The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

AP ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[Mr. Lucky]

As long as we're all just talking, could you give us your personal interpretation of James 2:24-26 so that others of us could compare it to our own?

[malakhi]

We should try to remain civil, but we should also speak honestly. Cause if you start censoring, there is no way to determine where to stop.

Well put.

[SoothingDave]

Oh wow! Do you write Scripture in your spare time?

Why the cynicism? If this is an innappropriate use of the Scripture, then please tell me where my error is.

BTW, some of the impact of this movie may have been negative. I dunno and you dontno.

I thought we were discussing reports of increased turnout at church services. You are correct, however, that none of us know the full impact of the movie.

Darn. Why are we talking about this movie?

SD

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Faith without works is like a dead body in a morgue.

Has nothing to to with salvation, we do good works because we are saved, not to become and stay saved.

BigMack

[OLD REGGIE]

"This person is also usually a relativist who believes that all paths lead to God. This type of person gets angry when he perceives someone who does not have the same spirit of tolerance to error and false doctrine."

You might classify me as one of those "relativists" though I don't get angry with those who are less tolerant than I.

I Believe Jesus is the Son of God and I believe Jesus when He calls for prayer to His Father. This "relativist" believes those who accept God are amongst the potentially saved.

When Jesus speaks of God as "my Father" I believe Him.

But that's the way with a UNITARJEWMIAN.

Further, though I know you think I am "full of it" because of my Universalist beliefs, I know you are not bashing me, but my beliefs. That's fine with me.

[OLD REGGIE]

Why the cynicism? If this is an innappropriate use of the Scripture, then please tell me where my error is.

Credit Scripture when appropriate, not "I said this before...".

Darn. Why are we talking about this movie?

I'm not sure but I think it might well have been you who made an "exception" today.

[AlguyA]

"I agree. Your posts have been about doctrines and institutions, not fellow freepers."

Sorry, Malakhi, this just isn't true. Mack, more than most, is quick to make it personal.

"Dave you are a snake, when the light is shined on the lies you support and the trash you talk, its time to move on."

BigMack

To: xJones; m4629; Siobhan; malakhi

malakhi is no Christian basher, he more then likely knows the Christian New Testament better than most Christians.

He came on here with question:

***Is it possible for anyone to critique or criticize this film without it being considered anti-Christian?***

And then clarified it with:

"***It seems to me that Christians are being as overly sensitive of criticism of the movie as Jews are of the content of the film.***"

"Looks like he got his answer to me, but hey I can tell him "I told ya so" I told him all he would run into was a bunch of bigots who learned how to debate from Democrats.

BigMack

Just yesterday I offered a post and was immediately called a snitch. A few days ago, I offered a post on the portrayal of Pontius Pilate and was immdediately accused of "spin" which, as Mack has made clear recently, is his way of calling Catholics liars.

You, of course, are entitled to your opinions. So is Mack. But let's not pretend Mack's commentary often rises above the level of calling Catholics 'liars' or individuals who hold doctrines which are 'soul damning.'

[AlguyA]

Should have pinged you to above.

[al_c]

Whatever.

[SoothingDave]

Credit Scripture when appropriate, not "I said this before...".

But I did say it before. Earlier this week or last, on the previous thread. On the same topic.

Silly me if I would assume that the folks here would "get" that it was a Scripture reference without me explicitly saying so.

SD

[al_c]

LOL! I'll see if I can find some info on it and post it here.

[OLD REGGIE]

But I did say it before. Earlier this week or last, on the previous thread. On the same topic.

Silly me if I would assume that the folks here would "get" that it was a Scripture reference without me explicitly saying so.

I said this before "The quality of mercy is not strain'd, It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven Upon the place beneath: it is twice blest; It blesseth him that gives and him that takes: 'Tis mightiest in the mightiest: it becomes The throned monarch better than his crown;..."

Silly me If I would assume every person who is reading this was also present when I said it, or if so, even paid attention at the time. (And I did say it some weeks ago. Maybe 2,900 weeks ago, more or less.)

Silly me for assuming I am so important every participant on this forum hangs onto every word I say.

[ET(end tyranny)]

What is important to understand is that Noah is protected from God's wrath in the form of the Ark, just as Lot is protected from God's wrath upon Sodom and Gomarrah by taking him out of that city.

That's right, the righteous were NOT removed from the planet, they endured, right here ON planet earth and were under YHWH's protection. They were not REMOVED from the planet. They trusted in YHWH to protect them right here during the destructions.

From my previous post:

Psalm 91 (JPS)
5 Thou shalt not be afraid of the terror by night, nor of the arrow that flieth by day;
6 Of the pestilence that walketh in darkness, nor of the destruction that wasteth at noonday.
7 A thousand may fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; it shall not come nigh thee.
8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold, and see the recompense of the wicked.
9 For thou hast made YHWH who is my refuge, even the Most High, thy habitation.
10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy tent.
11 For He will give His angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.

Now, since this is God's M.O., would it not also be likely that God would protect the righteous at the great tribulation by taking them out, removing them, or protecting them in some way as not to be affected or punished by the wrath of God?

There is a difference between 'protecting' and 'I don't have to worry because I am not going to be here.' Yes, the righteous will be protected from the destruction just as they were in earlier times, but the righteous are NOT removed from earth.

Proverbs 10:30   The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.

So, yes, the righteous do not suffer, BUT, they also are NOT removed from the planet. Look at Lot's wife, she was close enough to the action that all it took was one act of disobedience and poof she was history.

Did Lot go through the judgement? Did Noah get flooded or drown?

They both went through judgements, they both obeyed and were protected. Lot's wife disobeyed and perished. There's a lesson in there somewhere.

Do you observe the Sabbath? What do your Saturdays consist of?

At this point I do not observe in the manner that Jews do, since we do not have any synagogues near us. The closest one is probably 5 hours one way.

I DO acknowledge that Saturday IS the Sabbath, and no other day. Most Saturdays we do not do much of anything special. There are some Saturday's that I spend with mentally challenged people, taking them shopping, out to dinner and sometimes if time permits, we have picnics, go to the zoo, or a museum or planetarium or theater. They really enjoyed the IMAX 3D movie we went to a while back.

Now, while you could technically say that I violated the Sabbath by doing those things, I'm content with letting YHWH make that determination.

It might be more important to ask what I do NOT do on the Sabbath.

I do NOT kneel before a cross.

I do NOT pray to a god man that Jacob or Isaac never heard of.

I do NOT bow my head to an image on a cross.

I do NOT pray in the direction of statues or images.

I do NOT give adoration to an image on a cross.

I do NOT consider anyone equal to YHWH.

I do NOT pray to anyone other than YHWH.

I do NOT go through an uneccessary mediator when praying to YHWH.

YHWH commandmed that the Sabbath be kept holy. I do NOT consider Sunday holy, and especially holier than Saturday/the Sabbath.

While not being able to worship as the Jews, I do refrain from worshipping on man made sacred day of Sunday.

Until someone can show me the verse stating that we are commanded to keep Sunday holy, I will continue to repeat that the 4th commandment is being violated by those keeping Sunday holy instead of the day that YHWH declared sacred.

It is one thing to not be able to keep the day holy as a Jew, and a totally different thing to deliberately worship on a day that man/pope commanded instead of the day that YHWH commanded.

JMO

[SoothingDave]

Silly me for assuming I am so important every participant on this forum hangs onto every word I say.

Coming from someone who puppydogs around after me and nips at my heels, that's pretty funny.

SD

[ET(end tyranny)]

What is it that you think most christians are doing on the Sabbath ... working ... kindling a fire .... what ?

Quite a few actually go to church and kneel in front of crosses, pray in front of statues and or crosses with images of a man on them. Some even pray to that man god image, and some pretend to eat and drink blood.

While most may not be able to keep the Sabbath in the manner of the Jews, the real problem is with those that choose to deliberately honor a different day than the one that YHWH declared sacred. They actually choose to honor a day that man decided was better.

You are free to disagree of course. I'll merely ask you the same thing I have asked others.

Where is the verse in the NT that commands us to stop observing the Sabbath and commands us to observe sun day instead.

Something so important would have been told to us. jmo

[SoothingDave]

5 Thou shalt not be afraid of the terror by night, nor of the arrow that flieth by day;
6 Of the pestilence that walketh in darkness, nor of the destruction that wasteth at noonday.
7 A thousand may fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; it shall not come nigh thee.
8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold, and see the recompense of the wicked.
9 For thou hast made YHWH who is my refuge, even the Most High, thy habitation.
10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy tent.
11 For He will give His angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.

Be careful with that Psalm! You never know when you might start a singing of "On Eagle's Wings." ;-)

SD

[JohnnyM]

just so you know. I do not hold Sunday as the Sabbath. Saturday is the 7th day of the week and is therefore the Sabbath, however I believe all those who put their faith in Christ have entered into God's rest (Hebrews 4), meaning that by being in Christ we observe the Sabbath every day. I will agree that those who say that the Sabbath is Sunday or that the Church changed it to Sunday are in error and have no Biblical basis for such a claim. Sunday is a new day, which is part of the New Covenant, wholly separate from the Sabbath.

JM

[RnMomof7]

Jam 2:14 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Jam 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

Jam 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit?

Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Jam 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Jam 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Jam 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?


James is not written to unbelievers but to believers.

It is an exposition on the believers walk not
how to get "saved" or stay "saved".

Notice that James does not say that *** If a man has faith..***He says IF a man*** says**he has faith , not just a verbal proclamation .
He is saying that the pretense of saving faith is shown by your failure to do as Christ commanded .
True saving faith is like a good tree that bears good fruit.

The only way that we can show men our faith is by our works .

James addresses how our faith looks to men . What is the testimony that men give to the world to show they are new creations in Christ?

If a man says he is saved and does not have the fruit of that salvation he is not attached to the vine .
It is the vine that gives life to the fruit , not the fruit to the vine .

James is simply re teaching the words of Christ to

“If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also; and if anyone wants to sue you and take your coat, give your cloak as well; and if anyone forces you to go one mile, go also the second mile.(Mat 5)

[SoothingDave]

Here you go.

For the first time in 10 years, Mary Wilkinson went to church one Sunday in January. She sat in a back pew at St. Francis Episcopal Church in Stamford, Conn., flipping through a prayer book and listening intently to the priest's sermon.

What drew Ms. Wilkinson back into the fold was a new monthly program the church introduced -- Holy Communion for pets. As part of the service, the 59-year-old retired portfolio manager carried her 17-year-old tiger cat to the altar, waited in line behind three panting dogs to receive the host and had a special benediction performed for her cat, Purr Box Jr. "I like that the other parishioners are animal people," Ms. Wilkinson says.

[Quester]

Quite a few actually go to church and kneel in front of crosses, pray in front of statues and or crosses with images of a man on them. Some even pray to that man god image, and some pretend to eat and drink blood.

There may be a few christians who do so on the Sabbath, but you said most Christians break the Sabbath.

Most American christians spend Saturdays off from work in activity with their families.

How is this 'breaking the Sabbath' ?

If your standard is the Noahide Covenant, ... such is a perfectly God-honoring way to spend the Sabbath.

Where is the verse in the NT that commands us to stop observing the Sabbath and commands us to observe sun day instead.

Such has never been my claim.