, were selected to spend some time on the Soviet space station Mir. Before they flew, they went to the monastery and spent the night in prayer before the icon referenced in the article. When they left the next day the nuns gave them a copy of the icon which they took with them into space. Upon their safe return, they brought the icon back to the nuns who display it in the visitors' reception room at the monastery.
10 posted on 12/16/2006 1:58:41 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: cantfindagoodscreenname
Among Protestants, Mary has the same place in Scripture as all the Godly people who are mentioned.

That should read "Among modern day protestants, ..." who have abandoned and quite frankly don't even know what Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, etc. taught and preached about the Blessed Virgin Mary.

"Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed." Luke 1:48

What does "conceived without sin" mean?

From the very instant of her animation, the infusion of soul into body, the Blessed Virgin Mary was preserved from the stain of original sin. That's what the Immaculate Conception means. Ineffabilis DeusOr as Luther himself wrote:

"It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin."
(Sermon: "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God," December [?] 1527; from Hartmann Grisar, S.J., Luther, authorised translation from the German by E.M. Lamond; edited by Luigi Cappadelta, London: Kegan Paul, Trench, Trubner, first edition, 1915, Vol. IV [of 6], p. 238; taken from the German Werke, Erlangen, 1826-1868, edited by J.G. Plochmann and J.A. Irmischer, 2nd ed. edited by L. Enders, Frankfurt, 1862 ff., 67 volumes; citation from 152, p. 58)

"She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin- something exceedingly great. For God's grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil."
(Luther, Personal {"Little"} Prayer Book, 1522)

so I think I'm confused.

Yes, you are.

11 posted on 12/16/2006 2:10:50 PM PST by A.A. Cunningham
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To: Zemo
Traditional Catholics, much as I disagree with them as a Protestant, go about Marian devotion in the right way.

Anything popular however, you should expect to be tainted with feminist overtones.

12 posted on 12/16/2006 2:12:23 PM PST by ikka
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To: ikka
I think that the Orthodox Christian devotions to Mary are a more acceptable form of veneration that a Protestant sensibility can accept. For some reason I find Protestants think Orthodox are more Marianists than Catholics and are surprised that the Orthodox veneration's match some Protestant notions - like no immaculate conception and so on.

Orthodox Christians do believe that Mary was without sin for her entire life, but they do not share the Catholic Church's views on original sin. They note that St. Augustine (d. 430), whose works were not well known in Eastern Christianity until after the 17th century, has exerted considerable influence over the theology of sin that has generally taken root through the Holy See, and since Eastern Orthodoxy does not share Rome's (or most Protestants') view of original sin, it considers unnecessary the doctrine that Mary would require purification prior to the Incarnation. Instead, Eastern Orthodox theologians suggest that the references among the Greek and Syrian Fathers to Mary's purity and sinlessness may refer not to an a priori state, but to her conduct after birth. Although this is not a dogma in the Orthodox Church, there is the universal belief that there was a pre-sanctification of Mary at the time of her conception, similar to the conception of Saint John the Baptist. However, there was no cleansing of original sin, since Orthodox Christians believe that one cannot inherit original sin, or any sin for that matter; instead, 'original sin' in Orthodoxy refers to the general tendency towards sin and pain in the world, caused by the fall of Adam.

13 posted on 12/16/2006 2:40:07 PM PST by Zemo ('Anyone who is able to speak the truth and does not do so will be condemned by God.' - St. Justin)
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To: Kolokotronis
The devotion of the Mohammedans seen at the Seidnaya Monastery is truly astonishing.

I am of the opinion they are Muslims whose Christian ancestors were forced to convert and over the centuries developed and held on to crypto-Christian practices.

Very much like the underground crypto-Christians of Japan who were outwardly Shintoists but maintained crypto-Christian practices.

14 posted on 12/16/2006 2:42:40 PM PST by Zemo ('Anyone who is able to speak the truth and does not do so will be condemned by God.' - St. Justin)
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To: Zemo

"I am of the opinion they are Muslims whose Christian ancestors were forced to convert and over the centuries developed and held on to crypto-Christian practices."

Not so crypto. Many of these people, though by no means all, are Alawites whom other Mohammedans call "Little Christians". I think you'll find that the veneration of icons among Syrian Mohammedans is very likely a cultural/religious remnant of their ancestral Christianity and Orthodox Christianity in Syria, still in pretty good shape considering conditions in the Middle East these days, was a major influence in Greater Syria until quite recently.


15 posted on 12/16/2006 2:53:12 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Zemo
I'm a Protestant, and I think we need to honor St. Mary. After all, God has chosen her to be the Mother of Lord. As long as we don't see her as co-redemptrix, it's okay by me.
16 posted on 12/16/2006 2:55:13 PM PST by paudio (WoT is more important than War on Gay Marriage!)
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To: Kolokotronis
I think you'll find that the veneration of icons among Syrian Mohammedans is very likely a cultural/religious remnant of their ancestral Christianity and Orthodox Christianity in Syria...

That was the point I was trying to make but your worded it better.

I also think, not to get off on a tangent, that the Shia beliefs may have arisen from communities of Zoroastrians and Christians who had come under the sword of Islam. I think one reason Iran adopted the Shia form of Islam was because her people who were once Christians adopted Shiaism as a substitute for Zorastrianism.

17 posted on 12/16/2006 2:57:13 PM PST by Zemo ('Anyone who is able to speak the truth and does not do so will be condemned by God.' - St. Justin)
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To: Zemo

Should read: I think one reason Iran adopted the Shia form of Islam was because her people who were once Zorastrians adopted Shiaism as a substitute for Zorastrianism.


18 posted on 12/16/2006 2:58:45 PM PST by Zemo ('Anyone who is able to speak the truth and does not do so will be condemned by God.' - St. Justin)
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To: Zemo; LibreOuMort; sionnsar

"I also think, not to get off on a tangent, that the Shia beliefs may have arisen from communities of Zoroastrians and Christians who had come under the sword of Islam. I think one reason Iran adopted the Shia form of Islam was because her people who were once Christians adopted Shiaism as a substitute for Zorastrianism."

I'm pinging a couple of Freepers who are knowledgable about Iran for comment.


19 posted on 12/16/2006 2:59:53 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis

Should read: I think one reason Iran adopted the Shia form of Islam was because her people who were once Zorastrians adopted Shiaism as a substitute for Zorastrianism.


20 posted on 12/16/2006 3:06:20 PM PST by Zemo ('Anyone who is able to speak the truth and does not do so will be condemned by God.' - St. Justin)
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