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Vatican change of heart over 'barbaric' Crusades
UK Times online ^ | March 20, 2006 | Richard Owen

Posted on 03/19/2006 6:44:46 PM PST by prairiebreeze

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To: Brad Cloven

It WAS more than that when you consider how many Jews they murdered along the way. Why did they have to do that?


61 posted on 03/19/2006 7:54:15 PM PST by Cinnamon Girl (OMGIIHIHOIIC ping list)
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To: F.J. Mitchell

The Crusades where prior to the Muslim forays into Europe.


62 posted on 03/19/2006 7:54:37 PM PST by Torie
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To: Torie
It is concentrated in the minds of certain Muslim men, who feel trapped by their own impotence, and imprisoned mentally by an inadequate eduction, that is unduly focused on a triumphalist and pugilistic interpretation of the the Koran, often from Mullahs financed by Saudi Arabia. Being urban and ungainful in meaningful economically productive activity is a facilitative condition, but not a necessary one.

Absolute horse puckey. Most of the terrorists are well financed and well educated. You just posted complete bs.
Oh, anyone can read the Qur'an and Hadiths. There is no mystery to them except why anyone in their right mind could follow such rubbish, unless they were brain washed from birth. Which we know by the books they use in their education system.

It's not nice to try to fool mother nature.
63 posted on 03/19/2006 7:56:33 PM PST by Sweetjustusnow ("You're either with us or with the terrorists." Time to live up to that statement Mr. President.)
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To: Cinnamon Girl

Most folks along the way, were slaughtered or dispersed. It was about taking booty. And the Crusadering armies by necessity lived on the land. The lines of resupply were non-existent.


64 posted on 03/19/2006 7:56:48 PM PST by Torie
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To: Torie

More crap. See the Byzantine Empire.


65 posted on 03/19/2006 7:57:13 PM PST by Sweetjustusnow ("You're either with us or with the terrorists." Time to live up to that statement Mr. President.)
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To: Sweetjustusnow

The leaders are well educated. That is always the case. The leaders are entreprenuers.


66 posted on 03/19/2006 7:58:15 PM PST by Torie
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To: Cinnamon Girl
Fair enough; you're historic knowledge exceeds mine. As you'll see elsewhere in this thread, I call out the Spanish Inquisition ("Nobody Expects the Spanish Inquisition!") as an excessive abuse of us Jews.

It was a nasty and brutish time. I just want some evenhandedness, so that the main point, "Islam attacks, Christianity counterattacks" is not transmogrified into "Christians' Murderous Crusades against the loving Muslims."

67 posted on 03/19/2006 7:58:33 PM PST by Uncle Miltie (The Prophet Muhammed, Piss Be Upon Him)
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To: Sweetjustusnow
Using words like crap and BS might serve some cathartic need that you have, they don't really facilitate a dialogue.
68 posted on 03/19/2006 8:00:19 PM PST by Torie
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Comment #69 Removed by Moderator

To: Brad Cloven

Or an Islam apology for anything, for that matter. Apology is apparently not a virture of the Islimeites.


70 posted on 03/19/2006 8:02:21 PM PST by F.J. Mitchell (President Bush isn't absolutely perfect,but he is absolutely less flawed than his critics .)
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To: Torie

You first have to have dialog based on facts and truth. Not propaganda. Propaganda provokes derision, as well it should.


71 posted on 03/19/2006 8:02:44 PM PST by Sweetjustusnow ("You're either with us or with the terrorists." Time to live up to that statement Mr. President.)
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To: Brad Cloven

In general I am in sympathy with the Jews and with Israel, but what happened in 1492 was far from one sided.

Ferdinand and Isabella presided over the final days of a struggle that lasted for many centuries: the Reconquista, to reconquer their country and drive the Moors out of Spain, after the Muslim invaders had conquered the entire country except for a few surviving free Spaniards in the mountains.

In 1492, Spain was still threatened by the Muslims of North Africa and by the Turkish fleets. Constantinople had fallen in 1453. Turkish pirates controlled much of the Mediterranean. The coasts of Spain and Italy were raided, and Christian slaves were taken.

Some of the Jews in Spain traded with the Turks. Some of them may have assisted the Turks in their raids and given them information. In the circumstances, a life and death struggle that had gone on for generations against terrible odds, it is understandable that the Spanish were worried about the dangers posed by a Jewish Fifth column. That was basically the reason why they expelled the Jews.

No doubt many or most of the Spanish Jews were innocent of the charge of betraying Spain. But the fears of the Spanish were understandable, I believe. I'm not altogether excusing what happened, but this side of the story is not usually told. The basic motivator was not religious bigotry or racial purity, but a well-founded hatred and fear of the Muslim enemy at the gates and an unwillingness to trust anyone who could not be absolutely relied on.


72 posted on 03/19/2006 8:03:27 PM PST by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: 4Moose4
How old was Mary at the "immaculate" conception?

If you're trying to infer that Joseph was a pedophile, you missed the boat.

I'm not Catholic (or a Christian for that matter) but according to the church's teachings the immaculate conception refers to the conception of Mary...not to the conception of her son.

Since the church teaches that life begins at conception, Mary's life began at the time of the immaculate conception.

73 posted on 03/19/2006 8:05:50 PM PST by peyton randolph (As long is it does me no harm, I don't care if one worships Elmer Fudd.)
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To: Cicero

Fair enough. That's more history than I knew.

I'm not a believer in intergenerational guilt. I like the Spanish just fine. Our community has a bad recollection of those events which will probabaly not be overcome by historic accuracy, since even in your account, the baby was thrown out with the bathwater.


74 posted on 03/19/2006 8:07:36 PM PST by Uncle Miltie (The Prophet Muhammed, Piss Be Upon Him)
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To: Cicero

Also, the Jews had money, which was confiscated by the Spanish state. That was a motivator too. The Spanish King was desperate for money.


75 posted on 03/19/2006 8:08:08 PM PST by Torie
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To: Brad Cloven
At the risk of offending my Christian friends, we Jews have a hard time understanding how a Jewish Husband and Wife failed to complete their marital responsibilities and consummate the marriage.

You'll only offend your Catholic Christian friends. According to us Protestants, Joseph and Mary did indeed consummate the marriage. Jesus had at least three brothers, James, Jude and Joses, mentioned in the New Testament and the phrase 'do not his sisters live among us?' Catholics say they were cousins/relatives.

Of course, we don't think Mary was "immaculately conceived," but we do believe in the Virgin birth.

Thus the Readers' Digest version of differences between Catholics & Protestants.

76 posted on 03/19/2006 8:10:04 PM PST by madison10
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To: madison10

Don't forget that the Orthodox agree with the Catholics.


77 posted on 03/19/2006 8:11:10 PM PST by Nihil Obstat
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To: Nihil Obstat
Okay. The Orthodox & Catholics. They're 'sort of' Catholic, right? ;)
78 posted on 03/19/2006 8:12:41 PM PST by madison10
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To: Cicero

Maybe you haven't seen that version of the story too much because it's a bunch of nonsense. Trying to say the Jews somehow brought their slaughter upon themselves is the same trash talk that's been going on for centuries. The Jews were kicked out of country after country, exploited, forced to leave without property, forbidden to own land or be in guilds in parts of Europe, and in the case of the Crusades, forced to convert or die, then becoming the focus of rage when their conversions were deemed phony (and you'd think the sword would convince them that Christianity was the best religion.) It was all so twisted and shameful. Best to face the truth of history and move on to the present day.


79 posted on 03/19/2006 8:16:45 PM PST by Cinnamon Girl (OMGIIHIHOIIC ping list)
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To: prairiebreeze
...the mistaken view had taken hold in the West as well as the Arab world that the Crusades were “an unprovoked attack by Europe on the Islamic world”. In reality, however, Christians had been persecuted after the Muslim conquest of Jerusalem.

The history revisionists will be deeply saddened.

80 posted on 03/19/2006 8:17:56 PM PST by Eagleami (Israeli Hero - Moses Hess - Communist Manifesto)
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