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Problems with the 1962 Rite of Mass
Traditionalmass.org ^ | Most Rev. Daniel Dolan

Posted on 03/22/2006 2:47:32 PM PST by pravknight

The Pius X and John XXIII Missals Compared Most Rev. Daniel L. Dolan Missal of St. Pius X Missal of John XXIII 1.Promulgated by a canonized saint who condemned Modernism, and composed with the collaboration of absolutely orthodox priests both learned and pious.

1. Promulgated by a pope who admitted that he was suspect of Modernism, the same pope who called Vatican II to "consecrate ecumenism" and open up the windows of the Church to "renewal". Composed under the direction of Ferdinando Antonelli, who signed the document promulgating the New Mass, and under the direction of Annibale Bugnini, the "Great Architect" of the New Mass, notorious modernist and suspected Freemason.

2.Based upon sound traditional Catholic principles which were employed many times by the popes in the past. This missal was used by the Church from 1914 until the ascendancy of the Modernist "Liturgical Movement" in the 1950's.

2. Based upon the principles of the modernist "Liturgical Movement" often condemned in the past by the Roman Pontiffs, this missal was a transitional work. According to Father Bugnini it was a "compromise" until the liturgy could be made "a new city in which the man of our age can live and feel at ease." It was used for only four years.

3."Do not innovate anything; remain content with tradition." (Pope Benedict XIV)

3."it is a bridge which opens the way to a promising future." (Annibale Bugnini)

Prayers at the Foot of the Altar 4.Always said.

Prayers at the Foot of the Altar 4.Omitted on (1) The Purification after the Procession, (2) Ash Wednesday after the distribution of ashes, (3) Holy Saturday, (4) Palm Sunday after the Procession, (5) the four Rogation Days after the Procession, and (6) certain other Masses according the new rubrics of the Roman Pontifical.

The Collect 5. On days of lower rank, in addition to the collect of the day, the collects of Our Lady, Our Lady and All the Saints, Against the Persecutors of the Church, For the Pope, or For the Faithful Departed, etc. are recited.

The Collect 5.All these collects are abolished.

6. The commemorations of a lower ranking feast of a saint or a Sunday are made according to the rubrics.

6.The commemorations of a lower ranking feast of a saint or a Sunday are either abolished or strictly curtailed, so that on an ordinary Sunday most saints' feasts entirely disappear.

The Lessons on Ember Days 7.Always recited.

The Lessons on Ember Days 7.The bulk of the Lessons are optional.

The Epistle 8. Always read by the celebrant at Solemn Mass as specifically mandated by Pope St. Pius V.

The Epistle 8. The celebrant at Solemn Mass sits over on the side and listens instead, just as he does at the New Mass.

The Sequence 9. The Dies Irae must always be sung at a Requiem High Mass.

The Sequence 9. The Dies Irae at a daily Requiem High Mass is optional.

The Gospel 10.Always read by the celebrant at Solemn Mass as specifically mandated by Pope St. Pius V.

The Gospel 10. The celebrant at Solemn Mass listens instead

The Creed 11.Recited on many feasts according to the rubrics.

The Creed 11.Suppressed on many feasts (Doctors of the Church, St. Mary Magdalene, the Angels, etc.)

The Canon of the Mass 12.Unchanged since the time of Pope St. Gregory the Great.

The Canon of the Mass 12. The name of St. Joseph is inserted; thus the Canon is no longer the "unchanging rule" of worship.

The Communion of the People 13. The Confiteor, Misereatur, and Indulgentiam are always said before Holy Communion.

The Communion of the People 13. Abolished.

The Benedicamus Domino 14. Recited in place of Ite Missa Est on Sundays and Weekdays of Advent and Lent, Vigils, Votive Masses, etc.

The Benedicamus Domino 14.Abolished, except when there is a procession after Mass.

The Last Gospel 15. Either the beginning of St. John's Gospel or the proper Last Gospel of an occuring feast ends every Mass.

The Last Gospel 15.The proper Last Gospel is abolished with one exception. No Last Gospel at all is recited for: (1) the Third Mass of Christmas, (2) Palm Sunday, (3) Holy Thursday, (4) Holy Saturday, (5) any Mass followed by a procession, (6) Requiem Masses followed by the Absolution, and (7) certain other Masses according to the new rubrics of the Roman Pontifical.

Changes in Feasts 16. St. Peter's Chair in Rome Finding of the Holy Cross St. John Before the Latin Gate Apparition of St. Michael St. Leo II St. Anacletus St. Peter in Chains Finding of St. Stephen Commem. of St. Vitalis St. Philomena (by indult) St. Joseph, Patron of the Universal Church Circumcision of Our Lord St. Peter's Chair at Antioch Most Holy Rosary of the BVM St. George Our Lady of Mt. Carmel St. Alexius Ss. Cyriacus, Largus & Smaragdus Impression of Stigmata of St. Francis Ss. Eustace and Companions Our Lady of Ransom St. Thomas a Becket St. Sylvester Seven Sorrows of Our Lady

Changes in Feasts 16. Abolished Abolished Abolished Abolished Abolished Abolished Abolished Abolished Abolished Abolished Changed to St. Joseph the Worker Changed to Octave Day of Christmas Changed to St. Peter's Chair Changed to our Lady of the Rosary Downgraded Downgraded Downgraded Downgraded Downgraded Downgraded Downgraded Downgraded Downgraded Downgraded Octaves of Feasts 17. Epiphany (7th Century) Corpus Christi (1294) Ascension (8th Century) Sacred Heart (1928) Immaculate Conception (1693) Assumption (ca. 850) St. John Baptist (8th Century) Ss. Peter and Paul (7th Century) All Saints (ca. 1480) Nativity of Our Lady (1245) St. Stephen (8th Century) St. John the Evangelist (8th Century) Holy Innocents (8th Century) Dedication of a Church (8th Century)

Octaves of Feasts 17. Abolished Abolished Abolished Abolished Abolished Abolished Abolished Abolished Abolished Abolished Abolished Abolished Abolished Abolished Vigils of Feasts 18. Epiphany St. Matthias St. James St. Bartholomew St. Matthew All Saints St. Andrew Immaculate Conception St. Thomas Vigils of Feasts 18. Abolished Abolished Abolished Abolished Abolished Abolished Abolished Abolished Abolished

Miscellaneous Rubrics 19. Three tones of voice are used by the celebrant: audible, secret, and audible only to those at the altar.

Miscellaneous Rubrics 19.Third tone of voice is abolished.

20. When the celebrant is at the Epistle or Gospel side of the altar, he always bows to the cross at the center of the altar whenever he mentions the Holy Name.

20. Abolished.

The Holy Week Rites 21. Contains the Holy Week rites mandated by Pope St. Pius V.

The Holy Week Rites 21. Radically altered to such a degree that they are no longer the Holy Week rites of the Tridentine Missal. These rites, in fact, needed only cosmetic changes to fit the pattern of the New Mass in 1969.

FINAL NOTES :

(1) The Communion of the People: Some priests, who claim to adhere to the changes of John XXIII on the grounds of "papal authority" nevertheless refuse to suppress the Confiteor, Misereatur and Indulgentiam before the Communion of the people, as prescribed by John XXIII.

(2) The Last Gospel: Father Bugnini expressed the wish "of many" that the practice of reciting the Last Gospel be severely curtailed or suppressed altogether. He only had to wait for a few years.

(3) Changes in Feasts: Note the modernist prejudice against the cult of the saints and against feasts which refer to papal prerogatives or apparitions approved by the Church. During Lent, the John XXIII Missal suppresses most of the Masses of the saints.


TOPICS: Activism; Apologetics; Catholic; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; History; Mainline Protestant; Orthodox Christian; Prayer; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics; Religion & Science; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: catholic; mass; missal; orthodox; traditionalist; tridentine
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1 posted on 03/22/2006 2:47:35 PM PST by pravknight
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To: pravknight

I do think the older rites tend to have a more reverent feel and a better aesthetic then the newer. I hope to see the traditional rites grow in popularity amongst the faithful. However, I do believe the Novus Ordo is perfectly valid and can also be solemn and reverent if celebrated properly. And I think one of the reasons Tridentine masses tend to be more reverent is because of the tendecy of serious and traditional Catholics to gravitate towards them. If the Tridentine, hypothetically, was to become the norm again, you'd probably still see plenty of abuses, because the unorthodox, "progressive" priests, bishops, and laity who control so many of the parishes and dioceses would still control them even with a return of the Latin rite.


2 posted on 03/22/2006 7:46:31 PM PST by marsh_of_mists
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To: pravknight
The Canon of the Mass 12. The name of St. Joseph is inserted; thus the Canon is no longer the "unchanging rule" of worship.

Not necessarily. Since St. Bernardine of Siena and St. Teresa of Avila, devotion to St. Joseph had spread throughout the universal Church. Blessed Pius IX and Pope Leo XIII especially endorse this devotion. The "forgotten saint" was finally receiving the recognition he deserved. It really wasn't something that the radicals used for future changes.

3 posted on 03/22/2006 7:53:11 PM PST by Pyro7480 (Sancte Joseph, terror daemonum, ora pro nobis!)
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To: pravknight
HTML is your friend
(and in this case makes the article much easier to read)


traditionalmass.org | Traditional Latin Mass Resources


The Pius X and John XXIII Missals Compared

Most Rev. Daniel L. Dolan


Missal of St. Pius X
Missal of John XXIII
1.Promulgated by a canonized saint who condemned Modernism, and composed with the collaboration of absolutely orthodox priests both learned and pious.

1. Promulgated by a pope who admitted that he was suspect of Modernism, the same pope who called Vatican II to "consecrate ecumenism" and open up the windows of the Church to "renewal". Composed under the direction of Ferdinando Antonelli, who signed the document promulgating the New Mass, and under the direction of Annibale Bugnini, the "Great Architect" of the New Mass, notorious modernist and suspected Freemason.

2.Based upon sound traditional Catholic principles which were employed many times by the popes in the past. This missal was used by the Church from 1914 until the ascendancy of the Modernist "Liturgical Movement" in the 1950's.

2. Based upon the principles of the modernist "Liturgical Movement" often condemned in the past by the Roman Pontiffs, this missal was a transitional work. According to Father Bugnini it was a "compromise" until the liturgy could be made "a new city in which the man of our age can live and feel at ease." It was used for only four years.

3."Do not innovate anything; remain content with tradition." (Pope Benedict XIV)

3."it is a bridge which opens the way to a promising future." (Annibale Bugnini)

Prayers at the Foot of the Altar
4.Always said.

Prayers at the Foot of the Altar
4.Omitted on (1) The Purification after the Procession, (2) Ash Wednesday after the distribution of ashes, (3) Holy Saturday, (4) Palm Sunday after the Procession, (5) the four Rogation Days after the Procession, and (6) certain other Masses according the new rubrics of the Roman Pontifical.

The Collect
5.
On days of lower rank, in addition to the collect of the day, the collects of Our Lady, Our Lady and All the Saints, Against the Persecutors of the Church, For the Pope, or For the Faithful Departed, etc. are recited.

The Collect
5.
All these collects are abolished.

6. The commemorations of a lower ranking feast of a saint or a Sunday are made according to the rubrics.

6.The commemorations of a lower ranking feast of a saint or a Sunday are either abolished or strictly curtailed, so that on an ordinary Sunday most saints' feasts entirely disappear.

The Lessons on Ember Days
7.
Always recited.

The Lessons on Ember Days
7.
The bulk of the Lessons are optional.

The Epistle
8.
Always read by the celebrant at Solemn Mass as specifically mandated by Pope St. Pius V.

The Epistle
8.
The celebrant at Solemn Mass sits over on the side and listens instead, just as he does at the New Mass.

The Sequence
9.
The Dies Irae must always be sung at a Requiem High Mass.

The Sequence
9.

The Dies Irae at a daily Requiem High Mass is optional.

The Gospel
10.
Always read by the celebrant at Solemn Mass as specifically mandated by Pope St. Pius V.

The Gospel
10.
The celebrant at Solemn Mass listens instead

The Creed
11.
Recited on many feasts according to the rubrics.

The Creed
11.
Suppressed on many feasts (Doctors of the Church, St. Mary Magdalene, the Angels, etc.)

The Canon of the Mass
12.
Unchanged since the time of Pope St. Gregory the Great.

The Canon of the Mass
12.
The name of St. Joseph is inserted; thus the Canon is no longer the "unchanging rule" of worship.

The Communion of the People
13.
The Confiteor, Misereatur, and Indulgentiam are always said before Holy Communion.

The Communion of the People
13.
Abolished.

The Benedicamus Domino
14.
Recited in place of Ite Missa Est on Sundays and Weekdays of Advent and Lent, Vigils, Votive Masses, etc.

The Benedicamus Domino
14.
Abolished, except when there is a procession after Mass.

The Last Gospel
15.
Either the beginning of St. John's Gospel or the proper Last Gospel of an occuring feast ends every Mass.

The Last Gospel
15.
The proper Last Gospel is abolished with one exception. No Last Gospel at all is recited for: (1) the Third Mass of Christmas, (2) Palm Sunday, (3) Holy Thursday, (4) Holy Saturday, (5) any Mass followed by a procession, (6) Requiem Masses followed by the Absolution, and (7) certain other Masses according to the new rubrics of the Roman Pontifical.

Changes in Feasts
16.

St. Peter's Chair in Rome
Finding of the Holy Cross
St. John Before the Latin Gate
Apparition of St. Michael
St. Leo II
St. Anacletus
St. Peter in Chains
Finding of St. Stephen
Commem. of St. Vitalis
St. Philomena (by indult)
St. Joseph, Patron of the Universal Church
Circumcision of Our Lord
St. Peter's Chair at Antioch
Most Holy Rosary of the BVM
St. George
Our Lady of Mt. Carmel
St. Alexius
Ss. Cyriacus, Largus & Smaragdus
Impression of Stigmata of St. Francis
Ss. Eustace and Companions
Our Lady of Ransom
St. Thomas a Becket
St. Sylvester
Seven Sorrows of Our Lady

Changes in Feasts
16.

Abolished
Abolished
Abolished
Abolished
Abolished
Abolished
Abolished
Abolished
Abolished
Abolished
Changed to St. Joseph the Worker
Changed to Octave Day of Christmas
Changed to St. Peter's Chair
Changed to our Lady of the Rosary
Downgraded
Downgraded
Downgraded
Downgraded
Downgraded
Downgraded
Downgraded
Downgraded
Downgraded
Downgraded
Octaves of Feasts
17.

Epiphany (7th Century)
Corpus Christi (1294)
Ascension (8th Century)
Sacred Heart (1928)
Immaculate Conception (1693)
Assumption (ca. 850)
St. John Baptist (8th Century)
Ss. Peter and Paul (7th Century)
All Saints (ca. 1480)
Nativity of Our Lady (1245)
St. Stephen (8th Century)
St. John the Evangelist (8th Century)
Holy Innocents (8th Century)
Dedication of a Church (8th Century)

Octaves of Feasts
17.

Abolished
Abolished
Abolished
Abolished
Abolished
Abolished
Abolished
Abolished
Abolished
Abolished
Abolished
Abolished
Abolished
Abolished
Vigils of Feasts
18.

Epiphany
St. Matthias
St. James
St. Bartholomew
St. Matthew
All Saints
St. Andrew
Immaculate Conception
St. Thomas
Vigils of Feasts
18.

Abolished
Abolished
Abolished
Abolished
Abolished
Abolished
Abolished
Abolished
Abolished

Miscellaneous Rubrics
19.
Three tones of voice are used by the celebrant: audible, secret, and audible only to those at the altar.

Miscellaneous Rubrics
19.
Third tone of voice is abolished.

20. When the celebrant is at the Epistle or Gospel side of the altar, he always bows to the cross at the center of the altar whenever he mentions the Holy Name.

20. Abolished.

The Holy Week Rites
21.
Contains the Holy Week rites mandated by Pope St. Pius V.

The Holy Week Rites
21.
Radically altered to such a degree that they are no longer the Holy Week rites of the Tridentine Missal. These rites, in fact, needed only cosmetic changes to fit the pattern of the New Mass in 1969.

FINAL NOTES :

(1) The Communion of the People: Some priests, who claim to adhere to the changes of John XXIII on the grounds of "papal authority" nevertheless refuse to suppress the Confiteor, Misereatur and Indulgentiam before the Communion of the people, as prescribed by John XXIII.

(2) The Last Gospel: Father Bugnini expressed the wish "of many" that the practice of reciting the Last Gospel be severely curtailed or suppressed altogether. He only had to wait for a few years.

(3) Changes in Feasts: Note the modernist prejudice against the cult of the saints and against feasts which refer to papal prerogatives or apparitions approved by the Church. During Lent, the John XXIII Missal suppresses most of the Masses of the saints.


4 posted on 03/22/2006 8:16:52 PM PST by Dajjal
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
ping (if memory serves, you've commented on this subject before with Ultima Ratio)

I know feel safer with a pre-Pius XII Mass.

5 posted on 03/22/2006 8:22:00 PM PST by Dajjal
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To: narses; Pyro7480; murphE; Aquinasfan; Canticle_of_Deborah; Robert Drobot; ultima ratio; HDMZ; ...
ping to post# 4 (article in proper HTML)
6 posted on 03/22/2006 8:43:41 PM PST by Dajjal
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To: pravknight
Two related articles from the same website:

Pre-Vatican II Liturgical Changes: Road to the New Mass
Most Rev. Daniel L. Dolan>br> The modernist hand in the Pius XII and John XXIII liturgical changes that paved the way for the New Mass. Response to SSPX program to implement these changes in the U.S.
(The Roman Catholic. June 1983)

Liturgical Revolution
Rev. Francesco Ricossa
Details on the deficiencies of the 1955 Holy Week rites and the John XXIII reforms, including testimony from a conservative Vatican II liturgist on the bad effect of these reforms.
(The Roman Catholic. Feb-Apr 1987)
7 posted on 03/22/2006 8:54:40 PM PST by Dajjal
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To: Dajjal

I 100% support the pre-Pius XII Mass (and the pre-St. Pius X Breviary Psalter) as the basis for the Latin Liturgy.

This article is somewhat over the top and hyperbolic with all its Masons talk, but the basic points are well taken.

Annibale Bugnini, architect of the New Mess, was, along with Ferdanando Antonelli, architect of the Mess created by Pius XII and John XXIII, with all their supposed "restorations" by liturgical destruction and surpression. The various "reforms" of 1942, 1950, 1951, 1955, 1960, 1962, and 1963 were merely the first steps towards a process that with further "reforms" in 1964, 1965, 1967, 1969, 1972, 1974, 1979, etc. brought us to the liturgical catastrophe we have today of a sanctuary full of ordinary extraordinary Eucharistic ministerettes, girl altar boys, lectorettes, cantorettes, 1960's Jesuit tunes, no altar rail, elimination of the sanctuary, comedic stand-up routine homilies, Mess facing the people, "hide the tabernacle", wreckovation of Churches, Communion in the Paw, Communion standing, "no kneeling allowed", "no Latin allowed", "no benediction after Mass", "no Vespers in Church", "theme" (Clown, Biker Gang, Rock) Messes, destruction of fasting and abstinence, "confession available from 4pm to 4:15 pm Saturdays after a full moon", etc. These grotesqueries should not be viewed in isolation but seen as part of the total revolution accomplished by changing the Missal and Breviary and making traditional discipline a plaything of the Pope and his pointy-headed intellectual advisers. Please note the continual frequency of "reforms" of the Mass from the start of the Pius XII pontificate.

The Missal and Liturgy were in total flux based on a top-down imposition and experiment, with the final goal already in sight to those at the top, rather than being a rule of faith, grown from the bottom through incorporation and adoption of additional pieties brought forth by the "sensus fidelium" Christian people in their worship.

In the sense of this last point, I disagree with Bishop Dolan concerning the ENRICHMENT of the Missal, in what I see as the two sensible ADDITIONS made by John XXIII - adding St. Joseph to the Canon (as the people of the Church had been calling for for over 100 years), and adding additional prefaces to the Missal. I would also categorize the rubrical changes to the classification of feasts made to bring out the Temporal Cycle to precendence over the Sanctoral as a similarly motivated change - many people had been asking for this from good motives, and the rubrics on festal precendence were almost unintelligible, and required special annual calendars for the typical person to figure out; the problem as always was in the execution - by eliminating the extra collects and proper Last Gospel, commemoration of the minor Saints simply vanished during Lent, and the major Octaves when this change was made, which is bad.

Once viewed in this light, many of the things called for by the Fathers of Vatican II can similarly be seen as enriching - restoring a 3rd scripture lesson, restoration of the bidding prayers, ensuring a Homily every Sunday and feast day, clarification of the role of Priest vs. choir in the chants (unless the chants are given to the choir and thus the people, the people remain as disinterested spectators, and all the writing in the world won't get them to sing the proper chants as done in the rest of the Church, and the temptation then arises to add in obnoxious non-liturgical hymns for them), adding rubrics for the actions of the people during Mass, strengthening of the Lenten Fast by extending it to Holy Saturday.

No one should oppose enrichment, especially that which lengthens the abysmally short amount of time people spend in Church worshipping the Lord and learning the faith. Everyone should impose destruction, needless change, and outright error.


8 posted on 03/23/2006 6:04:23 AM PST by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Dajjal
St. Joseph, Patron of the Universal Church

Changed to St. Joseph the Worker

This seems to show the influence of Marxism within the church more explicitly than anything else except perhaps liberation theology.

9 posted on 03/23/2006 6:05:45 AM PST by TradicalRC (No longer to the right of the Pope...)
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
Everyone should impose destruction, needless change, and outright error.

Hermann you anarchist, you meant OPPOSE yes?

10 posted on 03/23/2006 6:10:46 AM PST by TradicalRC (No longer to the right of the Pope...)
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To: jrny

Ping to this thread


11 posted on 03/23/2006 6:19:07 AM PST by Pyro7480 (Sancte Joseph, terror daemonum, ora pro nobis!)
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To: TradicalRC
Everyone should impose destruction, needless change, and outright error.

Hermann you anarchist, you meant OPPOSE yes?

Whoops! Thanks!

12 posted on 03/23/2006 6:35:08 AM PST by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: TradicalRC

Especially the change of the feast to May Day.


13 posted on 03/23/2006 6:35:33 AM PST by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: pravknight

The fact that there are some traditionalists who reject the 1962 Missal is just further proof that these people are not really Catholic. That is, they do not think that the Church has the authority to change anything in the missal. This is false. The Church has always had the authority to change the "human elements" of the Mass (Mediator Dei, n. 50). Of course, one wonders how the Church could have had the authority to revise the missal in 1563 but not afterward. The extreme traditionalists are completely illogical.


14 posted on 03/23/2006 6:51:10 AM PST by steadfastconservative
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To: Hermann the Cherusker

Yes. Charitably, perhaps the church was trying to reach out to those who were looking to a political rather than a spiritual solution to problems.


15 posted on 03/23/2006 6:51:25 AM PST by TradicalRC (No longer to the right of the Pope...)
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Comment #16 Removed by Moderator

To: steadfastconservative; TradicalRC; Dajjal
The fact that there are some traditionalists who reject the 1962 Missal is just further proof that these people are not really Catholic.

I'm not Catholic because I don't like the 1955 and 1962 changes?

Of course, one wonders how the Church could have had the authority to revise the missal in 1563 but not afterward.

The revisions of 1563 were to excise useless accretions in the Propers, and eliminate abuses not covered by the rubrics. The Ordinary stayed the same, as did most rubrics, which in general were clarified to eliminate absues. And the revised Missal was not mandatory except on those who had been changing their Missals willy nilly, or where the Roman Missal was already used.

The Church has always had the authority to change the "human elements" of the Mass (Mediator Dei, n. 50).

The extent of this authority to impose new creations on all is questioned. Traditionally, Theologians held without censure that the Pope would become a schismatic were he to change all the Sacramental rites received from Tradition, which Paul VI did, because he would be alienating himself from the Church and Tradition.

The extreme traditionalists are completely illogical.

Not at all. But you aren't bothering to learn the position.

17 posted on 03/23/2006 8:09:49 AM PST by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Hermann the Cherusker

It is difficult to argue with Traditionalists because their arguments are inconsistent and illogical. Moreover, they disagree among themselves on many issues, including the validity of the 1962 missal, whether the see of Rome is vacant, etc. ad nauseum. If only it were possible to learn what the position of the traditionalists actually is.


18 posted on 03/23/2006 8:33:15 AM PST by steadfastconservative
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To: pravknight

Is this particular Bishop Dolan the head of the SSPV and thus a Sedevacantist?


19 posted on 03/23/2006 9:22:51 AM PST by Cheverus
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To: steadfastconservative

"It is difficult to argue with Traditionalists because their arguments are inconsistent and illogical."

Ok, I'll bite; give me ONE argument inconsistant/illogical.


20 posted on 03/23/2006 10:21:00 AM PST by Daffy
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