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Fully armed Nazi bomber planes 'buried below East Berlin airport'
The Scotsman ^ | July 22, 2003 | Allan Hall

Posted on 07/21/2003 8:17:05 PM PDT by Recourse

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To: Live free or die
[image: JU EF 132]

I think that is a B52, images for which would be very easy to digitize and pass off as "the original prototype's simulation." Afterall, these are images that appear to have been provided to a flight simulator package, many of which include B52 skins and properties.

Here are some (possibly) more realistic images of the JU EF 132:

And the 131:


151 posted on 08/03/2003 11:02:38 PM PDT by risk
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To: JohnBovenmyer; Southack; Burkeman1; WorkingClassFilth; SkyPilot
It's hard to know how to compare kills in different theaters, but don't underrate the Germans.

Yes it is difficult to make any kind of "fair" comparison. Should the destruction on the ground of an enemy aircraft be "sportingly" counted as a "kill"? Is 5 years on continuos flying duty, as the German pilots on the Eastern Front had to do out of necessity, in any way comparable to a tour of one year, as the Yanks and Brits (though I personally know some Eagle Squadron pilots that flew the whole 5 years). Especially considering that the Yank and Brit pilots had the duty of bomber escort and not the easy picken's the Germans had of the Soviet Air Force. Comparison? Perhaps. Perhaps not, but I don't "overate" the Germans as some are want to do.

During the mid-1930's, German agents poured over the patent offices of as many countries as its agents could access. It comes as no surprise to me that they seem, to many of you, as prolific inventors. The realities prove the Germans at being quite adept at reverse engineering, as were the Japanese (the "Zero" engine was an evolved copy of a British Bristol "Jupiter" engine). It is no surprise that the Germans chose to develop the axial flow jet engine, considering the remarkable showing of Charles Parsons, "Turbinia", in 1894. The Turbinia was a steam turbine of axial flow design that propelled the 100 ft. craft to 40 mph on the water. It is not much of a theoretical jump to replace expanding steam with expanding gas from the combustion of kerosene. Drawings of Parsons steam turbine were found at the Jumo Motor Werke by the allies after the war.

As for pilots, the Germans, as far as I am concerned, have a long way to go to compare to the skill and courage of the British pilot Jeffrey Quill and the American, Carroll MacColpin.

Quill was the Spitfires chief development pilot, as well as scoring two kills during the Battle of Britain. Quill was the test pilot that developed the "Spit" from 5,500 lbs. gross, 1050 hp, 8x.303 Browning machine guns in 1940 to the MK14 Spitfires weight of 12,500 lbs. gross, 2,500 hp, and 4x20mm Hisp-Suisa cannon (5 times the "throw weight of 1940). Quill also developed the carrier version of the Spit, the "Seafire". BTW, the first combat encounter between a Spitfire and an Me/Bf109 was on the 15th. of May, 1940, over France. Pilot Officer Alan Deere shot down 3, Me-109's on that day without a loss to his squadron. So much for the "Invincible" Messerschmitt. As for the Focke Wulfe 190, after the Spitfire Mk-9, there was no superior German fighter in the skies over Europe until the too late Me-262 (Yes, I know, it was all Hitler's fault).

Carroll McColpin was from California and was the American Commander of No. 133 Eagle Squadron. On Oct. 2nd. '42, McColpin went spinner to tail with Werner Molders. The British combat report claims the aerial combat lasted over half an hour. The result was a draw. McColpin, when bounced by Molders was already out of ammunition. He had no choice but to "out fly" the German "Ace".

So, keep it up, you "Kraut Lovers". I can go spinner to rudder with your claims of "German superiority", and if not shoot them down, argue them to a draw.

152 posted on 08/04/2003 10:29:06 PM PDT by elbucko (Achtung, Spitfire!)
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To: elbucko
Great points- but I think American military training will still teach the battles of Manstein and Rommel and other German leaders in WWII against the Russians and even us for years to come. And German Aviation was great. If they got the ideas from the US or Britain- so what- they devolped them- we didn't.
153 posted on 08/04/2003 10:37:07 PM PDT by Burkeman1 (If you see ten troubles comin down the road, Nine will run into the ditch before they reach you.)
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To: elbucko
Thanks for the reply.

Hardly a Kraut-lover, I simply respect the German technical expertise.

You've made a good case over certain aircraft, but I have yet to see a point for point rebuttal of the 30 or so points I made off the top of the noggin.

We won, and that's good. They, however, were spookily advance in far too many fields to make me comfortable. You can claim that they were all allied ideas if it makes you feel good, but my mind works a little more rationally than that.

Thanks.
154 posted on 08/04/2003 11:10:47 PM PDT by WorkingClassFilth (Defund NPR, PBS and the LSC.)
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To: WorkingClassFilth
"We won, and that's good. They, however, were spookily advance in far too many fields to make me comfortable."

The Germans had two innovative designs in production during WW2 that had no allied counterpart: The V-2 ICBM and the V-3 stationary supergun. But even for those two technologies, the Germans stole the V-2 hook, line, and sinker...right down to copying American professor Robert Goddard's gyroscopic control and engine venturi...and the V-3 was simply an electricly-triggered version of a pyro-staged American Civil war cannon.

But for everything else, the allies had the same or a superior version. For the German V-1, the U.S. had the JB-10. For the ME262, the U.S. had the P-80.

Where the Germans fell remarkably short, however, was in the areas of mass production, encryption, computers, and atomic warfare, all of which were dominated by the U.S. and UK.

Moreover, the illusion of German technology is primarily due to the fact that the Germans lost the war and had **all** of their top secrets exposed. In contrast, the U.S. was able to maintain its secrets (well, except that the atomic warfare was a bit hard to hide, and the field of computers was so eagerly being pursued in U.S. research centers).

155 posted on 08/05/2003 5:02:05 AM PDT by Southack (Media bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: Consort; JohnBovenmyer; Southack; Burkeman1; WorkingClassFilth; SkyPilot
Do you realize that the combined total of aircraft claimed destroyed by the 105 Luftwaffe pilots, listed in your post, totals 15,422 aircraft? Did you know that the total war production of the P-51 "Mustang" was 15,580 total aircraft? The P-47 "Thunderbolt", 15,660 aircraft.

It doesn't take a German Rocket Scientist to suspect that these claimed number of kills, from a hundred Nazi pilots is equivalent to one aircraft's entire production, is a little exaggerated. The only explanation, that makes any sense of these claims, is that Hitler did not like to hear bad news.

156 posted on 08/11/2003 4:57:35 PM PDT by elbucko ("Za vor iss not goink too vell, mein fuhrer".)
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To: elbucko
I don't know if these posts can help you guys settle this:

http://www.angelfire.com/ct/ww2europe/stats.html

http://personal.trxinc.com/dpixler/

The second post- if you scroll down a bit says the following:

"U.S. ARMY AIR FORCE CASUALTIES TOTALED 120,000, OF WHOM 40,000 DIED IN COMBAT. ANOTHER 15,000 DIED IN TRAINING OR IN AIRCRAFT ACCIDENTS IN THE UNITED STATES. AIRCRAFT LOSSES WERE 65,200, ONE THIRD OF THESE WERE DESTROYED IN CRASHES IN THE STATES. "

Don't know if that helps.
157 posted on 08/11/2003 5:10:30 PM PDT by Burkeman1 ((If you see ten troubles comin down the road, Nine will run into the ditch before they reach you.))
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To: elbucko
Do you realize that the combined total...

Yes.

... is a little exaggerated.

Yes.

...Hitler did not like to hear bad news.

Yes, and?

158 posted on 08/11/2003 5:11:27 PM PDT by Consort
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To: elbucko
If you will notice- in my previous post- that paragraph states that 120,000 died serving in the US Army Air Force. But only 40'000 in combat? But only a third due to accidents in the US. Did the rest die in Accidents in Europe? And doesn't that number of dead airmen seem a bit high since we only lost about 425,000 in WWII over all?
159 posted on 08/11/2003 5:43:09 PM PDT by Burkeman1 ((If you see ten troubles comin down the road, Nine will run into the ditch before they reach you.))
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To: Burkeman1
"U.S. ARMY AIR FORCE CASUALTIES TOTALED 120,000, OF WHOM 40,000 DIED IN COMBAT.

The US Army Air Corps fought all around the world, not just Europe. To imply that proof of the Luftwaffe's prowess is contained in the 40,000 combat fatalities statistic, is a specious argument at best. It still begs the question that if the Luftwaffe was so good, why did they loose the war. The more likely answer is that, as the Germans lost the air superiority they had at the beginning of the war and could not regain it, the only thing left to do was to lie. Just as we saw in "Baghdad Bob's" reports last April, that; "Iraqi armored units were turning back the American tanks", while the Abrams's tanks were rolling into Baghdad behind him.

160 posted on 08/12/2003 1:32:13 PM PDT by elbucko
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To: Consort
Yes, and?

Yes, and posting the exaggerated Luftwaffe claims is not unlike the obstinate posts of those Southerners that refer to the Civil War as; "The War of Northern Aggression". In fact, the South struck first, and in fact, the Luftwaffe claims are preposterous. Your list would not pass the test of Occam's razor.

Yes and.... Next Veterans Day, attend services at a cemetery and find a marker that has an Army Air Corps insignia on it and a date of death between 1942 and 45. Take out your little list of Nazi victories and read that list of kills over the grave. If you can.

161 posted on 08/12/2003 1:58:29 PM PDT by elbucko
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To: elbucko
...and posting the exaggerated Luftwaffe claims...

Most of us would agree that it's a list of Nazi exaggerated claims and is just part of the other comments and images about the Nazis on this thread. What is your problem?

... is not unlike the obstinate posts of those Southerners that refer to the Civil War as; "The War of Northern Aggression".

First you attack me and then you attack Southerners. Who are you going after next?

...the Luftwaffe claims are preposterous.

Yes, that's all you had to say instead of going into the attack mode.

Next Veterans Day,...

Just who do you think you are questioning other peoples patriotism?

162 posted on 08/12/2003 4:57:24 PM PDT by Consort
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To: Consort
"Most of us would agree that it's a list of Nazi exaggerated claims..."

No, most don't. Three other posters on this thread regarding the Nazi scores, claim that they are true and not exeragerated.

"First you attack me and then you attack Southerners. Who are you going after next?"

I used that as an example. You must be a Southerner.

"the Luftwaffe claims are preposterous.
Yes, that's all you had to say instead of going into the attack mode."

That's all I did say until the Jr. Luftwaffe jumped in and claimed that the scores were factuall true "confirmed" kills.

"Just who do you think you are questioning other peoples patriotism?"

Start breathing through a paper bag and calm youself. I'm not dissing your patriotism, but your lack of judgement in posting bogus data. As I recall, it wasn't even on topic.

163 posted on 08/12/2003 5:36:33 PM PDT by elbucko
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To: elbucko
We don't need self appointed judgemental "Thread Police" like you telling us what we should or should not post.
164 posted on 08/12/2003 5:50:38 PM PDT by Consort
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To: Consort
According to Die Atombombe und das Dritte Reich. Das Geheimnis des Dreiecks Arnstadt - Wechmar - Ohrdruf [The Atom Bomb and the Third Reich: The Secret of the Arnstadt - Wechmar - Ohrdruf Triangle, by Edgar Mayer and Thomas Mehner, Nazi Germany succeeded in causing a nuclear explosion at an army base in Thuringia on March 16, 1945. I haven't seen the book, so I have no idea what evidence the authors put forward.
165 posted on 08/12/2003 6:12:03 PM PDT by aristeides
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To: aristeides
I haven't seen the book,...

I never even heard of it.

166 posted on 08/12/2003 6:16:49 PM PDT by Consort
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To: Consort
We don't need self appointed judge mental "Thread Police" like you telling us what we should or should not post.

.I really don't care what you post. It's a free forum, subject only to JR. If it's junk like your kill list, that is not the least bit related to bombs under an East German airport, go ahead and make an ass out of yourself.

As for me, I know that these claims are Nazi's bragging about the young Americans they think they killed. And not for freedom, but for sport and for Der Fuhrer. It wasn't a game of "Flight Simulator" for the allied aircrews. The blood was real.

167 posted on 08/12/2003 6:36:00 PM PDT by elbucko
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To: Consort
I never even heard of it.

Well it MUST be true. Its good stuff about the Nazi's and they wouldn't print it, if it wasn't true!

168 posted on 08/12/2003 6:40:09 PM PDT by elbucko
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To: RoughDobermann
"Is that the stretched 190?"

Yes. It's the "D" model. Came out late. Wasn't used much. Had a liquid-cooled (V12?) engine instead of the 14-cylinder radial.

169 posted on 08/12/2003 7:05:36 PM PDT by nightdriver
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To: elbucko
Well it MUST be true.

Then read it and report back to us.

170 posted on 08/12/2003 9:10:14 PM PDT by Consort
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To: fish hawk
Erich Hartmann would take the 109 and hand you your behind. The difference in performance between the Me109, FW190D-9, and the Mustang are insignificant if one pilot is vastly better than another.
171 posted on 08/12/2003 9:16:27 PM PDT by Tailback
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To: elbucko
I really don't care what you post.

Then why do you keep commenting on and making a fool of yourself?

It's a free forum, subject only to JR.

Remember that next time.

172 posted on 08/12/2003 9:17:06 PM PDT by Consort
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To: Tailback
I agree but the mustang is prettier.
173 posted on 08/12/2003 10:04:39 PM PDT by fish hawk
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To: fish hawk
I agree but the mustang is prettier.

On that point I cannot disagree with you. I read a quote that if a pilot wanted to impress the girls he'd say he flew Mustangs. If he wanted to survive a dogfight he'd fly P-47's. The Mustang has to be the absolute hands down most beautiful piston engined fighter invented, but if I was flying back then I think I'd like that big reliable air-cooled radial engine in front of me.
174 posted on 08/12/2003 10:15:46 PM PDT by Tailback
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To: Recourse
Well, that finally answers the questions of all those left wing Democrats in 1945 who demanded to know "where are the fully armed planes we were told about"????

175 posted on 08/12/2003 10:22:05 PM PDT by Fledermaus
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To: Recourse

Berlin airport denies 'live bombs' claim
24 July 2003

BERLIN - Airport authorities in Berlin have denied published claims that "thousands of live bombs" from World War II lie buried underneath the city's second-largest airport.

"Just like Loch Ness monster sightings, every summer these stories surface about bunkers under Berlin filled with toxic materials," said airport spokesman Burkhard Kieker.


The latest spate of reports followed a story in Der Spiegel magazine claiming that construction of Berlin's proposed Berlin-Brandenburg International Airport could be stymied by underground toxic waste.

The story cited "newly discovered" East German Stasi secret police files which purportedly indicated that war surplus munitions and even some old aircraft with fuel still in their tanks might have been dumped into underground bunkers immediately after the war.

The new airport would replace Berlin's three over-crowded airports: Tegel in former West Berlin, Schoenefeld in former East Berlin and historic Tempelhof airport near the centre of the city.

"We've been looking into these reports since the early 1990s," Kieker said, "and so far all that has been found are a few crumbling underground storage rooms half-submerged in brackish water."
176 posted on 08/12/2003 10:27:56 PM PDT by wolficatZ (___><))))*>_____\0/________)
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To: Consort
Then read it and report back to us.

I don't have to. I already know the ending.

177 posted on 08/13/2003 8:00:34 PM PDT by elbucko
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To: Southack
This is totally ridiculous. There were no 44 divisions on the beachheads. There was only ONE beachhead with a (ONE) first line division, and that was Omaha. The British even walked without hardly getting fired on on some of their beaches. Most of the units in France were 2nd rate. And you seem to remember the little air superiority thing. So your claims are totally laughable.
178 posted on 09/17/2003 3:59:01 AM PDT by anotherGerman
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To: indcons

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179 posted on 06/01/2009 4:04:49 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/____________________ Profile updated Monday, January 12, 2009)
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To: Live free or die

The Germans never developed laminar flow wings. I am not sure about high octane fuel either. As I recall they also didn’t have drop tanks or as good bomb sights. They also lagged behind in radar development. They also didn’t understand strategic bombing or implement it.IMHO


180 posted on 06/02/2009 4:58:15 AM PDT by Citizen Tom Paine
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