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Kerry raps Pope: Senator fuming over gay marriage order
Boston Herald | Saturday, August 2, 2003 | By David R. Guarino

Posted on 08/02/2003 5:01:12 AM PDT by ninonitti

Bluntly telling the Vatican to stay out of American politics, U.S. Sen. John F. Kerry yesterday said Pope John Paul II ``crossed the line'' by instructing pols to block legalization of gay marriage.

A fuming Kerry, taking on his own Catholic Church in the midst of a campaign for president, said Rome should have more respect for America's long-held separation of church and state.

``It is important not to have the church instructing politicians. That is an inappropriate crossing of the line in this country,'' Kerry said. ``President Kennedy drew that line very clearly in 1960 and I believe we need to stand up for that line today.''

The Democrat said political concerns are secondary to his moral outrage over Thursday's Vatican statement on gay marriage.

``Our founding fathers separated church and state in America. It is an important separation,'' he said. ``It is part of what makes America different and special, and we need to honor that as we go forward and I'm going to fight to do that.''

Catholics were stunned at the broadside from Kerry, saying he's sure to draw the ire of some 65 million voting Catholics.

``What one often calls separation of church and state guarantees the religion the right to express its convictions,'' said Monsignor Francis Maniscalco of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. ``To object to religious people's deep moral convictions . . . would also create a problem because it would also (fail to) recognize something the First Amendment guarantees.''

Former Vatican Ambassador Raymond Flynn said Kerry was just wrong. ``I don't see it as crossing any line at all,'' Flynn said. ``Too many Catholic politicians want to have it both ways, they want the Catholic vote but then they go ahead and ignore Catholic teaching.''

The Vatican injected itself into the simmering gay marriage debate Thursday, firing off a letter issuing instructions to Catholic politicians to oppose any legalization efforts.

``The Catholic lawmaker has a moral duty to express his opposition (to gay marriage laws) clearly and publicly and to vote against it,'' the directive read. ``To vote in favor of a law so harmful to the common good is gravely immoral.''

The statement followed by a day strong comments from President Bush denouncing gay marriage proposals.

Kerry, who supports civil unions but opposes the legalization of same-sex marriage, took pains to say, ``I believe in the church'' and ``care about it enormously'' but said church leaders went too far.

Alone among Democrats in criticizing the church, Kerry said he didn't weigh the political impact of his statement.

``This isn't a matter of political calculation, it's simply a matter of strong personal beliefs,'' Kerry said.

The Democratic senator also railed against Republicans who this week said Democratic efforts to block the judicial nomination of Alabama Attorney General William H. Pryor were anti-Catholic. One group, the Ave Maria List, ran print ads equating Democrats' opposition to Pryor as saying ``Catholics need not apply'' to the federal judiciary.

``That couldn't be further from the truth. This judge is not a good judge,'' Kerry said. ``He should not be appointed to the court, and many of us who are Catholic voted against him without regard to Catholicism.''

Kerry also continued his criticism of Bush's ``faith-based'' programs, saying he would end government funding to any religious group.

The White House and Kerry's opponents declined comment.

But the Republican National Committee blamed the sudden attack on the growing popularity of Kerry opponent, former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean.

``It seems like a very odd political strategy to attack the Catholic Church but Howard Dean is forcing Sen. Kerry to take a number of odd positions on a number of odd issues,'' said RNC spokeswoman Christine Iverson.


TOPICS: Front Page News; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; US: Massachusetts
KEYWORDS: 2004; billpryor; catholic; catholiclist; catholicpoliticians; gaymarriage; johnkerry; johnpaulii; kerry; rayflinn; samesexmarriage; vatican
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I guess Teresa Heinz has told her guy to stand on his head like a bottle of ketchup when he's empty of ideas.

Seems to be working just fine. Anytime he can make that raging drunk Ray Flynn seem like a rational man you have to say what is he thinking?

1 posted on 08/02/2003 5:01:13 AM PDT by ninonitti
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To: ninonitti
political concerns are secondary to his moral outrage over Thursday's Vatican statement on gay marriage.

Well, that certainly is an unusual way of phrasing it.

"His moral outrage"? What system of "morality" is Senator Kerry a subscriber to, that is "outraged" by the Catholic Church teaching Catholics what being Catholic means? Does Kerry pretend to be Catholic himself?

Is he "outraged" when the rabbi in charge of kosher certification for Boston tells Stop 'n Shop they can't sell ham and label it kosher?

Is he "outraged" when the Islamic Center calls the faithful to prayer five times a day?

Is he "outraged" when the Episcopal Bishop of Massachusetts tells a congregation they must accept a female bishop, or leave their building?

I would say the Senator has some "issues" with Catholicism that he needs to work through here.

2 posted on 08/02/2003 5:10:01 AM PDT by Jim Noble
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To: ninonitti
if kerry feels that he can tell of the pope then if he is so "pro-war" why didn't he tell the Pope to mind his own business when the Pope was making all those anti-war comments obviously aimed at the U.S. obviously kerry is more committed to killing babies than he is to our national security.
3 posted on 08/02/2003 5:12:32 AM PDT by dedicated
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To: Jim Noble
Kerry was pretty clear his anger was not about what the Pope said Catholics should believe, but how they should vote.

In any case, what "morality" is Pope JP2 a subscriber to? He said gay relationships are "evil," which is a word he refused to use to describe Saddam Hussein.

If you think consensual sodomy is worse than systematic mass murder/rape/torture, you aren't a very "moral" person IMO.

4 posted on 08/02/2003 5:14:38 AM PDT by xm177e2 (Stalinists, Maoists, Ba'athists, Pacifists: Why are they always on the same side?)
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To: Jim Noble
``This isn't a matter of political calculation, it's simply a matter of strong personal beliefs,'' Kerry said.

One of his other strong personal beliefs is that he absolutely hates the US military yet in front of every camera or crowd he goes on sickeningly about being a 'Nam Vet (but he usually doesnt mention his phony throwing away of his medals after the war). This guy is a victim of way too much mental masturbation about himself....

5 posted on 08/02/2003 5:16:58 AM PDT by doosee
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To: dedicated
why didn't he tell the Pope to mind his own business when the Pope was making all those anti-war comments

There is definitely a double-standard here. When the Pope is with Kerry, he's a great moral authority. When he's against Kerry, he's a foreign meddler in domestic politics. It looks like the Democrats are in a contest to outdo each other in saying stupid things (but I think Joe Lieberman wins handily with the Supreme Court Justice Kweise Mfume remark...)

6 posted on 08/02/2003 5:17:55 AM PDT by xm177e2 (Stalinists, Maoists, Ba'athists, Pacifists: Why are they always on the same side?)
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To: ninonitti
Bluntly telling the Vatican to stay out of American politics, U.S. Sen. John F. Kerry yesterday said Pope John Paul II ``crossed the line'' by instructing pols to block legalization of gay marriage....A fuming Kerry, taking on his own Catholic Church in the midst of a campaign for president, said Rome should have more respect for America's long-held separation of church and state.

``It is important not to have the church instructing politicians. That is an inappropriate crossing of the line in this country,'' Kerry said.

``Our founding fathers separated church and state in America. It is an important separation,'' he said. ``It is part of what makes America different and special, and we need to honor that as we go forward and I'm going to fight to do that.''

the FOUNDING FATHERS UNLEASHED

  Our Constitution provides the legitimate foundations of this country as a free nation that is of the people and by the people but, we must read beyond it words and read it's authors words and thoughts in order to understand the warnings they have sent through generations to it's application in todays world.
 




warning...

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion...Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
- John Adams, October 11, 1798



warning...

"Have you ever found in history, one single example of a Nation thoroughly corrupted that was afterwards restored to virtue?... And without virtue, there can be no political liberty....Will you tell me how to prevent riches from becoming the effects of temperance and industry? Will you tell me how to prevent luxury from producing effeminacy, intoxication, extravagance, vice and folly?..."

- John Adams, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson


warning...

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."

"The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed."

"Bad men cannot make good citizens. A vitiated state of morals, a corrupted public conscience are incompatible with freedom."

"It is when people forget God that tyrants forge their chains."

- Patrick Henry

The entire argument about sexual behavior is so simple it can be reduced to the following: Should there be any social rules about what sexual activity a human being engages in?

If the answer is no then everyone should just shut up...hetero is okay, cousins are okay, polygamy is okay, bi is okay; gay is okay, 13-year olds are okay, and one or one-hundred-at-a-time are okay, et. al.

However, if a society decides that certain rules about who does whom when and where is functional and perhaps even necessary, all that is left is to decide is WHAT are the rules of sexual behavior and WHO shall make them...simple. Those who follow the 'rules' are then NORMAL and all the rest are PERVERTED or DEVIANT... so very, very simple...you decide.

Sen. John F. Kerry� should study American History and the founders of this nation...he obviously dosn't know it very well...

Van & Katherine Jenerette

www.jenerette.com

7 posted on 08/02/2003 5:19:21 AM PDT by Van Jenerette (Our Republic...If we an keep it!)
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To: doosee
This guy is a victim of way too much mental masturbation about himself....

Great description!

8 posted on 08/02/2003 5:24:29 AM PDT by Van Jenerette (Our Republic...If we an keep it!)
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To: ninonitti
``What one often calls separation of church and state guarantees the religion the right to express its convictions,'' said Monsignor Francis Maniscalco of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. ``To object to religious people's deep moral convictions . . . would also create a problem because it would also (fail to) recognize something the First Amendment guarantees.''

Former Vatican Ambassador Raymond Flynn said Kerry was just wrong. ``I don't see it as crossing any line at all,'' Flynn said. ``Too many Catholic politicians want to have it both ways, they want the Catholic vote but then they go ahead and ignore Catholic teaching.''

I'm not a Catholic so I'm not sure if I should even have a say, but it seem to me that Kerry is wrong, and Monsignor Maniscalco is correct (not to mention Ambassador Flynn).

If one has religious convictions, those convictions ought to guide one's actions, including voting on morally charged issues such as the definition of marriage or abortion.

9 posted on 08/02/2003 5:26:00 AM PDT by Amelia
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To: doosee
If we could just get John Kerry in a private room with a blow-up Kerry doll, we'd never hear from John Kerry again....
10 posted on 08/02/2003 5:26:15 AM PDT by AntiGuv ()
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To: ninonitti
He or Dean on the Democrat ticket would be just wonderful.
11 posted on 08/02/2003 5:28:42 AM PDT by ItisaReligionofPeace ((the original))
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To: ninonitti
Who elected the French-looking candidate pope? Maybe Kerry should start wearing his miter.
12 posted on 08/02/2003 5:29:18 AM PDT by mewzilla
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To: Van Jenerette
I still fondly remember your gunpowder, printing press & bible speech that you gave at that SC Freeper Event.

It was a "goose bumper".

If you have that speech saved as a file, I should would love to have it!

13 posted on 08/02/2003 5:31:08 AM PDT by Seeking the truth (Hired Mercenary - Have Bullhorn - Will Shoutl for Freedom!)
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To: ninonitti
If we're supposed to keep "religion" out of politics, why don't we keep "anti-religion" (the evil left extremist groups) out of politics? Memo to Kerry: STFU
14 posted on 08/02/2003 5:33:50 AM PDT by Imagine
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To: Seeking the truth
If I recall correctly, the Pope was against the Iraqi war. Does my memory serve me correctly when I further recall that many of the demlibliar types in Congress and the media said that Bush should listen to the Pope on this and not go to war? Can anyone pull up some quotes on this issue? and did Kerry back the Pope then?.
15 posted on 08/02/2003 5:35:00 AM PDT by Laverne
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To: ninonitti
..."and many of us who are Catholic voted against him without regard to Catholicism.''

I didn't know this "catsup-for-brains" socialist, horse-faced imbecile was a Catholic.

He could call himself a Catholic, but he has no business receiving Holy Communion.

16 posted on 08/02/2003 5:35:24 AM PDT by JesseHousman
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To: AntiGuv
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press; or the right of the people to peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances".

The Pope is speaking for millions of us and I thank him because, with my Senators, Hitlery and Scummee, I simply don't have a voice.

17 posted on 08/02/2003 5:37:00 AM PDT by Sacajaweau (God Bless Our Troops!!)
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To: ninonitti
The Pope is obviously not familiar with the nuances of political hypocrisy.
18 posted on 08/02/2003 5:38:36 AM PDT by Mind-numbed Robot (Not all things that need to be done need to be done by the government.)
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To: ninonitti
John F. is pro-choice too. That's what we have with "cafeteria" Catholics. They pick and choose which of the Church's cathechism they will follow. I guess for John F. traditional values is like so square. He should explain to the voters where he stands on gay marriage forthrightly and let the chips fall where they may instead of hiding behind the phony subterfuge about "separation of church and state."
19 posted on 08/02/2003 5:39:05 AM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: Van Jenerette
"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here." Patrick Henry

I hadn't seen that quote. Incredible isn't it that in the mainstream America of today, that makes Henry a rightwing fundamentalist Christian bigot.. How far we have come....

20 posted on 08/02/2003 5:39:13 AM PDT by doosee
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To: ninonitti
that raging drunk Ray Flynn.....

You mean Flynn the terrorist who supported the out of control United Mine Workers in Southwest Virginia and the bloody IRA in Northern Ireland? That Ray Flynn?

21 posted on 08/02/2003 5:40:06 AM PDT by bert (Don't Panic!)
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Comment #22 Removed by Moderator

To: JesseHousman
He could call himself a Catholic, but he has no business receiving Holy Communion.

Kerry has choosen his "god" of public office over his Lord

[15] But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD." Jos. 24:15

23 posted on 08/02/2003 5:47:01 AM PDT by apackof2
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To: ninonitti
I guess Teresa Heinz has told her guy to stand on his head like a bottle of ketchup when he's empty of ideas.

And isn't it 'Heinz' that prides itself in being the slow ketchup?

24 posted on 08/02/2003 5:56:07 AM PDT by DaBroasta (GRID will eventually cure homosexuality)
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To: JesseHousman
Well, he's Catholic today. If you recall, there are other days he is Jewish, depending which phase of the election cycle we are in. I forget which days he is a Buddhist. Like his wife's fortune, he has 57 varieties of religion.
25 posted on 08/02/2003 5:56:23 AM PDT by speedy
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To: ninonitti
Kerry is a lost soul, no morals , no courage , no backbone, no Brains, Nothing.
He should get off the public Dole and get a real job.
26 posted on 08/02/2003 6:05:51 AM PDT by chatham
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To: ninonitti
"Kerry, who supports civil unions but opposes the legalization of same-sex marriage, took pains to say, ``I believe in the church'' and ``care about it enormously'' but said church leaders went too far."

Somebody out there a whole lot smarter than I, had better jump on the English parsing between ~civil union~ and ~marriage~ or else the idiots are going to legalize Civil Unions between homosexuals and say it isn't a marriage.

HELP....!!

The left is is ising again..

27 posted on 08/02/2003 6:09:48 AM PDT by OpusatFR
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To: Mind-numbed Robot
And we also must remember that Kerry was a Vietnam veteran who threw away somene elses military decorations while his brothers-in-arms were still fighting over there.

What a piece of sh_t.

28 posted on 08/02/2003 6:12:24 AM PDT by johnny7 (... 'scuse me, I gotta puke.)
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To: ninonitti
Implosion in process.

Hey Kerry how about you politicians staying out moral issues.

Oooooooooops, forgot that once elected they take on the air of royalty.

29 posted on 08/02/2003 6:15:00 AM PDT by ImpBill ("You are either with US or against US!")
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To: chatham
MY SENTIMENTS EXACTLY!!! Here's the sleazy hustler's e-mail address in case you feel like writing:

john_kerry@kerry.senate.gov

Best wishes,
Penny


30 posted on 08/02/2003 6:15:25 AM PDT by Penny
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To: doosee
"This guy is a victim of way too much mental masturbation about himself...."

What a great line!

31 posted on 08/02/2003 6:16:23 AM PDT by ImpBill ("You are either with US or against US!")
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To: ninonitti; GatorGirl; maryz; *Catholic_list; afraidfortherepublic; Antoninus; Aquinasfan; Askel5; ..
Ping.
32 posted on 08/02/2003 6:19:03 AM PDT by narses ("The do-it-yourself Mass is ended. Go in peace" Francis Carindal Arinze of Nigeria)
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To: ninonitti

"Nasty gunshot wound you have here, Senator. How'd this happen?"


33 posted on 08/02/2003 6:19:47 AM PDT by Nick Danger (The views expressed may not actually be views)
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To: apackof2
Kerry has choosen his "god" of public office over his Lord

I respectfully disagree--I think Kerry's actions show that he's serving "his" lord well--the lord of darkness that is. His fire-n-brimstone stump sermons have gone a long way in perverting the useful idiots who worship at the church of the hypocritical donkey.

34 posted on 08/02/2003 6:20:54 AM PDT by DaBroasta (GRID will eventually cure homosexuality)
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To: ninonitti

Seems to me that Bush's strategy of appealing to the Catholic center is paying off. Bush's positioning sets him up nicely for the General Election. Otoh, poor Kerry; he was the fair-haired boy. Now it appears that he's going to lose his ass to Howard Dean. And he's going to lose his ass to Howard Dean because Dean is more convincing as a Lefty.

Primary voters, who are screaming lefties or committed Democrats, are much more likely to vote for someone who approves of Gay unions than a squishy liberal like Kerry. Dean is a committed Liberal who is taking advantage of the Left's hatred of Bush and combining it with the Left's belief in The Radiant Future. Gay Marriage is part of that belief.

Which is fine by me, as Gay Marriage is all set to become a wedge issue, with Bush putting himself squarely in the center of American, and Catholic, understanding of what marriage is supposed to be. Kerry is ticked off because Il Papa has just laid out where Catholics should stand as a matter of faith.

John Kerry, Apostate.

Be Seeing You,

Chris

35 posted on 08/02/2003 6:23:53 AM PDT by section9 (Major Kusanagi is back from vacation, ready to kick the liberal ass....)
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To: ninonitti
OBEY or face the consequences, you mule faced commie SOB!!!!!!!!!!!
36 posted on 08/02/2003 6:24:49 AM PDT by Rome2000 (Convicted felons for Kerry, McCarthy was right!)
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To: Van Jenerette
Bump the quotes...........they go into my quotes.doc file IMMEDIATELY!
37 posted on 08/02/2003 6:28:33 AM PDT by DoctorMichael (>>>>>Liberals Suk. Liberalism Sukz.<<<<<)
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To: section9
The gay marriage Ammendment is going to be the issue in 2004, any rat nominee who doesn't support it is going to be crucified.

Despite what this evil leftist pervert liar says now, don't be surprised if he comes out in support of the ammendment if he gets the nomination.

38 posted on 08/02/2003 6:29:41 AM PDT by Rome2000 (Convicted felons for Kerry, McCarthy was right!)
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To: DaBroasta
Actually we agree, you just phased it differently however either way he will reap what he has sown
39 posted on 08/02/2003 6:29:48 AM PDT by apackof2
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To: ninonitti
When your party demands you diss the pope, you're on th wrong side.
40 posted on 08/02/2003 6:30:41 AM PDT by ChadGore (Kakkate Koi!)
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To: Mind-numbed Robot
If any one group of people should be familiar with the nuances of political hypocrisy it is the Papacy.
41 posted on 08/02/2003 6:30:48 AM PDT by madison10
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To: ninonitti
I find this all very ironic. Anyone remember when JFK was running for President that the big worry was him being under the direction of the Vatican?
42 posted on 08/02/2003 6:33:59 AM PDT by xp38
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To: ninonitti
Note that this account comes from the Boston Herald. The Boston Globe (owned by the New York Times) will paint Kerry as a hero fighting against the evil, homophobic, anti-man-boy-love, spoil-sport Pope.
43 posted on 08/02/2003 6:37:59 AM PDT by Malesherbes
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To: xm177e2
The pretend Catholics will just have to make a decision soon. The voting on the judges is a test of the faith. Many are failing miserably. The men marrying men issue will further test them. They are not upset about votes or rights of men to marry men. They are angry that they are being tested in a very public way on their faith. Lukewarm and pretend Catholics have been outed. Kennedy's, Leahy ,
Pelosi,Daschle, Kerry and others will either walk away from the church or affirm their faith. It is very easy to carry a label of Catholic, Jew or whatever but it is much harder to live it. I believe you will see many angry politicians on both sides of the aisle.
44 posted on 08/02/2003 6:39:27 AM PDT by oldironsides
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To: apackof2
Actually we agree . . .

Absolutely!

45 posted on 08/02/2003 6:42:54 AM PDT by DaBroasta (They're not anti-war, they're just pi$$ed cause they cheated and Gore still lost)
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To: Sacajaweau
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press; or the right of the people to peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances".
The system of the anti-liberty "liberals" is to inflate the "Establishment" clause to such an extent as to, for political purposes, essentially moot the "Free Exercise" clause.

The First Amendment is highly controversial; it couldn't be ratified today, sad to say.

"make no law respecting an Establishment" is far weaker than, "shall not establish." And mention of "Congress" explicitly excludes the state governments and therefore is weaker than a blanket prohibition.
Likewise the "liberal" holds the "freedom of speech, and of the press" to mean not that you and I can talk, and can listen to whom we please. Rather, the liberal wants that clause to mean "the right to be bombarded with liberal propaganda;" conservatives need not apply for a job with public-relations influence.

46 posted on 08/02/2003 6:46:32 AM PDT by conservatism_IS_compassion (The everyday blessings of God are great--they just don't make "good copy.")
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To: dedicated
"...why didn't he tell the Pope to mind his own business when the Pope was making all those anti-war comments obviously aimed at the U.S."

That was my first question, too.

Here's my second question: ~~Why haven't I heard Kerry express this same "moral outrage" about religious leaders voicing support FOR gay marriage? Don't they, too, cross his cherished "line between church and state"?

What an unmitigated hypocrite this John F. Kerry is!

47 posted on 08/02/2003 6:54:52 AM PDT by Right_in_Virginia
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To: Malesherbes
The Boston Globe (owned by the New York Times) will paint Kerry as a hero fighting against the evil, homophobic, anti-man-boy-love, spoil-sport Pope.

Exactement mon ami!!!

Globe headline today: "Panel Backs Gay Bishop" page one above the fold talking about the Episcopal conference out in Minneapolis......and more than a little misleading to boot when you read the piece.

(I think I'm going to start calling these Globe stories Poof Pieces from now on)

48 posted on 08/02/2003 7:02:22 AM PDT by ninonitti
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To: Van Jenerette
Excellent post!

As a Catholic I find it amazing when I hear these incredulous remarks by John Kerry.

It truly shows just how far the Democratic Party has strayed since the 1960's.

Kerry should have more respect for his religion, but I guess that doesn't matter to him anymore.

What an absolute creep he is.

49 posted on 08/02/2003 7:03:40 AM PDT by Northern Yankee (Freedom.... needs a soldier !)
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To: OpusatFR
You are absolutely right. Legally recognized gay-unions differ from marriage in name only. If you grant the legal rights, benefits, responsibilities, obligations, status, etc of marriage onto same-sex unions then you have gay marriage, you're just not using the word marriage. That's why Vermont already has gay marriage. That's why politicians who claim to oppose gay marriage, but support recognizing whatever euphemism is used (civil union, domestic partnership) are phony. Part of me thought the radical gay/left lobby would be happy with this deception, but I should have known better. They are past the point of tolerance and even acceptance. Now they demand the celebration of their lifestyle. Thats why they insist on having the word 'marriage', because it has symbolic value and as such its a way to loudly announce that they are going to shove their unnatural lifestyle down the throats of every person in the country.

It is the institution of marriage that must be protected. It is the concept, the social construct of marriage that must be preserved.
50 posted on 08/02/2003 7:04:24 AM PDT by Aetius
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