Posted on 07/18/2005 4:52:18 PM PDT by A2J
Wow, excellent point!
Thanks!
It's intended to give me starting points for my later research.
It is not intended to be an anti-Catholic or anti-Protestant muck hunt. It is my conviction that there have been much harm done to the Church (both Catholic and Protestant) by well-meaning (and some not so well-meaning) people.
I'm surprised that it took a ton of responses before someone mentioned him.
Great play!
***those you think whose positions, actions, practices, etc., have done harm to the Body of Christ***
You're going to have to come up with a definition of to "have done harm".
As you can see, the various decendants of the various "harm doers" are disagreeing as to what is harm and what is blessing.
I'm afraid that you might be right. There's far too much side-taking in this.
My definition of "harm done" would include the introduction of the single-bishop rule of some of the Early Church Fathers, the marriage of the Church with the Roman empire (Augustine), etc.
But I see that virtually in any direction there will be the defenders of such practices. Dang. I was really hoping to get several good suggestions without people battling it out in defense of their positions. I would also accept both those who the Catholics feel have damaged the church as well as who the Protestants would see as those who damaged the church.
Thanks anyway.
Threads like these so bring out the very best in Christians..
As in, on the road to Damascus....
Well, what you have to do is find heresies that very few people agree with anymore. People who have (tried to) hurt the church: Arius, Nestorius, Simon Magus, Manes (of the Manichees). Pretty much every Christian would agree with those. And then you'd get into the polemic stuff: Augustine (for Orthodox), Photius (for Catholics), Luther & Henry VIII (Catholics), Pius V (Protestants).
But on suggestions offered so far, definitely have to raise an eyebrow at Augustine and Constantine. I get your basically Protestant positions on these two, I just think you're ascribing to them things they never said/did. I don't ever remember Augustine supporting a marriage of Church and militaristic State--in fact he really strongly delineated the two in "City of God". Likewise, Constantine's supposed "paganization" of Christianity is a pure myth.
We're gonna disagree on interpretations of events (Luther good, Luther bad), but it's important to establish first what the events were, and not rely on bad history to inform our decision.
I'm with Tax-chick on Spong though. I'll throw John Dominic Crossan into the mix as well.
You know, if you're going to boil down the Counter-Reformation to an attempt to hold onto money and lands and power, I might just as well say that the whole reason for the Reformation was that two sex-crazed men just needed any excuse to weasel out of the solemn vows they swore before God.
I so loathe this economic reductionism that passes for history nowadays.
Don't you think that's an overreaching statement? The Trinity is not taught in scripture yet I assume the Catholic Church believes in it. More importantly the Catholic Church's teaching on indulgences (specifically releasing someone's soul from purgatory for a donation to the church and one of the reasons Martin Luther separated from the Church) is not taught in scripture.
Before you blame Luther entirely you may wish to review Pope Alexander VI, Pope Pius III, Pope Julius II or Pope Leo X. All these people played a role before or after the Reformation. And before your too hard on Luther, please remember the Catholic Church later condemned the practice of paying to "release souls" from purgatory.
If you believe the Trinity is not taught in Scripture, why do you believe in it?
More importantly the Catholic Church's teaching on indulgences (specifically releasing someone's soul from purgatory for a donation to the church ...
The "sale" of indulgences (that is, connecting the indulgence to the payment of alms) was strictly forbidden by the Council of Trent almost 450 years ago. Indulgences still exist, but they are given for religious activities which don't involve money, like saying specific prayers, reading the Bible (presumably an indulgence Protestants don't object to too strongly!), etc.
Well, for it's worth A2J, here's my list of ecclesiastical bad guys for your Rogues Gallery:
Bishop Augustine of Hippo
Augustine was the first in the Church to allow for the use of reason(Greek philosophy), A number of Augustinian concepts were later picked up on by the Protestants and the Roman Catholics. He is a high maintenance guy for Protestants and Roman Catholics alike.
Nestorius
Nestorian Christology, condemned by the Church at the Council of Ephesus, encourages the idea of a visibly divisible Christ. A divisible Christ allows for the Protestant notion of an invisibly united Church that is visibly divided.
Protodeacon Alcuin of York
Alcuin was the 8-9th century prototypical Novus Ordo churchman who reformed the liturgy for the cathedral at Aachen. In 1014, this liturgy was forced down the throat of the Pope of Rome by Holy Roman Emperor Henry II and this led to the Great East/West schism in A.D. 1054. Rome has not been the same ever since and has gone from bad to worse.
Pope Gregory XIII
In 1582, this Pope of Rome did away with the Julian calendar and the Nicene way of calculating Pascha (What the English speakers mistakenly call "Easter"). Before he came along, everyone had at least observed Christmas on the same day and Pascha on the same Sunday. Pope Gregory XIII moved the Church of Rome ever further away from Orthodoxy than it was before he was elected.
King George II of England
King George, in 1752, decided to follow the lead of Pope Gregory XIII as to Pascha and the calendar. Until King George II did this, England had still clung to a small vestige of Orthodoxy.
Meletios Metaxakis
In 1923, this notorious Freemason became Ecumenical Patriarch in an election rigged by the British Foreign Office. Meletios Metaxakis saw to the recognition of Anglican Ordinations and the destruction of the Julian Calendar in his jurisdiction. After he was thrown out of Constantinople, he got himself elected to other patriarchates, again with British help. His last stop was becoming Pope of Alexandria. Meletios Metaxikis single handedly launched what we today call the ecumenical movement.
Locum Tenens Sergius of Moscow
Segius sold out the Russian Orthodox Church by turning it over to the Communist Party. He then became Patriarch of Moscow and any number of Orthodox priests and bishops became KGB agents. In the meantime, millions were martyred. To this day, many call the ROC the Ghetto Orthodox Church.
As in, on the road to Damascus....
Why do you say Saul (Paul)?
What did he do that harmed the Church?
"Before you blame Luther entirely you may wish to review Pope Alexander VI, Pope Pius III, Pope Julius II or Pope Leo X. All these people played a role before or after the Reformation."
Yes. From the Orthodox point of view, Luther was only reacting to what the Roman Catholic Church had become by the 16th century. If there never were a Roman Catholic Church (Founded in A.D. 1054), there would never have been a Martin Luther. If the Roman Catholic Church were to suddenly evaporate, Protestants would no longer have a reason to exist.
There are far worse characters than Martin Luther, or even than the popes you mentioned. Who? Ping to my 53.
Good point.
Come on, Harley, I know you have heard of Holy Tradition.....things handed down from generation to generation even though there was no written record.
You might enjoy reading Belloc on the great heresies, keeping in mind that he is quite vigorously Catholic.
http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/People/spok/metabook/heresies.html
In practice, that's exactly what sola scriptura claims.
As you point out there are several truths taught in scripture but not directly referenced.
Yes. You accept some of them, but not all. We accept more of them.
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