Posted on 10/24/2006 7:33:51 AM PDT by NYer
Give that bird a cigar, er, a piece of suet!
I would be quite surprised if the Catholic Church restored communion with the PNCC anytime soon.
Does one just not go to Mass? Is one excused from the Sunday Obligation? Or does, at some point, the persistent lack of an available Catholic church eventually move one to a place where one should be attending Orthodox Divine Liturgy in the interim?
Obviously, this is an extreme situation and in extreme situations, dispensations -- ekonomia for the Orthodox-- are readily granted in a per case basis, with the concurrence of local Orthodox authorities. A bishop, an Apostolic Administrator or a Vicar can grant this dispensation for sufficient pastoral reasons. The local Orthodox pastor may extend communion with permission from his own superiors.
I am confident that this has happened already and may be happening now in high-risk and/or hard-to-reach territories where there is not Latin presence but an Orthodox presence is already established.
-Theo
What a mess that parish is! All of my nightmares rolled up into one...
So you see, then, the confusion the term 'Catholic' in front of a Church's name can raise. What truly surprised me (I am beyond shock) was hearing that my former RC pastor (much beloved by the President of the K of C women's auxiliary) is assisting the priests of this parish. One of the other women (ignorant like so many Catholics) piped in with her statement of the evening: "So what if they are married. I believe priests should be allowed to marry". I tried to explain the history of priestly celibacy but she moved on to a new topic. /sigh/ How does one educate these Catholics?
One who does not know better or who does not explicitly adhere to the SSPX does indeed fulfill his Sunday obligation. I believe in the case of this article, an unsuspecting person who is traveling out of town and attends such a Mass bears zero culpability. This is a very clear cut case.
However, perhaps the Archdiocese was attempting to clarify the grayer cases in this regard. Until the TLM is made my widely available, I think the shades of gray remain. Many people who attend SSPX Masses are simply ignorant and cannot be fully faulted. In my own case, I am quite aware of the SSPX's standing, and I would find myself personally culpable if I were to attend an SSPX Mass, but I would not be so quick to assume that others attending those Masses are necessarily at fault.
Old Catholics are definitively and positively in schism, and have been so since 1870 at the close of Vatican I.
"I am confident that this has happened already and may be happening now in high-risk and/or hard-to-reach territories where there is not Latin presence but an Orthodox presence is already established."
I don't doubt this at all. In fact, in the Middle East it likely went on last Sunday...and with Maronite, Melkite and Orthodox Churches all open in the same town (they share catechism classes and teachers too)! 'Course, in some parts of the world, rules are made to be broken. :)
I was under the impression that the Church had, in some way, trademarked the term "Catholic." Here we have a Catholic school that is not affiliated with the diocese and it is not allowed to call itself Catholic for that reason. (It's totally orthodox) Is that just in this diocese, or is it just that this particular school is respecting the Church?
why thanks....I think.
I would give all of these stories which more credence if they were not usually complaining about CONSERVATIVE Catholicism. It seems that the majority of these stories in the mainstream press seem to have the unstated purpose of moving people away from Conservative practices by pointing out the Conservative groups which are not in Communion. There are perhaps many more examples of leftist abuses of Catholicism in this manner, but you almost never see these called to task (outside of the Conservative Catholic press). This seems to me to be nothing more than a backhanded way of supressing Orthodox Catholics.
It looks like they are getting their last licks in before the Pope allows greater usage of the old Latin Mass. Who will these writers use as their whipping-boy if the SSPX winds up returning to full Communion with the Church??
Ooops!! My mistake, "which more credence" should have read "much more credence". I wish there was a way to go back and correct all the mistakes in your posts after you post them.
There is also a some issues with the concept of Grace.
I was using them as an example to show that there are great differences in the distance our seperated Brethren have Theologically from us.
They are definitely closer that the Episcopagans...or Ted K. for that matter.
This level of intercommunion, though limited, do pose some interesting theological questions. If the RCC and the OC are allowing a limited number of their faithful to receive the sacraments in each other's Church, up to and including the Eucharist, then, are we really "two churches"? Are we "one" at one level but "two" on another? Isn't that like being "just a little bit pregnant"? IOW, nonsense?
Rome is not asking Orthodox priests to accept papal supremacy for them to minister to Catholics under these circumnstances; Orthodox are not forcing Catholics to convert before they receive the Eucharist from one of their priests.
What are we seeing here?
-Theo
" If the RCC and the OC are allowing a limited number of their faithful to receive the sacraments in each other's Church, up to and including the Eucharist, then, are we really "two churches"? Are we "one" at one level but "two" on another? Isn't that like being "just a little bit pregnant"? IOW, nonsense?
Rome is not asking Orthodox priests to accept papal supremacy for them to minister to Catholics under these circumnstances; Orthodox are not forcing Catholics to convert before they receive the Eucharist from one of their priests.
What are we seeing here?"
What we are seeing is a de facto, if not de jure, intercommunion but this isn't involving Roman Catholics. Its among the Orthodox, Melkites and Maronites. What it means is that especially the Melkites really are Orthodox in their theology and mindset already, and if they aren't fully Orthodox in their ecclesiology, they will be very, very soon. Just what the Maronites are up to is a puzzlement to me. My suspicion is that their relatively recent rediscovery of their ancient Eastern theological and liturgical heritage is leading them in the same direction as the Melkites.
If Roman Catholics and the Orthodox were doing this, I would agree, utter nonsense.
Your photos demonstrate what "full communion with Rome" can look like too often. This is not some unknown renegade priest in the photo, but a Cardinal. I wonder if God views these blended pagan ceremonies as being in "full communion" with Him and His Church.
I am sure somebody here will tell me I am wrong and that Canon 12345 allows for this nonsense or allows merry-go-round table/altars in 'special circumstances determined by the Bishop'. One day the implementers of this will face God regarding these ceremonies and citing Canon law won't be too helpful I speculate.
I prefer the Tridentine rite myself to this garbage.
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