Calvinism, and the Council of Orange (529AD)

Calvinism, and the Council of Orange (529AD)
The Canons of the Council of Orange ^ | 10-23-03 | OP

Posted on 10/22/2003 10:23:20 PM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian

Do men Believe so that they become Regenerate, or are men Regenerated so that they do Believe?

The Calvinist would argue the latter proposition:

Men are Regenerated so that they do Believe.

I shall now endeavor to argue that this is the position which is A.) proved from Scripture and B.) supported by the Canons of Orange.

Men are Regenerated so that they do Believe:
THE PROOF FROM SCRIPTURE

***Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. (John 3:3)
***And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. (John 3:19-20)***Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. (John 14:17)
***Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. (Acts 7:51)
***For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. (Romans 7:18)
***For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (Romans 8:5-9)
***But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:14)
***Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. (1 Corinthians 12:3)

By these declarations, which Biblically define for us the condition of Man, we see that the Unregenerate Man does never see the Kingdom of God and does always Hate the Light and does never receive the Spirit and does always resist the Spirit and does never that which is Spiritually Good and does always hate God and does never anything pleasing to God and does never discern the things of the Spirit and does never say that Jesus is Lord.

But if these things be the Biblical Doctrine of Unregenerate Man, then we immediately see the gross errors of the Wesleyan and Molinist doctrines of Prevenient Grace (and which attend also to the lesser errors of Thomist and Roman-Augustinian doctrines of gratia mere sufficiens), if they suppose that Efficacious, Regenerating Grace is given on the basis of any “foreknown response” to any Prevenient or Sufficient Grace which is not itself Regenerative; for it does not matter what quantity of Prevenient Grace is given to illuminate the Unregenerate Man, given that while yet still Unregenerate that Man being yet still Unregenerate, does ALWAYS HATE whatever Light is given him and does NEVER RECEIVE the Spirit.

And since this be the Biblical Doctrine of Unregenerate Man, it must therefore be asked: How, then, do the Elect become saved -- starting as they do likewise from an initial condition of Spiritual Death, being likewise Unregenerate? For if all Unregenerate Men do always hate and resist the sufficient, and prevenient, and (to use Calvinist terminology) common graces; then how do any become Regenerate?

The answer given by Scripture, is that Efficacious Grace is effectual unto Regeneration precisely because Efficacious Grace is not in any way conditioned upon the Response of Man’s Will (which, in the Unregenerate, will be always and uniformly negative).

***The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will. (Proverbs 21:1)
***But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:12-13)
***For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake (Phillipians 1:29)***For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. (Phillipians 2:13)

Efficacious Grace is precisely that very Grace which Regenerates; and this Regenerating Grace operates not in co-operation with the Unregenerate Man’s free will, not by the overthrowing of the Unregenerate Man’s free will, but without even consulting with the Unregenerate Man’s free will. Thus are the Elect Regenerated so that they do Believe, and it is the Regeneration of the Elect which gives efficacy unto the Means of Salvation.

***

Men are Regenerated so that they do Believe:
THE SUPPORT OF THE CANONS OF ORANGE

CANONS 1-2 -- If anyone denies that it is the whole man, that is, both body and soul, that was "changed for the worse" through the offense of Adam's sin, but believes that the freedom of the soul remains unimpaired and that only the body is subject to corruption, he is deceived by the error of Pelagius and contradicts the scripture which says, "The soul that sins shall die" (Ezek. 18:20); and, "Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are the slaves of the one whom you obey?" (Rom. 6:126); and, "For whatever overcomes a man, to that he is enslaved" (2 Pet. 2:19).
If anyone asserts that Adam's sin affected him alone and not his descendants also, or at least if he declares that it is only the death of the body which is the punishment for sin, and not also that sin, which is the death of the soul, passed through one man to the whole human race, he does injustice to God and contradicts the Apostle, who says, "Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned" (Rom. 5:12).
CANON 3 -- If anyone says that the grace of God can be conferred as a result of human prayer, but that it is not grace itself which makes us pray to God, he contradicts the prophet Isaiah, or the Apostle who says the same thing, "I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me" (Rom 10:20, quoting Isa. 65:1).
CANON 4 -- If anyone maintains that God awaits our will to be cleansed from sin, but does not confess that even our will to be cleansed comes to us through the infusion and working of the Holy Spirit, he resists the Holy Spirit himself who says through Solomon, "The will is prepared by the Lord" (Prov. 8:35, LXX), and the salutary word of the Apostle, "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).
CANON 5 -- If anyone says that not only the increase of faith but also its beginning and the very desire for faith, by which we believe in Him who justifies the ungodly and comes to the regeneration of holy baptism -- if anyone says that this belongs to us by nature and not by a gift of grace, that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, it is proof that he is opposed to the teaching of the Apostles, for blessed Paul says, "And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6). And again, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8). For those who state that the faith by which we believe in God is natural make all who are separated from the Church of Christ by definition in some measure believers.
CANON 6 -- If anyone says that God has mercy upon us when, apart from his grace, we believe, will, desire, strive, labor, pray, watch, study, seek, ask, or knock, but does not confess that it is by the infusion and inspiration of the Holy Spirit within us that we have the faith, the will, or the strength to do all these things as we ought; or if anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, "What have you that you did not receive?" (1 Cor. 4:7), and, "But by the grace of God I am what I am" (1 Cor. 15:10).
CANON 7 -- If anyone affirms that we can form any right opinion or make any right choice which relates to the salvation of eternal life, as is expedient for us, or that we can be saved, that is, assent to the preaching of the gospel through our natural powers without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who makes all men gladly assent to and believe in the truth, he is led astray by a heretical spirit, and does not understand the voice of God who says in the Gospel, "For apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5), and the word of the Apostle, "Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God" (2 Cor. 3:5).
CANON 8 -- If anyone maintains that some are able to come to the grace of baptism by mercy but others through free will, which has manifestly been corrupted in all those who have been born after the transgression of the first man, it is proof that he has no place in the true faith. For he denies that the free will of all men has been weakened through the sin of the first man, or at least holds that it has been affected in such a way that they have still the ability to seek the mystery of eternal salvation by themselves without the revelation of God. The Lord himself shows how contradictory this is by declaring that no one is able to come to him "unless the Father who sent me draws him" (John 6:44), as he also says to Peter, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 16:17), and as the Apostle says, "No one can say 'Jesus is Lord' except by the Holy Spirit" (1 Cor. 12:3).
CANONS 9-11 -- Concerning the succor of God. It is a mark of divine favor when we are of a right purpose and keep our feet from hypocrisy and unrighteousness; for as often as we do good, God is at work in us and with us, in order that we may do so.
Concerning the succor of God. The succor of God is to be ever sought by the regenerate and converted also, so that they may be able to come to a successful end or persevere in good works.
Concerning the duty to pray. None would make any true prayer to the Lord had he not received from him the object of his prayer, as it is written, "Of thy own have we given thee" (1 Chron. 29:14).
CANON 12 -- Of what sort we are whom God loves. God loves us for what we shall be by his gift, and not by our own deserving.
CANON 13 -- Concerning the restoration of free will – The freedom of will that was destroyed in the first man can be restored only by the grace of baptism, for what is lost can be returned only by the one who was able to give it. Hence the Truth itself declares: "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed" (John 8:36).
CANON 14 -- No mean wretch is freed from his sorrowful state, however great it may be, save the one who is anticipated by the mercy of God, as the Psalmist says, "Let thy compassion come speedily to meet us" (Ps. 79:8), and again, "My God in his steadfast love will meet me" (Ps. 59:10).
CANONS 16-25 -- No man shall be honored by his seeming attainment, as though it were not a gift, or suppose that he has received it because a missive from without stated it in writing or in speech. For the Apostle speaks thus, "For if justification were through the law, then Christ died to no purpose" (Gal. 2:21); and "When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men" (Eph. 4:8, quoting Ps. 68:18). It is from this source that any man has what he does; but whoever denies that he has it from this source either does not truly have it, or else "even what he has will be taken away" (Matt. 25:29).
Concerning Christian courage. The courage of the Gentiles is produced by simple greed, but the courage of Christians by the love of God which "has been poured into our hearts" not by freedom of will from our own side but "through the Holy Spirit which has been given to us" (Rom. 5:5).
That grace is not preceded by merit. Recompense is due to good works if they are performed; but grace, to which we have no claim, precedes them, to enable them to be done.
That a man can be saved only when God shows mercy. Human nature, even though it remained in that sound state in which it was created, could be no means save itself, without the assistance of the Creator; hence since man cannot safe-guard his salvation without the grace of God, which is a gift, how will he be able to restore what he has lost without the grace of God?
That a man can do no good without God. God does much that is good in a man that the man does not do; but a man does nothing good for which God is not responsible, so as to let him do it.
Concerning nature and grace. As the Apostle most truly says to those who would be justified by the law and have fallen from grace, "If justification were through the law, then Christ died to no purpose" (Gal. 2:21), so it is most truly declared to those who imagine that grace, which faith in Christ advocates and lays hold of, is nature: "If justification were through nature, then Christ died to no purpose." Now there was indeed the law, but it did not justify, and there was indeed nature, but it did not justify. Not in vain did Christ therefore die, so that the law might be fulfilled by him who said, "I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them" (Matt. 5:17), and that the nature which had been destroyed by Adam might be restored by him who said that he had come "to seek and to save the lost" (Luke 19:10).
Concerning those things that belong to man. No man has anything of his own but untruth and sin. But if a man has any truth or righteousness, it from that fountain for which we must thirst in this desert, so that we may be refreshed from it as by drops of water and not faint on the way.
Concerning the will of God and of man. Men do their own will and not the will of God when they do what displeases him; but when they follow their own will and comply with the will of God, however willingly they do so, yet it is his will by which what they will is both prepared and instructed.
Concerning the branches of the vine. The branches on the vine do not give life to the vine, but receive life from it; thus the vine is related to its branches in such a way that it supplies them with what they need to live, and does not take this from them. Thus it is to the advantage of the disciples, not Christ, both to have Christ abiding in them and to abide in Christ. For if the vine is cut down another can shoot up from the live root; but one who is cut off from the vine cannot live without the root (John 15:5ff).
Concerning the love with which we love God. It is wholly a gift of God to love God. He who loves, even though he is not loved, allowed himself to be loved. We are loved, even when we displease him, so that we might have means to please him. For the Spirit, whom we love with the Father and the Son, has poured into our hearts the love of the Father and the Son (Rom. 5:5).
CONCLUSION -- And thus according to the passages of holy scripture quoted above or the interpretations of the ancient Fathers we must, under the blessing of God, preach and believe as follows. The sin of the first man has so impaired and weakened free will that no one thereafter can either love God as he ought or believe in God or do good for God's sake, unless the grace of divine mercy has preceded him. We therefore believe that the glorious faith which was given to Abel the righteous, and Noah, and Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and to all the saints of old, and which the Apostle Paul commends in extolling them (Heb. 11), was not given through natural goodness as it was before to Adam, but was bestowed by the grace of God. And we know and also believe that even after the coming of our Lord this grace is not to be found in the free will of all who desire to be baptized, but is bestowed by the kindness of Christ, as has already been frequently stated and as the Apostle Paul declares, "For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake" (Phil. 1:29). And again, "He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6). And again, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and it is not your own doing, it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8). And as the Apostle says of himself, "I have obtained mercy to be faithful" (1 Cor. 7:25, cf. 1 Tim. 1:13). He did not say, "because I was faithful," but "to be faithful." And again, "What have you that you did not receive?" (1 Cor. 4:7). And again, "Every good endowment and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights" (Jas. 1:17). And again, "No one can receive anything except what is given him from heaven" (John 3:27). There are innumerable passages of holy scripture which can be quoted to prove the case for grace, but they have been omitted for the sake of brevity, because further examples will not really be of use where few are deemed sufficient. According to the catholic faith we also believe that after grace has been received through baptism, all baptized persons have the ability and responsibility, if they desire to labor faithfully, to perform with the aid and cooperation of Christ what is of essential importance in regard to the salvation of their soul. We not only do not believe that any are foreordained to evil by the power of God, but even state with utter abhorrence that if there are those who want to believe so evil a thing, they are anathema. We also believe and confess to our benefit that in every good work it is not we who take the initiative and are then assisted through the mercy of God, but God himself first inspires in us both faith in him and love for him without any previous good works of our own that deserve reward, so that we may both faithfully seek the sacrament of baptism, and after baptism be able by his help to do what is pleasing to him. We must therefore most evidently believe that the praiseworthy faith of the thief whom the Lord called to his home in paradise, and of Cornelius the centurion, to whom the angel of the Lord was sent, and of Zacchaeus, who was worthy to receive the Lord himself, was not a natural endowment but a gift of God's kindness.

Addendum – BAPTISM

References within the Canons to Baptism need not be assumed to require a belief in “Water-Baptismal Regeneration” as commonly defined by Roman Catholic Theologians. In fact, it is De Fide within the Roman Confession to believe in at least three valid Baptisms – Baptism of Water, Baptism of Desire, and Baptism of Blood. Water Baptism is the most familiar form, theologically; but the Baptism of Blood (referring to the martyrdom of those killed for converting to Christianity prior to the receipt of Water Baptism) and the Baptism of Desire (which refers more generally to those who die before receiving Water Baptism, but having a desire therefore) are also considered Valid.

In fact, the definition of “Baptism of Desire” given in the Catholic Encyclopedia:

baptismus flaminis

votum

…has the effect of making the “Baptism of Desire” the precedent form of Baptism, of which Water-Baptism or the Baptism of Blood are the subsequent, external signs – for every sinner who truly converts to Christianity and who expresses a true desire to accept Christian Baptism (or who dies as a true martyr before Water-Baptism) has thereby already expressed the “Baptism of Desire”. As such, it is the “Baptism of Desire” which is most directly associated with Regeneration itself, of which Water Baptism is the external celebration:

Having weighed this in my mind again and again, I perceive that not only can suffering for the name of Christ supply for what was lacking in Baptism, but even faith and conversion of heart, if perchance on account of the stress of the times the celebration of the mystery of Baptism is not practicable." – Thomas Aquinas

And given that we know from Paul’s Epistle to the Romans that the Unregenerate DO NOT Love God, the perfect contrition and pure love of God expressed in the Baptism of Desire must be understood as the immediate results of Divine Regeneration – the Baptism of Desire is the inner spiritual expression of the Regeneration which the sinner has just experienced, and which will shortly be confirmed by the external celebration of Water-Baptism.

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1 posted on 10/22/2003 10:23:21 PM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian

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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian

Is this your response to HermannWhasisname?

2 posted on 10/23/2003 2:41:25 AM PDT by xzins (Proud to be Army!)

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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian

For read later

3 posted on 10/23/2003 3:38:53 AM PDT by ponyespresso (simul justus et peccator)

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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian

IT appears you ommitted soemthing from the canons

" And thus according to the passages of holy scripture quoted above or the interpretations of the ancient Fathers we must, under the blessing of God, preach and believe as follows. The sin of the first man has so impaired and weakened free will that no one thereafter can either love God as he ought or believe in God or do good for God's sake,unless the grace of divine mercy has preceded him. We therefore believe that the glorious faith which was given to Abel the righteous, and Noah, and Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and to all the saints of old, and which the Apostle Paul commends in extolling them (Heb. 11), was not given through natural goodness as it was before to Adam, but was bestowed by the grace of God. And we know and also believe that even after the coming of our Lord this grace is not to be found in the free will of all who desire to be baptized, but is bestowed by the kindness of Christ, as has already been frequently stated and as the Apostle Paul declares, "For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake" (Phil. 1:29). And again, "He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6). And again, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and it is not your own doing, it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8). And as the Apostle says of himself,"I have obtained mercy to be faithful" (1 Cor. 7:25, cf. 1 Tim. 1:13). He did not say, "because I was faithful," but "to be faithful." And again, "What have you that you did not receive?" (1 Cor. 4:7). And again, "Every good endowment and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights" (Jas. 1:17). And again, "No one can receive anything except what is given him from heaven" (John 3:27).There are innumerable passages of holy scripture which can be quoted to prove the case for grace, but they have been omitted for the sake of brevity, because further examples will not really be of use where few are deemed sufficient.

According to the catholic faith we also believe that after grace has been received through baptism, all baptized persons have the ability and responsibility, if they desire to labor faithfully, to perform with the aid and cooperation of Christ what is of essential importance in regard to the salvation of their soul. We not only do not believe that any are foreordained to evil by the power of God, but even state with utter abhorrence that if there are those who want to believe so evil a thing, they are anathema. We also believe and confess to our benefit that in every good work it is not we who take the initiative and are then assisted through the mercy of God, but God himself first inspires in us both faith in him and love for him without any previous good works of our own that deserve reward, so that we may both faithfully seek the sacrament of baptism, and after baptism be able by his help to do what is pleasing to him. We must therefore most evidently believe that the praiseworthy faith of the thief whom the Lord called to his home in paradise, and of Cornelius the centurion, to whom the angel of the Lord was sent, and of Zacchaeus, who was worthy to receive the Lord himself, was not a natural endowment but a gift of God's kindness."

4 posted on 10/23/2003 5:51:56 AM PDT by Catholicguy (MT1618 Church of Peter remains pure and spotless from all leading into error, or heretical fraud)

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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian

It should also be noted (I don't have the time to type it out right now) that the Canons of Orange II only became autoritative because they were accepted and approved by Pope Boniface II ( "Per filium nostrum" to Caesarius of Arles, Jan 25, 531)

I will just select a few sentences from this confirmation

"And this, too, we rejoice that your Fraternity, after holding a meeting with certain priests of the Gauls, understood according to the catholic faith, namely in these mattters in which one accord......Therefore we salute (you) with proper affection, and approve your confession written above in agreement with the Catholic rules of the Fathers."

You know, O.P., it gets to be a little much, this early in the morning, seeing a Calvinist post Canons of a Catholic Council, whose authority exists because of the authority/confirmation of a Catholic Pope, as proof a protestant's doctrine of grace is correct.

Sheesh, don't you have any qualms about this?

Let it be said Calvin was correct when he was in agreement with the Christian Church's Doctrine of Grace, which existed a millenium prior to Calvin's birthm and he was, justly, condemned by the Christian Church for those errrs about Grace he held and taught.

5 posted on 10/23/2003 6:06:32 AM PDT by Catholicguy (MT1618 Church of Peter remains pure and spotless from all leading into error, or heretical fraud)

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To: Catholicguy; OrthodoxPresbyterian

Well, OP was actually not trying to use this to "prove" that his ideas were "correct," but rather that they were "Catholic." But you have shown how he omitted portions against his theory.

6 posted on 10/23/2003 6:24:01 AM PDT by SoothingDave

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To: xzins

>> According to the catholic faith we also believe that after
grace has been received through baptism, all baptized persons
have the ABILITY and RESPONSIBILITY, *IF* they DESIRE to labor faithfully, to perform WITH THE AID AND COOPERATION of Christ what is of essential importance in regard to the salvation of their soul.

IOW, we as Catholics believe that Man is incapable of loving and obeying God as he must. But because he is given free will, he must also desire to keep it once it has been given to him.

Calvinists explain turning towards sin as an indication that the person was never truly baptised. Baptism is called a sign; if one can appear to be baptised, even believe himself to be baptised, and not be, how is the act of baptism a "sign at all? Catholics, on the other hand, believe the baptism is always effective in removing the eternal consequence of Adam's sin, yet many who are batised repeat Adam's sin of rejecting Christ. This is what is called a "mortal sin." (In conventional usage, "mortal sin" has become conflated with "grave sin." A mortal sin is a grave sin which is done with full will and full awareness of its consequences.)

The commentary does support the notion that God is necessary; so does the Catholic Church (Augustine, after all, was a Catholic). What seperates Catholics and Calvinists is the Calvinist's assertion that once chosen, Man is incapable of rejecting Salvation.

7 posted on 10/23/2003 8:19:01 AM PDT by dangus

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To: drstevej; RnMomof7; Calvinist_Dark_Lord; Frumanchu; CARepubGal; CCWoody; sr4402; irishtenor; ...

Calvinist Swarm Ping

8 posted on 10/23/2003 8:40:44 AM PDT by Gamecock (PCA; The intolerant Presbyterians!)

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To: dangus; drstevej

The commentary does support the notion that God is necessary; so does the Catholic Church (Augustine, after all, was a Catholic). What seperates Catholics and Calvinists is the Calvinist's assertion that once chosen, Man is incapable of rejecting Salvation.

I hesitate and my heart flutters a wee bit when I attempt to speak for a calvinist.

But the primary reason in Calvinism that one cannot reject Salvation goes back to Calvinism's basic premise; i.e., God chose who would be saved, and He calls these persons the elect.

Logically, it is impossible for one who has been preselected to be saved to end up being other than saved. That is a primary reason why Calvinists believe that a person cannot later choose to be an unbeliever.

For them "being an unbeliever" is a sign that you never were a true believer. In other words, a true believer will persevere in the faith.

9 posted on 10/23/2003 8:49:12 AM PDT by xzins (Proud to be Army!)

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To: xzins

I hesitate and my heart flutters a wee bit when I attempt to speak for a calvinist.

You have faithfully represented us, z! :)

10 posted on 10/23/2003 8:55:54 AM PDT by Frumanchu (mene mene tekel upharsin)

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To: xzins

***I hesitate and my heart flutters a wee bit when I attempt to speak for a calvinist.***

Chaplain:

Come over to the Dark Side...

11 posted on 10/23/2003 9:00:26 AM PDT by Gamecock (I can't think of anything to put here.)

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To: Gamecock; OrthodoxPresbyterian

Yeah, I'm on board!

12 posted on 10/23/2003 9:07:10 AM PDT by CCWoody (Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory,...)

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To: xzins

You know something, the belief that Salvation, once seen, can be rejected presumes that God's beauty is less desirable than the temporary pleasures of sin.

Woody.

13 posted on 10/23/2003 9:13:51 AM PDT by CCWoody (Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory,...)

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To: xzins

Ya can't be unborn once reborn.

OJSG (Once justified, surely glorified) - Romans 8:30

14 posted on 10/23/2003 9:31:31 AM PDT by drstevej

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To: drstevej

There you go again, bringing scripture into the discussion. </sarcasm>

15 posted on 10/23/2003 9:37:15 AM PDT by Gamecock (I can't think of anything to put here.)

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To: CCWoody

>> You know something, the belief that Salvation, once seen, can be rejected presumes that God's beauty is less desirable than the temporary pleasures of sin.

Does it? Have you seen the fullness of the beatific vision? Have you seen the Father in all his glory? Didn't think so. Does this mean you are damned? Of course not. We are not talking about people who have seen the fullness of the beatific vision turning away from Christ. We are talking, perhaps, of people unwilling to bear the suffering of Christ in order to see the beatific vision. Big difference.

16 posted on 10/23/2003 9:41:16 AM PDT by dangus

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To: Frumanchu; Gamecock; CCWoody; drstevej

Thank you, Fru, I was trying to be fair.

Just an incident quickly, then I've gotta go see the chiropracter for a thrown back.

Had a man recently who had a heart attack and made a profession of faith recently in the hospital. Then he had a stroke. Now he remembers nothing of it (and other things.)

But it's for a PHYSICAL reason over which he has absolutely no control. His wife is beside herself, and I will go to speak to her this week. My position will be that God surely will understand such devastating physical damage to his brain.

What do you all think I should tell her?

I like SteveJ's, "once justified surely glorified."

17 posted on 10/23/2003 9:48:35 AM PDT by xzins (Proud to be Army!)

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To: xzins

***I like SteveJ's, "once justified surely glorified."***

Heck, I got it from Paul!

18 posted on 10/23/2003 9:49:58 AM PDT by drstevej

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To: xzins

Even if God chooses those whom he foreknows will choose him, it would still be impossible for the person that God chose to fall from Grace because God would know that person would ultimately fall from grace or otherwise reject the gospel and hence God would not choose them. Thus not all who claim to have salvation are chosen, but only those whom God foreknows will "endure to the end".

Being Chosen by God either from a Calvinistic viewpoint or from my own -- and I assume from your -- non-calvinistic viewpoint is irreversible. Once the election has been made (whether it be from the secret council of God or because of his foreknowledge -- or both) it is a choice for all eternity. God knows not only who will come to him, but also who will endure. I believe that all who honestly and sincerely come to him on his terms can (and indeed do) have the assurance of salvation and those people will indeed endure to the end.

19 posted on 10/23/2003 9:52:45 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (Milquetoast Q. Whitebread is alive!)

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To: xzins

The problem with the Calvinist is that he thinks he can know if he is "preselcted" or not.

20 posted on 10/23/2003 9:53:19 AM PDT by SoothingDave

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