Posted on 05/27/2004 5:14:20 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
The disciples had to tarry, staying in Jerusalem until the day of Pentecost, not only for their own preparation but because they had to wait until the Lord was actually glorified. And as soon as He was glorified, what happened? "Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear" (Acts 2:33). The statement in John 7:39 - "...for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified" - does not pertain to us. The Holy Spirit has been given; the Lord is glorified - our waiting is not dependent on the providence of God, but on our own spiritual fitness.
The Holy Spirit's influence and power were at work before Pentecost, but He was not here. Once our Lord was glorified in His ascension, the Holy Spirit came into the world, and He has been here ever since. We have to receive the revealed truth that He is here. The attitude of receiving and welcoming the Holy Spirit into our lives is to be the continual attitude of a believer. When we receive the Holy Spirit, we receive reviving life from our ascended Lord.
It is not the baptism of the Holy Spirit that changes people, but the power of the ascended Christ coming into their lives through the Holy Spirit. We all too often separate things that the New Testament never separates. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is not an experience apart from Jesus Christ - it is the evidence of the ascended Christ.
The baptism of the Holy Spirit does not make you think of time or eternity - it is one amazing glorious now. "This is eternal life, that they may know You..." (John 17:3). Begin to know Him now, and never finish.
Oswald Chambers (1874-1917) was born July 24, 1874, in Aberdeen, Scotland. Converted in his teen years under the ministry of Charles Haddon Spurgeon, he studied art and archaeology at the University of Edinburgh before answering a call from God to the Christian ministry. He then studied theology at Dunoon College. From 1906-10 he conducted an itinerant Bible-teaching ministry in the United States, the United Kingdom, and Japan.
In 1910 Chambers married Gertrude Hobbs. They had one daughter, Kathleen, who still resides in London (as of 1992).
In 1911 he founded and became principal of the Bible Training College in Clapham, London, where he lectured until the school was closed in 1915 because of World War I. In October 1915 he sailed for Zeitoun, Egypt (near Cairo), where he ministered to Australian and New Zealand troops as a YMCA chaplain. He died there November 15, 1917, following surgery for a ruptured appendix.
My Utmost for His Highest, his best-known book, has been continuously in print in the United States since 1935 and in this, the last decade of the century, remains in the top ten titles of the religious book bestseller list with millions of copies in print. It has become a Christian classic. [from the flyleaf of the book]
Perhaps one of the reasons I have difficulty in communicating with some around here is that I see the Word differently.
I used to believe that the Scriptures were the inerrant Word of God. Indeed, they are inerrant and they reveal God truly but not fully. The Spiritual Light came on within me when I realized that the Word of God is alive and is Jesus Christ.
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:14
Briefly departing from my silence towards you guys to address your concerns:
We must all give heed to all of the Scriptural warnings. No one is exempt, not even those who bring accusation of supposed heresy. You would be wise not to automatically presume that the guy you disagree with is teaching another Gospel, lest you come face to face with your own fallibility and find that your understanding fell short in significant ways regarding the Word of God that you have already received, the nature of God, what God has done, and what things God has caused to be written.
You have my witness --
that God our Heavenly Father loves us, and sent His Only Begotton Son, Jesus Christ, to create this earth, to give us laws and commandments, to come and walk among us, to atone for sin and break the bands of death, to be our Savior, Lord, and Redeemer. Jesus does today what He did in the Bible. He called and sent true apostles, with authority to baptize, in ancient days, and again in modern times, restoring His ancient Church to the earth, which He has named The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. The Holy Spirit bears witness of all these things --
and that is what you may assume in my silence.
Again, please take your issues to another thread.
Indeed the word is living and sharper that a double edged sword.
The scriptures are the total of the revelation of God to men . In them are contained all the truth that we need to have about God and His relationship with men .
The problem is that the only way to verify some personal revelation for truth is the word of God. If it is not in line with what the bible contains then it is clearly from Satan or the human ego
Your words cause a fear in me, because what you have said was said by Joseph Smith , Mary Baker Eddie , Jim Jones , Herbert Armstrong , etc.
Consider theses words
Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
If only we had the same God , this would be very meaningful
Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: ~ RnMomof7
***
That means the book of Revelation should not be added to nor subtracted from this BOOK! Which Revelation is one of many books of the Bible!
I also know the Godhead I belived in is the same that I studied in the search for God in the Protestant churchs.
It is just the Father, Son and Holy Spirit 3 personage are one in Mind. Like Husband and Wife are two beings and yet are One.
You have a right to promote your understanding I will not argue with you nor go out of my way to undermind your belief.
Knock it off.
As mentioned previously, the warning in Revelation applies to the book of Revelation (“prophesy of this book”).
However, I certainly agree with you that any prophesy or revelation of the Holy Spirit will never contradict the written Scriptures and that is the Berean test:
And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. – John 5:37-39
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. – Daniel 12:4
This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true. And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen. – John 21:24-25
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. – 1 Corinthians 13:12
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. – 1 Corinthians 2:9-16
AG , this is not about searching the scripture to confirm some secret personal revelation . This is clearly speaking to the Bereans searching the Jewish Canon for evidence that the Gospel being presented to them by the disciples was indeed prophesied.
However, again I aver the Bible is inerrant and reveals God truly, but not fully. Here is the difference as explained by Christ (emphasis mine): And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. – John 5:37-39
This is not about personal revelation AG it is about their inability to hear or see the evidence of Christ through the clear witness sent by God
John 5:37,38
The testimony of the Father was given in three forms: (1) By direct or audible voice and the visible sending of the Spirit--as at Jesus' baptism. (2) By revelations, through the medium of prophets and angels gathered and preserved in the Old Testament Scriptures. (3) Through the Son and his works.
Jesus here asserts that all testimony of the first kind had failed to reach the Jewish rulers; the testimony of the second kind has been utterly lost upon them, for they failed to see its accordance with the testimony of the third kind which he was even then exhibiting to them, neither had it taught them to expect a personal Savior
McGarvey and Pendleton
We already know from the Scriptures themselves that some things which could have been written therein have been withheld from us according to God’s will:
And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not. – Revelation 10:4
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. – Daniel 12:4
This again is not saying that there is any further personal revelation..you are reading things into the word to defend your position
What was with held and why ?
Most agree that what was withheld was a sight so terrible that believers could become fearful instead of hopeful, not some personal secret revelation
Aleph reads, "Whatsoever things." But most manuscripts support English Version. uttered their voices--A, B, C, and Aleph omit "their voices." Then translate, "had spoken." unto me--omitted by A, B, C, Aleph, and Syriac. Seal up--the opposite command to Revelation 22:20. Even though at the time of the end the things sealed in Daniel's time were to be revealed, yet not so the voices of these thunders. Though heard by John, they were not to be imparted by him to others in this book of Revelation; so terrible are they that God in mercy withholds them, since "sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." The godly are thus kept from morbid ponderings over the evil to come; and the ungodly are not driven by despair into utter recklessness of life. ALFORD adds another aim in concealing them, namely, "godly fear, seeing that the arrows of God's quiver are not exhausted." Besides the terrors foretold, there are others unutterable and more horrifying lying in the background.
Gill
This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true. And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen. – John 21:24-25
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. – 1 Corinthians 13:12
The reason for this goes back to Jesus’ explanation above (John 5) --- which is to say, we must rely on the indwelling Holy Spirit for understanding, because the natural man cannot receive it:
We can agree that the natural man can not receive THE GOSPEL , we are told it is foolishness to him.But neither of these scriptures that you have chosen to link together (even though they actually cover different topics ) in any way hint that there is any further personal revelation that will come short of the time we stand in Glory and see Him face to face.
On John 21 Gill observes
Verse 25. And there are also many other things which Jesus did,.... Which refer not to his doctrines and discourses, his sermons and prayers, and the conversation he had with his disciples, and others, on different accounts; but to the signs, and wonders, and miraculous operations, which were done by him, that are neither recorded in this, nor in any of the evangelists:
the which, if they should be written everyone; with all the particular circumstances relating to them:
I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. The Arabic version renders it, "the things written in the books"; and the Syriac, "that the world would not be sufficient for the books that should be written"; and so the Persic, which adds, "and the Scribes of the world would fail, or be deficient"; there would not be Scribes enough in the world to write them; nor could they be read by men, if they were written; the world would be overloaded with them; and therefore the Holy Ghost has not thought fit to lay such a burden on men they could not bear, as to read such numbers of volumes; but has reduced them into a brief compendium, which may be read with ease, delight, and pleasure; and which is abundantly sufficient to attest the truth of Christ's incarnation, miracles, doctrines, obedience, sufferings, death, resurrection, ascension, session at God's right hand, &c. and of the whole of Christianity, and all that appertains to it, or whatever is necessary to be known, for the salvation of men
On Corthinians 13 Johnson notes
11-13. When I was a child. In these verses the change he has declared will take place is illustrated by the change from childhood to manhood. The speech, thoughts and feelings of the child give way to those of the man. So it will be when the church moves on from childhood to full development.
12. For now we see in a glass. In a "mirror." The mirrors of the ancients were of polished metal, and were far inferior to ours. The images were indistinct in comparison. They were seen darkly, indistinctly, imperfectly. Thus in this state of our knowledge of divine things imperfect and incomplete. But then face to face. We will not look in a glass in the coming state, but will see face to face, without a veil, or obscurity. Now I know in part. There were limitations upon the knowledge even of Paul; only a part was seen. But then, when the veil is taken away, and the full revelation has come in the presence of Christ, he shall know fully, know God, eternity and its secrets, even as he is known to God. Thus it is shown that all these spiritual gifts are fleeting.
It is an interesting observation that this chapter actually says that the spiritual gifts of the early church will disappear , that what will remain is faith ,hope and charity
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. – 1 Corinthians 2:9-16
AG do you know what Gnosticism is ?
The root word for gnosticism is the Greek verb ginosko (ginoskw)[3] which simply means “to know.” In and of itself the word is neutral. What gnosticism has become to mean, however, is “secret knowledge.” The Gnostics of early Christianity claimed to have secret revelations that were not in the pages of Scripture and consequently when the term gnosticism is used today, it is in direct reference to extra-Biblical “revelation” or teaching that cannot be confirmed by the Bible or other sources.[4]
“But if he does not listen, take one or two more along with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every spoken word may be confirmed” (Mattityahu/Matthew 18:16).
“This is the third time I am coming to you. Every fact is to be sustained by the evidence of two or three witnesses” (2 Corinthians 13:1; cf. Yochanan/John 8:17; 1 Timotheos/Timothy 5:19; Ivrim/Hebrews 10:28.).
A key to understanding gnosticism are the admonitions of the New Testament. In Mattityahu/Matthew 18:16, Yeshua tells us “by the mouth of two or three witnesses every spoken word may be confirmed.” The Apostle Paul also reiterates this in 2 Corinthians 13:1. Something can only be truth or fact with the appropriate confirmations.
“By the testimony of two witnesses or three witnesses shall the condemned person be put to death; he shall not be put to death by the testimony of a single witness” (Devarim/Deuteronomy 17:6).
“A single witness shall not stand up against any man for any iniquity or for any error, regarding any sin that he may commit; according to two witnesses or according to three witnesses shall a matter be confirmed” (Devarim/Deuteronomy 19:15).
Both Devarim/Deuteronomy 17:6 and 19:15 tell us that sufficient witnesses or evidences are needed to put a person to death. “On the evidence of two or three witnesses a matter shall be confirmed.” In other words, if you have no substantial proof, you do not have a case.
TNN Online discusses many Bible prophecy related news events which require hard evidence. Yeshua Himself tells us that deception will be rampant in the Last Days. If we cannot provide legitimate documentation surrounding a particular phenomenon, then it cannot be treated as fact. This is the clear Scriptural admonition.
Unfortunately, we have encountered others who feel that they do not need to provide evidence surrounding current events. Obviously, someone does not need to footnote the fact that George Washington was the first president of the United States. But, if someone claims that Alexander Hamilton was really controlling things during the Washington Administration, then that would be different. A person would need to provide documented evidence in regard to Hamilton’s political career, writings, and recorded actions. Just saying “Hamilton really controlled things” is not enough.
What is gnosticism? In the First—Third Centuries it was a system of beliefs that ran contrary to Scripture that people claimed was “revealed” to them. Today, it predominantly means “secret knowledge” or information that only one person or a select group of individuals have. The Bible tells us that truth will be confirmed or proved by the evidence/witness of two or three. Yeshua tells us very clearly that we are to be on guard at all times and not be deceived. We must watch out for people claiming “hidden revelation,” that cannot be proven.
http://www.tnnonline.net/theonews/apologetics/her-blas-gn/
There is a very fine line between the illumination of the Holy Spirit on scripture as we read and the seeking and the belief in personal revelation that somehow completes the word of God . We must be very careful not to fall into that heresy
Is this not a devotion thread where many express their relationship with the Lord.
Come to these threads as you are; leave with what you have discovered.
Absolutely no flaming! These daily threads are intended to be devotional in nature. If a particular day's offering says nothing to you, please just go on and wait for the next day. Consider these threads a DMZ of sorts, a place where a perpetual truce is in effect and a place where all other arguments and disagreements from other times and places are left behind.
I can attest from personal experience that reading from Chambers daily will almost certainly change - not one's faith - but one's perspective of his/her own faith, and open up new vistas in your spiritual life. If - when - this happens to a reader of these threads, and they choose to share what has happened within them - we are treading on hallowed ground. Be respectful.
1 posted on 05/27/2004 8:14:23 AM EDT by Religion Moderator
This is related to the topic of what does the Baptism give the saved.AG and I come at it differently . Nothing was addressed to you Rest, so you can ignore it
Please remove me from the Chambers Devotional Ping List.
I find that many of Chambers' devotional points are unrelated to the passage (or part of a verse) that he lists at the top of the devotional. His comments, even the ones I agree with, are often eisegesis.
I prefer a devotional that is more exegetical. So others may carry on without me.
Thanks,
drstevej
Sadly, this thread has become contentious for me with the assertion of ‘gnosticism’ and contentiousness is not appropriate for a devotion. I shall respond to all of your issues on the other thread at post 20.
I have given it to several people. When we read commentaries of the Bible, and new wording ... i.e. NIV, there seems to be a big difference in what is said as compared to the KJV. We all must be discerning.
... which strain at a gnat and swallow a camel, seems apt here. Matt 23:24
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.