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Luther and Erasmus: The Controversy Concerning the Bondage of the Will
Protestant Reformed Theological Journal ^ | April 1999 | Garrett J. Eriks

Posted on 01/01/2006 4:48:03 PM PST by HarleyD

Introduction

At the time of the Reformation, many hoped Martin Luther and Erasmus could unite against the errors of the Roman Catholic Church. Luther himself was tempted to unite with Erasmus because Erasmus was a great Renaissance scholar who studied the classics and the Greek New Testament. Examining the Roman Catholic Church, Erasmus was infuriated with the abuses in the Roman Catholic Church, especially those of the clergy. These abuses are vividly described in the satire of his book, The Praise of Folly. Erasmus called for reform in the Roman Catholic Church. Erasmus could have been a great help to the Reformation, so it seemed, by using the Renaissance in the service of the Reformation.

But a great chasm separated these two men. Luther loved the truth of God's Word as that was revealed to him through his own struggles with the assurance of salvation. Therefore Luther wanted true reformation in the church, which would be a reformation in doctrine and practice. Erasmus cared little about a right knowledge of truth. He simply wanted moral reform in the Roman Catholic Church. He did not want to leave the church, but remained supportive of the Pope.

This fundamental difference points out another difference between the two men. Martin Luther was bound by the Word of God. Therefore the content of the Scripture was of utmost importance to him. But Erasmus did not hold to this same high view of Scripture. Erasmus was a Renaissance rationalist who placed reason above Scripture. Therefore the truth of Scripture was not that important to him.

The two men could not have fellowship with each other, for the two movements which they represented were antithetical to each other. The fundamental differences came out especially in the debate over the freedom of the will.

From 1517 on, the chasm between Luther and Erasmus grew. The more Luther learned about Erasmus, the less he wanted anything to do with him. Melanchthon tried to play the mediator between Luther and Erasmus with no success. But many hated Erasmus because he was so outspoken against the church. These haters of Erasmus tried to discredit him by associating him with Luther, who was outside the church by this time. Erasmus continued to deny this unity, saying he did not know much about the writings of Luther. But as Luther took a stronger stand against the doctrinal abuses of Rome, Erasmus was forced either to agree with Luther or to dissociate himself from Luther. Erasmus chose the latter.

Many factors came together which finally caused Erasmus to wield his pen against Luther. Erasmus was under constant pressure from the Pope and later the king of England to refute the views of Luther. When Luther became more outspoken against Erasmus, Erasmus finally decided to write against him. On September 1, 1524, Erasmus published his treatise On the Freedom of the Will. In December of 1525, Luther responded with The Bondage of the Will.

Packer and Johnston call The Bondage of the Will "the greatest piece of theological writing that ever came from Luther's pen."1 Although Erasmus writes with eloquence, his writing cannot compare with that of Luther the theologian. Erasmus writes as one who cares little about the subject, while Luther writes with passion and conviction, giving glory to God. In his work, Luther defends the heart of the gospel over against the Pelagian error as defended by Erasmus. This controversy is of utmost importance.

In this paper, I will summarize both sides of the controversy, looking at what each taught and defended. Secondly, I will examine the biblical approach of each man. Finally, the main issues will be pointed out and the implications of the controversy will be drawn out for the church today.

Erasmus On the Freedom of the Will

Erasmus defines free-will or free choice as "a power of the human will by which a man can apply himself to the things which lead to eternal salvation or turn away from them." By this, Erasmus means that man has voluntary or free power of himself to choose the way which leads to salvation apart from the grace of God.

Erasmus attempts to answer the question how man is saved: Is it the work of God or the work of man according to his free will? Erasmus answers that it is not one or the other. Salvation does not have to be one or the other, for God and man cooperate. On the one hand, Erasmus defines free-will, saying man can choose freely by himself, but on the other hand, he wants to retain the necessity of grace for salvation. Those who do good works by free-will do not attain the end they desire unless aided by God's grace. Therefore, in regard to salvation, man cooperates with God. Both must play their part in order for a man to be saved. Erasmus expresses it this way: "Those who support free choice nonetheless admit that a soul which is obstinate in evil cannot be softened into true repentance without the help of heavenly grace." Also, attributing all things to divine grace, Erasmus states,

And the upshot of it is that we should not arrogate anything to ourselves but attribute all things we have received to divine grace … that our will might be synergos (fellow-worker) with grace although grace is itself sufficient for all things and has no need of the assistance of any human will."

In his work On the Freedom of the Will, Erasmus defends this synergistic view of salvation. According to Erasmus, God and man, nature and grace, cooperate together in the salvation of a man. With this view of salvation, Erasmus tries to steer clear of outright Pelagianism and denies the necessity of human action which Martin Luther defends.

On the basis of an apocryphal passage (Ecclesiasticas 15:14-17), Erasmus begins his defense with the origin of free-will. Erasmus says that Adam, as he was created, had a free-will to choose good or to turn to evil. In Paradise, man's will was free and upright to choose. Adam did not depend upon the grace of God, but chose to do all things voluntarily. The question which follows is, "What happened to the will when Adam sinned; does man still retain this free-will?" Erasmus would answer, "Yes." Erasmus says that the will is born out of a man's reason. In the fall, man's reason was obscured but was not extinguished. Therefore the will, by which we choose, is depraved so that it cannot change its ways. The will serves sin. But this is qualified. Man's ability to choose freely or voluntarily is not hindered.

By this depravity of the will, Erasmus does not mean that man can do no good. Because of the fall, the will is "inclined" to evil, but can still do good. Notice, he says the will is only "inclined" to evil. Therefore the will can freely or voluntarily choose between good and evil. This is what he says in his definition: free-will is "a power of the human will by which a man can apply himself to the things which lead to eternal salvation." Not only does the human will have power, although a little power, but the will has power by which a man merits salvation.

This free choice of man is necessary according to Erasmus in order for there to be sin. In order for a man to be guilty of sin, he must be able to know the difference between good and evil, and he must be able to choose between doing good and doing evil. A man is responsible only if he has the ability to choose good or evil. If the free-will of man is taken away, Erasmus says that man ceases to be a man.

For this freedom of the will, Erasmus claims to find much support in Scripture. According to Erasmus, when Scripture speaks of "choosing," it implies that man can freely choose. Also, whenever the Scripture uses commands, threats, exhortations, blessings, and cursings, it follows that man is capable of choosing whether or not he will obey.

Erasmus defines the work of man's will by which he can freely choose after the fall. Here he makes distinctions in his idea of a "threefold kind of law" which is made up of the "law of nature, law of works, and law of faith." First, this law of nature is in all men. By this law of nature, men do good by doing to others what they would want others to do to them. Having this law of nature, all men have a knowledge of God. By this law of nature, the will can choose good, but the will in this condition is useless for salvation. Therefore more is needed. The law of works is man's choice when he hears the threats of punishment which God gives. When a man hears these threats, he either continues to forsake God, or he desires God's grace. When a man desires God's grace, he then receives the law of faith which cures the sinful inclinations of his reason. A man has this law of faith only by divine grace.

In connection with this threefold kind of law, Erasmus distinguishes between three graces of God. First, in all men, even in those who remain in sin, a grace is implanted by God. But this grace is infected by sin. This grace arouses men by a certain knowledge of God to seek Him. The second grace is peculiar grace which arouses the sinner to repent. This does not involve the abolishing of sin or justification. But rather, a man becomes "a candidate for the highest grace." By this grace offered to all men, God invites all, and the sinner must come desiring God's grace. This grace helps the will to desire God. The final grace is the concluding grace which completes what was started. This is saving grace only for those who come by their free-will. Man begins on the path to salvation, after which God completes what man started. Along with man's natural abilities according to his will, God works by His grace. This is the synergos, or cooperation, which Erasmus defends.

Erasmus defends the free-will of man with a view to meriting salvation. This brings us to the heart of the matter. Erasmus begins with the premise that a man merits salvation. In order for a man to merit salvation, he cannot be completely carried by God, but he must have a free-will by which he chooses God voluntarily. Therefore, Erasmus concludes that by the exercise of his free-will, man merits salvation with God. When man obeys, God imputes this to his merit. Therefore Erasmus says, "This surely goes to show that it is not wrong to say that man does something…." Concerning the merit of man's works, Erasmus distinguishes with the Scholastics between congruent and condign merit. The former is that which a man performs by his own strength, making him a "fit subject for the gift of internal grace." This work of man removed the barrier which keeps God from giving grace. The barrier removed is man's unworthiness for grace, which God gives only to those who are fit for it. With the gift of grace, man can do works which before he could not do. God rewards these gifts with salvation. Therefore, with the help or aid of the grace of God, a man merits eternal salvation.

Although he says a man merits salvation, Erasmus wants to say that salvation is by God's grace. In order to hold both the free-will of man and the grace of God in salvation, Erasmus tries to show the two are not opposed to each other. He says, "It is not wrong to say that man does something yet attributes the sum of all he does to God as the author." Explaining the relationship between grace and free-will, Erasmus says that the grace of God and the free-will of man, as two causes, come together in one action "in such a way, however, that grace is the principle cause and the will secondary, which can do nothing apart from the principle cause since the principle is sufficient in itself." Therefore, in regard to salvation, God and man work together. Man has a free-will, but this will cannot attain salvation of itself. The will needs a boost from grace in order to merit eternal life.

Erasmus uses many pictures to describe the relationship between works and grace. He calls grace an "advisor," "helper," and "architect." Just as the builder of a house needs the architect to show him what to do and to set him straight when he does something wrong, so also man needs the assistance of God to help him where he is lacking. The free-will of man is aided by a necessary helper: grace. Therefore Erasmus says, "as we show a boy an apple and he runs for it ... so God knocks at our soul with His grace and we willingly embrace it." In this example, we are like a boy who cannot walk. The boy wants the apple, but he needs his father to assist him in obtaining the apple. So also, we need the assistance of God's grace. Man has a free-will by which he can seek after God, but this is not enough for him to merit salvation. By embracing God's grace with his free-will, man merits God's grace so that by his free-will and the help of God's grace he merits eternal life. This is a summary of what Erasmus defends.

Erasmus also deals with the relationship of God's foreknowledge and man's free-will. On the one hand, God does what he wills, but, on the other hand, God's will does not impose anything on man's will, for then man's will would not be free or voluntary. Therefore God's foreknowledge is not determinative, but He simply knows what man will choose. Men deserve punishment from eternity simply because God knows they will not choose the good, but will choose the evil. Man can resist the ordained will of God. The only thing man cannot resist is when God wills in miracles. When God performs some "supernatural" work, this cannot be resisted by men. For example, when Jesus performed a miracle, the man whose sight returned could not refuse to be healed. According to Erasmus, because man's will is free, God's will and foreknowledge depend on man's will except when He performs miracles.

This is a summary of what Erasmus taught in his treatise On the Freedom of the Will. In response to this treatise, Luther wrote The Bondage of the Will. We turn to this book of Luther.

Luther's Arguments Against Erasmus

Martin Luther gives a thorough defense of the sovereign grace of God over against the "semi-Pelagianism" of Erasmus by going through much of Erasmus' On the Freedom of the Will phrase by phrase. Against the cooperating work of salvation defended by Erasmus, Luther attacks Erasmus at the very heart of the issue. Luther's thesis is that "free-will is a nonentity, a thing consisting of name alone" because man is a slave to sin. Therefore salvation is the sovereign work of God alone.

In the "Diatribe," Luther says, Erasmus makes no sense. It seems Erasmus speaks out of both sides of his mouth. On the one hand, he says that man's will cannot will any good, yet on the other hand, he says man has a free-will. Other contradictions also exist in Erasmus' thought. Erasmus says that man has the power to choose good, but he also says that man needs grace to do good. Opposing Erasmus, Luther rightly points out that if there is free-will, there is no need for grace. Because of these contradictions in Erasmus, Luther says Erasmus "argues like a man drunk or asleep, blurting out between snores, 'Yes,' 'No.' " Not only does this view of Erasmus not make sense, but this is not what Scripture says concerning the will of man and the grace of God.

According to Luther, Erasmus does not prove his point, namely, the idea that man with his free-will cooperates in salvation with God. Throughout his work, Luther shows that Erasmus supports and agrees with the Pelagians. In fact, Erasmus' view is more despicable than Pelagianism because he is not honest and because the grace of God is cheapened. Only a small work is needed in order for a man to merit the grace of God.

Because Erasmus does not take up the question of what man can actually do of himself as fallen in Adam, Luther takes up the question of the ability of man. Here, Luther comes to the heart of his critique of the Diatribe in which he denies free-will and shows that God must be and is sovereign in salvation. Luther's arguments follow two lines: first, he shows that man is enslaved to sin and does not have a free-will; secondly, he shows that the truth of God's sovereign rule, by which He accomplishes His will according to His counsel, is opposed to free-will.

First, Luther successfully defends the thesis that there is no such entity as free-will because the will is enslaved to sin. Luther often says there is no such thing as free-will. The will of man without the grace of God "is not free at all, but is the permanent prisoner and bondslave of evil since it cannot turn itself to good." The free-will lost its freedom in the fall so that now the will is a slave to sin. This means the will can will no good. Therefore man does and wills sin "necessarily." Luther further describes the condition of man's will when he explains a passage from Ezekiel: "It cannot but fall into a worse condition, and add to its sins despair and impenitence unless God comes straightway to its help and calls it back and raises it up by the word of His promise."

Luther makes a crucial distinction in explaining what he means when he says man sins "necessarily." This does not mean "compulsion." A man without the Spirit is not forced, kicking and screaming, to sin but voluntarily does evil. Nevertheless, because man is enslaved to sin, his will cannot change itself. He only wills or chooses to sin of himself. He cannot change this willingness of his: he wills and desires evil. Man is wholly evil, thinking nothing but evil thoughts. Therefore there is no free-will.

Because this is the condition of man, he cannot merit eternal life. The enslaved will cannot merit anything with God because it can do no good. The only thing which man deserves is eternal punishment. By this, Luther also shows that there is no free-will.

In connection with man's merit, Luther describes the true biblical uses of the law. The purpose of the law of God is not to show men how they can merit salvation, but the law is given so that men might see their sinfulness and their own unworthiness. The law condemns the works of man, for when he judges himself according to the law, man sees that he can do no good. Therefore, he is driven to the cross. The law also serves as a guide for what the believer should do. But the law does not say anything about the ability of man to obey it.

Not only should the idea of free-will be rejected because man is enslaved to sin, but also because of who God is and the relationship between God and man. A man cannot act independently of God. Analyzing what Erasmus said, Luther says that God is not God, but He is an idol, because the freedom of man rules. Everything depends on man for salvation. Therefore man can merit salvation apart from God. A God that depends on man is not God.

Denying this horrible view of Erasmus, Luther proclaims the sovereignty of God in salvation. Because God is sovereign in all things and especially in salvation, there is no free-will.

Luther begins with the fact that God alone has a free-will. This means only God can will or not will the law, gospel, sin, and death. God does not act out of necessity, but freely. He alone is independent in all He decrees and does. Therefore man cannot have a free-will by which he acts independently of God, because God is immutable, omnipotent, and sovereign over all. Luther says that God is omnipotent, knowing all. Therefore we do nothing of ourselves. We can only act according to God's infallible, immutable counsel.

The great error of free-willism is that it ascribes divinity to man's free-will. God is not God anymore. If man has a free-will, this implies God is not omnipotent, controlling all of our actions. Free-will also implies that God makes mistakes and changes. Man must then fix the mistakes. Over against this, Luther says there can be no free-will because we are under the "mastery of God." We can do nothing apart from God by our own strength because we are enslaved to sin.

Luther also understands the difficulties which follow from saying that God is sovereign so that all things happen necessarily. Luther states: "If God foreknows a thing, it necessarily happens." The problem between God's foreknowledge and man's freedom cannot be completely solved. God sovereignly decrees all things that happen, and they happen as He has decreed them necessarily. Does this mean that when a man sins, he sins because God has decreed that sin? Luther would answer, Yes. But God does not act contrary to what man is. Man cannot will good, but he only seeks after sinful lusts. The nature of man is corrupted, so that he is turned from God. But God works in men and in Satan according to what they are. The sinner is still under the control of the omnipotent God, "which means, since they are evil and perverted themselves, that when they are impelled to action by this movement of Divine omnipotence they do only that which is perverted or evil." When God works in evil men, evil results. But God is not evil. He is good. He does not do evil, but He uses evil instruments. The sin is the fault of those evil instruments and not the fault of God.

Luther asks himself the question, Why then did God let Adam fall so all men have his sin? The sovereignty of God must not be questioned, because God's will is beyond any earthly standard. Nothing is equal to God and His will. Answering the question above, Luther replies, "What God wills is not right because He ought or was bound, so to will, on the contrary, what takes place must be right because He so wills it." This is the hidden mystery of God's absolute sovereignty over all things.

God is sovereign over all things. He is sovereign in salvation. Is salvation a work of God and man? Luther answers negatively. God alone saves. Therefore salvation cannot be based on the merits of men's works. Man's obedience does not obtain salvation, according to Luther. Some become the sons of God "not by carnal birth, nor by zeal for the law, nor by any other human effort, but only by being born of God." Grace does not come by our own effort, but by the grace of Jesus Christ. To deny grace is to deny Jesus Christ. For Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Free-will says that it is the way, the truth, and the life. Therefore free-will denies Jesus Christ. This is a serious error.

God saves by His grace and Spirit in such away that the will is turned by Him. Only when the will is changed can it will and desire the good. Luther describes a struggle between God and Satan. Erasmus says man stands between God and Satan, who are as spectators waiting for man to make his choice. But Luther compares this struggle to a horse having two riders. "If God rides, it wills and goes where God goes…. If Satan rides, it wills and goes where Satan goes." The horse does not have the choice of which rider it wants. We have Satan riding us until God throws him off. In the same way, we are enslaved to sin until God breaks the power of sin. The salvation of a man depends upon the free work of God, who alone is sovereign and able to save men. Therefore this work in the will by God is a radical change whereby the willing of the soul is freed from sin. This beautiful truth stands over against Erasmus' grace, which gives man a booster shot in what he can do of himself.

This truth of the sovereignty of God in salvation is comforting to us. When man trusts in himself, he has no comfort that he is saved. Because man is enslaved to sin and because God is the sovereign, controlling all things according to His sovereign, immutable will, there is no free-will. The free-will of man does not save him. God alone saves.

The Battle of the Biblical Texts

The battle begins with the fundamental difference separating Luther and Erasmus in regard to the doctrine of Scripture. Erasmus defends the obscurity of Scripture. Basically, Erasmus says man cannot know with certainty many of the things in Scripture. Some things in God's Word are plain, while many are not. He applies the obscurity of Scripture to the controversy concerning the freedom of the will. In the camp of the hidden things of God, which include the hour of our death and when the last judgment will occur, Erasmus places "whether our will accomplishes anything in things pertaining to salvation." Because Scripture is unclear about these things, what one believes about these matters is not important. Erasmus did not want controversy, but he wanted peace. For him, the discussion of the hidden things is worthless because it causes the church to lose her love and unity.

Against this idea of the obscurity of Scripture, Luther defends the perspicuity of Scripture. Luther defines perspicuity as being twofold. The external word itself is clear, as that which God has written for His people. But man cannot understand this word of himself. Therefore Scripture is clear to God's people only by the work of the Holy Spirit in their hearts.

The authority of Scripture is found in God Himself. God's Word must not be measured by man, for this leads to paradoxes, of which Erasmus is a case in point. By saying Scripture is paradoxical, Erasmus denies the authority of God's Word.

Luther does not deny that some passages are difficult to understand. This is not because the Word is unclear or because the work of the Holy Spirit is weak. Rather, we do not understand some passages because of our own weakness.

If Scripture is obscure, then this opposes what God is doing in revelation. Scripture is light which reveals the truth. If it is obscure, then why did God give it to us? According to Luther, not even the difficult to understand doctrines such as the Trinity, the Incarnation, and the unpardonable sin are obscure. Therefore the issue of the freedom of the will is not obscure. If the Scripture is unclear about the doctrine of the will of man, then this doctrine is not from Scripture.

Because Scripture is clear, Luther strongly attacks Erasmus on this fundamental point. Luther says, "The Scriptures are perfectly clear in their teaching, and that by their help such a defense of our position may be made that our adversaries cannot resist." This is what Luther hoped to show to Erasmus. The teaching of Scripture is fundamental. On this point of perspicuity, Luther has Erasmus by the horns. Erasmus says Scripture is not clear on this matter of the freedom of the will, yet he appeals to the church fathers for support. The church fathers base their doctrine of the free-will on Scripture. On the basis of the perspicuity of Scripture, Luther challenges Erasmus to find even one passage that supports his view of free-will. Luther emphasizes that not one can be found.

Luther also attacks Erasmus when he says what one believes concerning the freedom of the will does not matter. Luther sums up Erasmus' position this way: "In a word, what you say comes to this: that you do not think it matters a scrap what any one believes anywhere, as long as the world is at peace." Erasmus says the knowledge of free-will is useless and non-essential. Over against this, Luther says, "then neither God, Christ, Gospel, faith, nor anything else even of Judaism, let alone Christianity, is left!" Positively, Luther says about the importance of the truth: "I hold that a solemn and vital truth, of eternal consequences, is at stake in the discussion." Luther was willing to defend the truth even to death because of its importance as that which is taught in Scripture.

A word must also be said about the differing views of the interpretation of Scripture. Erasmus was not an exegete. He was a great scholar of the languages, but this did not make him an able exegete. Erasmus does not rely on the Word of God of itself, but he turns to the church fathers and to reason for the interpretation of Scripture. In regard to the passage out of Ecclesiasticas which Erasmus uses, Luther says the dispute there is not over the teaching of Scripture, but over human reason. Erasmus generalizes from a particular case, saying that since a passage mentions willing, this must mean a man has a free-will. In this regard, Luther also says that Erasmus "fashions and refashions the words of God as he pleases." Erasmus was concerned not with what God says in His Word, but with what he wanted God to say.

Not only does Erasmus use his own reason to interpret Scripture, but following in the Roman Catholic tradition he goes back to the church fathers. His work is filled with many quotes from the church fathers' interpretation of different passages. The idea is that the church alone has the authority to interpret Scripture. Erasmus goes so far in this that Luther accuses Erasmus of placing the fathers above the inspired apostle Paul.

In contrast to Erasmus, Luther interprets Scripture with Scripture. Seeing the Word of God as inspired by the Holy Spirit, Luther also trusts in the work of the Holy Spirit to interpret that Word. One of the fundamental points of Reformed hermeneutics is that Scripture interprets Scripture. Luther follows this. When Luther deals with a passage, he does not take it out of context as Erasmus does. Instead, he examines the context and checks other passages which use the same words.

Also, Luther does not add figures or devise implications as Erasmus does. But rather, Luther sticks to the simple and plain meaning of Scripture. He says, "Everywhere we should stick to just the simple, natural meaning of the words, as yielded by the rules of grammar and the habits of speech that God has created among men." In the controversy over the bondage of the will, both the formal and material principles of the Reformation were at stake.

Now we must examine some of the important passages for each man. This is a difficult task because they both refer to so many passages. We must content ourselves with looking at those which are fundamental for the main points of the controversy.

Showing the weakness of his view of Scripture, Erasmus begins with a passage from an apocryphal book: Ecclesiasticas 15:14-17. Erasmus uses this passage to show the origin of the free will and that the will continues to be free after the fall.

Following this passage, Erasmus looks at many passages from the Old Testament to prove that man has a free-will. He turns to Genesis 4:6, 7, which records God speaking to Cain after he offered his displeasing sacrifice to God. Verse 7 says, "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? And if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door." Erasmus says that God sets before Cain a reward if he chooses the good. But if he chooses the evil, he will be punished. This implies that Cain has a will which can overcome evil and do the good.

From here, Erasmus looks at different passages using the word "choose." He says Scripture uses the word "choose" because man can freely choose. This is the only way it makes sense.

Erasmus also looks at many passages which use the word "if" in the Old Testament and also the commands of the Old Testament. For example, Isaiah 1:19,20 and 21:12 use the words "if … then." These conditions in Scripture imply that a man can do these things. Deuteronomy 30:14 is an example of a command. In this passage, Israel is commanded to love God with all their heart and soul. This command was given because Moses and the people had it in them to obey. Erasmus comes to these conclusions by implication.

Using a plethora of New Testament texts, Erasmus tries to support the idea of the freedom of the will. Once again, Erasmus appeals to those texts which speak of conditions. John 14:15 says, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." Also, in John 15:7 we read, "If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you." These passages imply that man is able to fulfill the conditions by his free-will.

Remarkably, Erasmus identifies Paul as "the champion of free choice." Referring to passages in which Paul exhorts and commands, Erasmus says that this implies the ability to obey. An example is I Corinthians 9:24,25: "Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible." Man is able to obey this command because he has a free-will.

These texts can be placed together because Luther responds to them as a whole. Luther does treat many of these texts separately, but often comes back to the same point. Luther's response to Genesis 4:7 applies to all of the commands and conditions to which Erasmus refers: "Man is shown, not what he can do, but what he ought to do." Similarly, Luther responds to Deuteronomy 30:19: "It is from this passage that I derive my answer to you: that by the words of the law man is admonished and taught, not what he can do, but what he ought to do; that is, that he may know sin, not that he may believe that he has any strength." The exhortations and commands of the New Testament given through the apostle Paul are not written to show what we can do, but rather, after the gospel is preached, they encourage those justified and saved to live in the Spirit.

From these passages, Erasmus also taught that man merited salvation by his obedience or a man merited punishment by his disobedience, all of which was based on man's ability according to his free-will. Erasmus jumps from reward to merit. He does this in the conditional phrases of Scripture especially. But Luther says that merit is not proved from reward. God uses rewards in Scripture to exhort us and threaten us so that the godly persevere. Rewards are not that which a man merits.

The heart of the battle of the biblical texts is found in their treatment of passages from the book of Romans, especially Romans 9. Here, Erasmus treats Romans 9 as a passage which seems to oppose the freedom of the will but does not.

Erasmus begins his treatment of Romans 9 by considering the hardening of Pharaoh's heart. He treats this in connection with what Romans 9:18 says, "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will, he hardeneth." To interpret this passage, Erasmus turns to Jerome, who says, "God hardens when he does not at once punish the sinner and has mercy as soon as he invites repentance by means of afflictions." God's hardening and mercy are the results of what man does. God has mercy "on those who recognize the goodness of God and repent…." Also, this hardening is not something which God does, but something which Pharaoh did by not repenting. God was longsuffering to Pharaoh, not punishing him immediately, during which Pharaoh hardened his heart. God simply gave the occasion for the hardening of his heart. Therefore the blame can be placed on Pharaoh.

Although Erasmus claims to take the literal meaning of the passage, Luther is outraged at this interpretation. Luther objects:

Showing the absurdity of what Erasmus says, Luther says that this view means that God shows mercy when He sends Israel into captivity because then they are invited to repent; but when Israel is brought back from captivity, He hardens them by giving them the opportunity of hardening in His longsuffering. This is "topsy-turvy."

Positively, Luther explains this hardening of the heart of Pharaoh. God does this, therefore Pharaoh's heart is necessarily hardened. But God does not do something which is opposed to the nature of Pharaoh. Pharoah is enslaved to sin. When he hears the word of God through Moses which irritates his evil will, Pharaoh's heart is hardened. Luther explains it this way:

In his consideration of Jacob and Esau in Romans 9, Erasmus denies that this passage speaks of predestination. Erasmus says God does not hate anybody from eternity. But God's wrath and fury against sin are revealed on Esau because He knows the sins he will commit. In this connection, when Romans 9 speaks of God as the potter making a vessel of honor and dishonor, Erasmus says that God does this because of their belief and unbelief. Erasmus is trying to deny the necessity of the fulfillment of God's decree in order to support the freedom of the will.

Once again, Luther objects. Luther defends the necessity of consequence to what God decrees. Luther says, "If God foreknows a thing, it necessarily takes place." Therefore, in regard to Jacob and Esau, they did not attain their positions by their own free-will. Romans 9 emphasizes that they were not yet born and that they had not yet done good or evil. Without any works of obedience or disobedience, the one was master and the other was the servant. Jacob was rewarded not on the basis of anything he had done. Jacob was loved and Esau was hated even before the world began. Jacob loved God because God loved him. Therefore the source of salvation is not the free-will of man, but God's eternal decree. Paul is not the great champion of the freedom of the will.

In defense of the literal meaning of Romans 9:21-23, Luther shows that these verses oppose free-will as well. Luther examines the passage in the context of what Paul is saying. The emphasis in the earlier verses is not man, but what God does. He is sovereign in salvation. Here also, the emphasis is the potter. God is sovereign, almighty, and free. Man is enslaved to sin and acts out of necessity according to all God decrees. Luther shows that this is the emphasis of Romans 9 with sound exegetical work.

After refuting the texts to which Erasmus refers, Luther continues to show that Scripture denies the freedom of the will and teaches the sovereignty of God in salvation. He begins with Romans 1:18 which says, "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness." Luther says this means all men are ungodly and are unrighteous. Therefore, all deserve the wrath of God. The best a man can do is evil. Referring to Romans 3:9, Luther proves the same thing. Both Jews and Greeks are all under sin. They will and do nothing but evil. Man has no power to seek after good because there is none that doeth good (Ps. 14:3). Therefore, men are "ignorant of and despise God! Here is unbelief, disobedience, sacrilege, blasphemy towards God, cruelty and mercilessness towards one's neighbors and love of self in all things of God and man." Luther's conclusion to the matter is this: man is enslaved to sin.

Man cannot obtain salvation by his works. Romans 3:20 says that by the works of the law no man can be justified in God's sight. It is impossible for a man to merit salvation by his works. Salvation must be the sovereign work of God.

Luther thunders against free-will in connection with Romans 3:21-16 which proclaims salvation by grace alone through faith.58 Free-will is opposed to faith. These are two different ways of salvation. Luther shows that a man cannot be saved by his works, therefore it must be by faith in Jesus Christ. Justification is free, of grace, and without works because man possesses no worthiness for it.

Finally, we notice that Luther points out the comprehensive terms of the apostle Paul to show that there is no free-will in man. All are sinners. There is none that is righteous, and none that doeth good. Paul uses many others also. Therefore, justification and salvation are without works and without the law.

Over against the idea of free-will stands the clear teaching of Scripture. Luther clearly exegetes God's Word to show this. In summary, the truth of predestination denies the free-will of man. Because salvation is by grace and faith, salvation is not by works. Faith and grace are of no avail if salvation is by the works of man. Also, the only thing the law works is wrath. The law displays the unworthiness, sinfulness, and guilt of man. As children of Adam we can do no good. Luther argues along these lines to show that a free-will does not exist in man. Salvation is by grace alone.

The Main Issues and Implications of Each View

Luther is not interested in abstract theological concepts. He does not take up this debate with Erasmus on a purely intellectual level. The main issue is salvation: how does God save? Luther himself defines the issue on which the debate hinges:

So it is not irreligious, idle, or superfluous, but in the highest degree wholesome and necessary, for a Christian to know whether or not his will has anything to do in matters pertaining to salvation…. This is the hinge on which our discussion turns, the crucial issue between us.

Luther finds it necessary to investigate from Scripture what ability the will of man has and how this is related to God and His grace. If one does not know this, he does not know Christianity. Luther brings this against Erasmus because he shows no interest in the truth regarding how it is that some are saved.

Although the broad issue of the debate is how God saves, the specific issue is the sovereignty of God in salvation. The main issue for Luther is that man does not have a free-will by which he merits eternal life, but God sovereignly saves those whom He has chosen.

Luther is pursuing the question, "Is God, God?" This means, is God the omnipotent who reigns over all and who sovereignly saves, or does He depend on man? If God depends on man for anything, then He is not God. Therefore Luther asks the question of himself: Who will try to reform his life, believe, and love God? His answer, "Nobody." No man can do this of himself. He needs God. "The elect, who fear God, will be reformed by the Holy Spirit; the rest will perish unreformed." Luther defends this truth so vigorously because it is the heart of the gospel. God is the sovereign God of salvation. If salvation depends on the works of man, he cannot be saved.

Certain implications necessarily follow from the views of salvation defended by both men. First, we must consider the implications which show the falsehood of Erasmus' view of salvation.

When Erasmus speaks of merit, he is really speaking as a Pelagian. This was offensive to Erasmus because he specifically claimed that he was not a Pelagian. But Luther rightly points out that Erasmus says man merits salvation. According to the idea of merit, man performs an act separate from God, which act is the basis of salvation. He deserves a reward. This is opposed to grace. Therefore, if merit is at all involved, man saves himself. This makes Erasmus no different from the Pelagians except that the Pelagians are honest. Pelagians honestly confess that man merits eternal life. Erasmus tries to give the appearance that he is against the Pelagians although he really is a Pelagian. Packer and Johnston make this analysis:

According to Luther, Erasmus does not succeed in moving closer to the Augustinian position. Instead, he cheapens the purchase of God's grace. Luther says:

The Pelagians base salvation upon works; men work for their own righteousness. But Erasmus has cheapened the price which must be paid for salvation. Because only a small work of man is needed to merit salvation, God is not so great and mighty. Man only needs to choose God and choose the good. God's character is tarnished with the teaching of Erasmus. This semi-Pelagianism is worse than Pelagianism, for little is required to earn salvation. As Packer and Johnston say, "that is to belittle salvation and to insult God."

Another implication of the synergistic view of salvation held to by Erasmus is that God is not God. Because salvation depends upon the free-will of man according to Erasmus, man ascribes divinity to himself. God is not God because He depends upon man. Man himself determines whether or not he will be saved. Therefore the study of soteriology is not the study of what God does in salvation, but soteriology is a study of what man does with God to deserve eternal life.

This means God's grace is not irresistible, but man can reject the grace of God. Man then has more power than God. God watches passively to see what man will do.

Finally, a serious implication of the view of Erasmus is that he denies salvation is found in Jesus Christ alone. In his Diatribe, Erasmus rarely mentions Jesus Christ. This shows something is wrong. This does follow from what Erasmus says. The emphasis for Erasmus is what man must do to be saved and not on what God has done in Jesus Christ. Therefore Jesus Christ is not the only way of salvation and is not that important.

Over against the implications of Erasmus' view are the orthodox implications of Luther's view. God is sovereign in salvation. God elects His people, He sent Jesus Christ, and reveals Jesus Christ only to His people. It is God who turns the enslaved wills of His people so that they seek after Him. Salvation does not depend upon the work of man in any sense.

The basis of salvation is Jesus Christ alone. Because man is enslaved to sin, He must be turned from that sin. He must be saved from that sin through the satisfaction of the justice of God. A man needs the work of Jesus Christ on the cross to be saved. A man needs the new life of Jesus Christ in order to inherit eternal life. The merits of man do not save because he merits nothing with God. A man needs the merits of Jesus Christ for eternal life. A man needs faith by which he is united to Christ.

The source of this salvation is election. God saves only those whom He elects. Those who receive that new life of Christ are those whom God has chosen. God is sovereign in salvation.

Because God is sovereign in salvation, His grace cannot be resisted. Erasmus says that the reason some do not believe is because they reject the grace which God has given to them. Luther implies that God does not show grace to all men. Instead, He saves and shows favor only to those who are His children. In them, God of necessity, efficaciously accomplishes His purpose.

Because man cannot merit eternal life, saving faith is not a work of man by which he merits anything with God. Works do not justify a man. Salvation is the work of God alone in Jesus Christ and through the Holy Spirit. Faith is a gift of God whereby we are united to Jesus Christ and receive the new life found in Him. Even the knowledge and confidence as the activity of faith are the gifts of faith.

Finally, only with this view of salvation that God is sovereign can a man have comfort that he will be saved. Because God is sovereign in salvation and because His counsel is immutable, we cannot fall from the grace of God. He preserves those who are His children. Erasmus could not have this comfort because he held that man determines his own salvation.

The Importance of This Controversy Today

Although this controversy happened almost five hundred years ago, it is significant for the church today. The error of "semi-Pelagianism" is still alive in the church today. Much of the church world sides with Erasmus today, even among those who claim to be "Reformed." If a "Reformed" or Lutheran church denies what Luther says and sides with Erasmus, they despise the reformation of the church in the sixteenth century. They might as well go back to the Roman Catholic Church.

This controversy is important today because many deny that Jesus Christ is the only way of salvation. A man can worship heathen gods and be saved. This follows from making works the basis of salvation. Over against this error, Martin Luther proclaimed the sovereignty of God in salvation. He proclaimed Jesus Christ as the only way of salvation. We must do the same.

The error of Pelagianism attacks the church in many different forms. We have seen that in the history of the Protestant Reformed Churches. The sovereignty of God in salvation has been attacked by the errors of common grace and a conditional covenant. Over against these errors, some in the church world have remained steadfast by the grace of God. God does not love all. Nor does He show favor to all men in the preaching of gospel. Erasmus himself said that God showed grace to all men and God does not hate any man. The Arminians said the same thing at the time of the Synod of Dordt. Yet, men who defend common grace claim to be Reformed. They are not.

Also, in this synergistic view of salvation, we see the principles of the bilateral, conditional covenant view which is in many "Reformed" churches. If God and man work together in salvation, then the covenant must be a pact in which both God and man must hold up each one's end of the agreement. Over against this we must proclaim the sovereignty of God in salvation especially in regard to the covenant. The covenant is not conditional and bilateral. God works unconditionally and unilaterally in the covenant of grace.

Finally, we must apply the truth of the sovereignty of God defended by Luther to ourselves. We could say there is a Pelagian in all of us. We know God sovereignly saves, but we often show by our practice that we proudly want to sneak a few of our works in the back door. We must depend upon God for all things.

May this truth which Martin Luther defended, the truth of the sovereignty of God in salvation, be preserved in the church.


TOPICS: History; Mainline Protestant
KEYWORDS: bondageofthewill; catholic; christalone; erasmus; faithalone; gracealone; luther; martinluther; protestant; reformation; savedbygracealone; scripturealone; solascriptura; thegoodnews
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
"Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee." -- Psalm 65:4

So beautifully soothing.

12,641 posted on 09/12/2006 12:38:43 AM PDT by AlbionGirl (Absence really is a more intense form of presence...)
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To: Forest Keeper
I always knew generally that there was some messy stuff in there, so I wondered how a claim of infallibility (even as intended) could be made.

All things are possible with man, FK. :)

12,642 posted on 09/12/2006 12:44:35 AM PDT by AlbionGirl (Absence really is a more intense form of presence.)
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To: wmfights
Was it "The Church" that formed the canon, or was it individuals who established the canon and "The Church" recognized it later? ... From what I can tell it was the Holy Spirit guiding individuals that created the canon we recognize and "The Church" came to recognize it after it was done.

Good history, thanks, and that's an excellent question, and I wish I had a great answer. :) As you're saying, it has always been my personal belief that whoever the assemblers of the canon were, they were under the same God-given inspiration as the original authors for that purpose. God left nothing to chance, and every book that is in our Bible is there only because God wanted it there. I do not think the Bible we have today is the result of the fortunate or unfortunate choices of men.

12,643 posted on 09/12/2006 1:21:58 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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To: HarleyD; annalex; AlbionGirl
That's interesting because if I had to choose an age that I would liked to have stopped at it would be 27. Perhaps it's the "magical" age when you feel the best and you're too stupid to know anything. :O)

LOL! Thank the GOOD LORD I didn't stop at 27...I got saved at 29!

When I get my new body I want it to be the one I had in about 4th grade. Here's why, mostly: I was stopped in downtown traffic the other day and just looking around at the people on the sidewalks while I waited for the light to change. Off to the left was the City Center, which has a raised and enlarged sidewalk above the streetside one. There were two children playing there, a boy and a girl. The girl was just at that age where, being clothed in a dress slightly too short for her, her new-growth legs showed to greater effect what a young thing she was. Do you know what I mean? She was especially cute! (I well remember being adamant not to give up the frilly full-skirted dresses of my toddler years!)

I watched as the boy took a running dive and landed face-up, skidding on the cement, laughing uproariously. The girl, with equal delight, ran and jumped right on top of him! Her little dress flew up and splayed out over the boy's chest and tummy when she landed, one leg on each side of him. If he'd been at all interested I'm sure he could've noticed the color of her undies.

But he wasn't "old enough" for that sort of thing yet in his thinking. He just put his skinny arms around her and hugged her tight while she giggled and wrestled him with her bare legs. And I thought within myself, and prayed, "Jesus, that's a picture of Heaven right there. Make me like that when I come into Your Kingdom."

12,644 posted on 09/12/2006 2:19:09 AM PDT by .30Carbine (May God Be The Glory!)
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To: AlbionGirl

Wow. That you are able to express these things with such love and reasonableness is testimony to the healing that Christ has wrought in thee. I praise Him for your witness.


12,645 posted on 09/12/2006 2:26:07 AM PDT by .30Carbine (May God Be The Glory!)
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To: blue-duncan
I like it. Reminiscent of Douglas Adams, and you know how many books he sold - 42, wasn't it?
12,646 posted on 09/12/2006 2:35:57 AM PDT by .30Carbine (May God Be The Glory!)
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To: AlbionGirl
we reviewed my life, I began to explain to Him the Mysteries of Life, and was shocked to find His questions simple and straightforward, unamenable to philosophical argument or wrangling.

I think that book's already written. They called it "Job." A bestseller, too. (;

12,647 posted on 09/12/2006 2:39:31 AM PDT by .30Carbine (May God Be The Glory!)
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To: Kolokotronis
Good example of "synergism"! :)

I marvel at how efficient Christianity can be sometimes! :)

12,648 posted on 09/12/2006 2:52:28 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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To: AlbionGirl; Dr. Eckleburg
I was, in fact, reading in "Job" this very morning! Beginning in chapter 33 I was reading through the counsel of Elihu - "He Is My God," his name means. I believe Elihu is an appearing of the preincarnate Christ, preparing the way, or mediating, the coming of God Himself - though others have disagreed with me on this.

"For God does speak—now one way, now another—
though man may not perceive it.
In a dream, in a vision of the night,
when deep sleep falls on men
as they slumber in their beds,
he may speak in their ears
and terrify them with warnings,
to turn man from wrongdoing
and keep him from pride,
to preserve his soul from the pit,
his life from perishing by the sword.
Or a man may be chastened on a bed of pain
with constant distress in his bones,
so that his very being finds food repulsive
and his soul loathes the choicest meal.
His flesh wastes away to nothing,
and his bones, once hidden, now stick out.
His soul draws near to the pit,
and his life to the messengers of death.

"Yet if there is an angel on his side
as a mediator, one out of a thousand,
to tell a man what is right for him,
to be gracious to him and say,
'Spare him from going down to the pit ;
I have found a ransom for him'-
then his flesh is renewed like a child's;
it is restored as in the days of his youth.
He prays to God and finds favor with him,
he sees God's face and shouts for joy;
he is restored by God to his righteous state.
Then he comes to men and says,
'I sinned, and perverted what was right,
but I did not get what I deserved.
He redeemed my soul from going down to the pit,
and I will live to enjoy the light.'

"God does all these things to a man—
twice, even three times-
to turn back his soul from the pit,
that the light of life may shine on him
."

I was considering these things in light of Jesus' Parable of the Soils. There are four soils in the parable, and One Good Seed, scattered on every soil. The "character" of the soil is the condition of men's hearts: good soil, shallow soil, rocky soil, weedy soil.

I was thinking how what man intends for evil, even what men profess is evil (as Job did), God uses FOR GOOD, for He is Good, and there is no evil in Him; He redeems everything!

I was thinking that the circumstances of our lives, every hard thing and all the harvest of sin, the pain and sorrow, the grief and loss - all these things are used of God to plow up the soil of men's hearts - and these things come to every man.

I believe God wants all men to be saved, and that Christ died for all. I believe we all start with uncircumcised hearts, "hardened clay" that must be tilled and fertilized and rained upon so that it may receive seed and produce a crop. "Land that receives the rain often falling on it, and that produces a crop useful to those who farmed it, receives the blessing of God (Heb. 6:7)." "He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust (Matt. 5:45)."

Likewise, even the lack of the rain may harden futher the one soil, and cause another to soften; the same condition producing various results:

"When I shut up heaven and there is no rain, or command the locusts to devour the land, or send pestilence among My people, if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land."
~2 Chronicles 7:13-14

Has the Lord of all the earth not created every man and called each one by name? Indeed, He has done so for the stars (Ps. 147:4), and if for them, surely has He done for those He gave His very life to save!

Jesus explained the Parable of the Soils in this way:

"This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.

"Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

"The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life's worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature.

"But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.

The God of all the earth has commanded: "Sow for yourselves righteousness, reap the fruit of unfailing love, and break up your unplowed ground; for it is time to seek the LORD, until he comes and showers righteousness on you."
~Hosea 10:12

This is why I believe the pot has no justification to say to the Potter, "Why have you made me thus?" For as Elihu testifies truthfully,



"God does all these things to a man—
twice, even three times-
to turn back his soul from the pit,
that the light of life may shine on him."

12,649 posted on 09/12/2006 3:23:53 AM PDT by .30Carbine (May God Be The Glory!)
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To: .30Carbine
Thanks .30, every once in a while I need to be reminded of that, the healing that Christ has wrought in me, that is.
12,650 posted on 09/12/2006 4:47:07 AM PDT by AlbionGirl (Absence really is a more intense form of presence.)
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To: blue-duncan; Dr. Eckleburg; AlbionGirl; .30Carbine
I have started my book and have the first paragraph pretty well down, what do you think?

"It was almost a dark and stormy night - not dark or stormy enough to be called that but just the kind of sweaty night -- actually not all that dark -- but more dusky or maybe overcast -- although technically it wasn't black or anything -- more like four day old chicken greese -- and to say "stormy" may be overstating things a bit, although the outside smelled like the floor in a men’s room -- and, truth be told, characterizing the time as night is a stretch as it was more in the late, late afternoon when the sun burrows into the horizon like a blood thirsty tick tunneling into..."

I'm having a real hard time figuring out what comes next. Maybe you can help.

I don't know, BD, what are the odds that you and I began our books EXACTLY the same way? This is TOO freaky. But as it happens, I actually have made it through a second paragraph. Let's see if it fits:

" ... when the sun burrows into the horizon like a blood thirsty tick tunneling into the armpit of a lonely dog, a panting and lonely dog, whose master never bothered to check for ticks because he never scratched.

Suddenly, a SHOT RANG OUT!!! But it really wasn't much of a ringing sound, more like when you take an old pair of pliers to a rusted tuning fork, bending it just so, and then hitting it against the lid of an oil drum half filled with leaded paint. Oh, I'll never forget that sound. It's a sound that reverberates deep into my memories, like when I held an ostrich against its will on a commercial truck scale. You never forget those memories, you never will.

And then, I turned around and saw ...."

That's as far as I've gotten so far. But I'll tell you what, I do smell collaboration here. :) "Blue Forest Publications", what do you think? :)

And all God's people said .......?

12,651 posted on 09/12/2006 4:52:26 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper

ROTFLOL! Whew! SO GOOD for the bones!


12,652 posted on 09/12/2006 5:16:39 AM PDT by .30Carbine (May God Be The Glory!)
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To: AlbionGirl
We drink in the rain!
12,653 posted on 09/12/2006 5:21:00 AM PDT by .30Carbine (May God Be The Glory!)
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To: Forest Keeper
When I say "important" I do not necessarily mean only that it was an "especially" important Biblical event. I also mean whether it was important in the way it interacts with other scripture. So, on that level, Jonah is important because Jesus speaks of him in a literal sense. As for the talking donkey, while I still take it literally, that might be a different story. :)

LOL!!! "Important"? "Especially"? What is behind all of this? HOW DOES the talking donkey interact with other Scripture? And Jonah? Jesus doesn't approve or deny the literal historical veracity of the story. He merely refers to it. If I refer to a Dilbert comic, does that mean I believe there are talking dogs??? Frankly, I don't "especially" see the "importance" of the "historical" "reality" of the "stories" :) What IS important is God's intent.

Regards

12,654 posted on 09/12/2006 5:45:00 AM PDT by jo kus (Humility is present when one debases oneself without being obliged to do so- St.Crysostom - Phil 2:8)
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To: kosta50
Certainly, the Emperor was not going to rule from scaffolding, and the capital was founded (cornerstones laid) one year before the Council.

I still think that the Nicean Council was held there in 325 because the Emperor happened to be there, not because the Christians living in the area were "more pure". That remains my thoughts on the matter.

A president of a local medical association is simply a representative, a spokesman for the whole professional group. He is elected by them and is their servant, not their lord. Moreover, his license is equally valid and confers upon him the same authority to practice "medicine and surgery" as the licenses of any the member of the group he represents. He gets the lime light and gets to sit in a special chair.

He is the one who is asked questions by reporters and he is the one who makes agreed-upon statements of the group. The group cannot bypass him, by he cannot set policy without the group. But one thing he is not supreme (superior) over any member by virtue of his office; he is not their lord.

I can agree with that as a simile of how we view the office of the Papacy. The association does nothing without the leader officially. And if a member of the association started talking about leeches as being better than balloon stents for clearing blocked arteries, then the leader has the "job" of refuting it authoritatively. The most effective style of leadership (from experiencing such entities as the UN and the US government) is not counciliar, but one where one man has some sort of monarchial control - but remaining answerable to others to some degree. Nothing really gets done in councils without some leader directing matters. The same style of leadership exists within the local diocese....The bishop is "king", but he is answerable to something else - the entire tradition of the Church.

No bishop can overrule another bishop.

Bishops have been removed from power all the time - by other bishops - either by the Bishop of Rome, or a council of Bishops acting in unity with the Bishop of Rome.

You spelled tradition with a capital "T" last time.

Oh. I don't think that St. Ignatius being ordained to be bishop by Peter is "T"radition. Sorry for the confusion.

Regards

12,655 posted on 09/12/2006 5:55:44 AM PDT by jo kus (Humility is present when one debases oneself without being obliged to do so- St.Crysostom - Phil 2:8)
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To: kosta50; Agrarian; annalex; jo kus; AlbionGirl; Kolokotronis; HarleyD; wmfights; Dr. Eckleburg; ...
"And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me?" {Act 8:30-31]

So, it is not God who gave him the faith but he received the faith by hearing the word of God through +Phillip. Yes, the eunuch was ready to receive and believe. In other words, his heart was converted and ready to receive but he could not believe until someone the word of God was preached to him (verses 35-37). So much for sola scriptura FK. :)

Well, if his heart was converted, Who did the converting? I'm saying God did, in accordance with Ezekiel 36:26. You probably disagree. However, why do you think this defeats sola scriptura? This SUPPORTS sola scriptura! :) What did the eunuch ask about? SCRIPTURE. What did Philip explain first? SCRIPTURE. What did Philip explain next? The GOSPEL, later to become scripture. Did Philip go into non-scriptural Tradition as far as we know? NO, he didn't. Philip only stuck to the "scripture" we have today. Sola Scriptura is vindicated. :)

And for good measure, let's throw in that, according to scripture, the eunuch was Baptized only as a believer. :) We know this because it was his idea, not Philip's.

12,656 posted on 09/12/2006 6:00:55 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper
You are saying that it is God's will that man's free will trumps God's will (that all men be saved) on this issue. You are not saying that man is more powerful than God or anything like that. I'm just pointing out the basic position.

It IS God's Will that man has free will. It IS God's Will that man CHOOSES. Thus, man having free will does not override God's initiative to allow man to choose. God is so transcendant and beyond man that He cannot possibly be overruled by man's free will choices, since He sees them through all time.

I do think that all it would take is one liberal Pope who is interested in "reconciling" the world's Catholics to approve of things like birth control, married priests, women priests, homosexual priests, stem cell research, and a host of other issues that would greatly change the Church.

Ah, I understand. Well, I have ultimate faith that the Spirit works through the office of the Papacy, so I don't believe that can possibly happen. There is no precedent for such an action and I have faith that it is God behind that.

Right now, American Catholic leaders are advocating completely disregarding the laws of the valid American government on the issue of illegal immigration.

Well, that is different then what you describe above. The Church does not subject itself to the laws of the state unless they happen to match the Church's. Thus, the Church will never consider abortion OK (unlike other Protestant organizations), despite it being perfectly legal in the US. Social justice is a concern of the Church, and we don't have it here in this country...The Church has written a number of documents on the issue recently, and it is perfectly in line with the Gospel. You HAVE read the story of the Good Samaritan? Well, in California, you can get in trouble for giving a glass of water to an illegal alien. Tell me, FK, WHO are you going to obey? God or man's laws? If we American Christians roll over and allow such idiotic laws to take effect, we are giving up our Christian values for the sake of secularism.

Regards

12,657 posted on 09/12/2006 6:04:40 AM PDT by jo kus (Humility is present when one debases oneself without being obliged to do so- St.Crysostom - Phil 2:8)
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To: Forest Keeper; kosta50; Agrarian; annalex; wmfights; Dr. Eckleburg
However, why do you think this [Acts 8:30-31] defeats sola scriptura? This SUPPORTS sola scriptura! :) What did the eunuch ask about? SCRIPTURE. What did Philip explain first? SCRIPTURE. What did Philip explain next? The GOSPEL, later to become scripture. Did Philip go into non-scriptural Tradition as far as we know? NO, he didn't. Philip only stuck to the "scripture" we have today. Sola Scriptura is vindicated. :)

Lots of presumptions here. "The Gospel, later to become Scriptures"? The words of Phillip are not recorded. All we know is that Phillip explained to the Egyptian because it is not understandable without the Apostolic Tradition as given by Phillip. "Did Philip go into non-Scriptural tradition...NO" We don't know that, either. Another presumption. The fact that Phillip baptized the man indicates that Apostolic Tradition was used, as the Bible doesn't give the ritual formula for how to baptize... Thus, in your rush to defend sola scriptura, you presume and ignore too much. The simple fact remains that one is not EXPECTED to pick up the Bible off the shelf and understand it - thus, the Word of God must be PREACHED to be effective. Sola Scriptura is certainly not defended here at all!

Regards

12,658 posted on 09/12/2006 6:13:59 AM PDT by jo kus (Humility is present when one debases oneself without being obliged to do so- St.Crysostom - Phil 2:8)
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To: Forest Keeper; jo kus; Agrarian; Kolokotronis; AlbionGirl
I immediately thought they must have been going after his ring. But then, I don't even know if Popes are buried with their rings

I am not sure. I think the ring is smashed/destroyed, by I defer to our Catholic friends to give authoritative answer on that. The three fingers that were chopped off of Pope Formosus's hand are the three fingers used in consecration.

That reminds me that the article I read wasn't clear on whether Vatican I held that all (current and) subsequent Popes are infallible, or whether it was codified "officially" that all Popes of all time were "infallible" as the belief is held by Catholics

It applies, implicitly, to all the Popes It is a curious historical fact that the Popes of the first millennium (while the Church was still united, even thought it was a formality more than reality) managed to resist eastern christological heresies more successfully than the eastern Patriarchs did. One could almost say that it was providential, if it were not for the fact that the popes were not blameless.

Certainly, ever since the 6th century, cleverly using the virtual linguistic division of the united Church, the Popes have tacitly allowed and openly embraced (i.e. Pope Nicholas I, 870 A.D.) the use and teaching of the filioque.

Filioque is both christologically and legally unacceptable and was not the official teaching of the Church. Therefore, any Church official who taught it, subscribed to it, approved, promoted it, etc., was technically promoting, tolerating and approving heresy, by the definition of the term (i.e. teaching outside the Church).

So, while the Popes successfully resisted heresies from the East, they embraced one teaching that was not part of the Church official doctrine from the West (which was, ironically enough, introduced to combat the Arian heresy; thus fighting heresy with heresy!).

Pope Honorius I was convicted of heresy, although the documents on which the sentence was pronounced were burned immediately after the Council. Existing documents (which could be apologetic forgeries) show that he merely "allowed" a christologic heresy to co-exist in the Church, but did not personally embrace it.

So, to say that the Popes were somehow immaculate and immune from all heretical tendencies is historically incorrect. But we can say that they were very much immune from subscribing to the heresies of the East.

The Catholics will, of course, say they were not susceptible to any kind of heresy since they don't consider filioque to be a heresy! :) Well, that's why they subscribe to it; they don't see it as being legally unacceptable and theologically incomplete. If they did, they would not subscribe to it. I am sure of that.

12,659 posted on 09/12/2006 6:49:47 AM PDT by kosta50 (Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: annalex
"There is room for arguing whether St. Peter had primacy or infallibility among the Apostles, but the scripture clearly points at least to primacy."

If Peter had this "primacy" you claim why then wasn't the early church more Ebionite in it's doctrine, that was Peter's inclination until he was corrected by Paul.
_________________________________
"They also point to a sacramental church which was centered around baptism and the Eucharist."

Although I would agree that the two Ordinances were Baptism and Communion, as we have previously discussed, I would never agree that they were Sacraments in that they do not impart Grace and never have.

I think if you look at how the Canon was created you will see that the church prior to becoming a state religion was not as hierarchal as you think. I would agree that there was a respect for Rome, but it appears that a great many decisions were being made independent of Rome.
12,660 posted on 09/12/2006 6:56:35 AM PDT by wmfights (Psalm : 27)
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