Split Decision: Supreme court upholds grad policy, strikes Undergrad

MSNBC Live | 06-23-03

[Brian S]

Supreme Court rules in favor of U. of Michigan Admissions Policy

[Luis Gonzalez]

"Since our town is 95% white (according to the state economic development arm), are we racists?"

Yes.

[GB]

I'm coming in after 500 posts on this subject and I of course haven't read them all ... but my .02 on affirmative action in general is that it's not 1963 anymore. In those bad old days, I can see, irregardless of whether it's a conservative position or not, that some things may have needed to be done. But that is two generations ago. I submit that any minority, male or female, that is of age in the year 2003 can be whatever he or she wants to be, if he or she REALLY wants to. And that's the catch here.

The thing I've always asked my liberal friends who support affirmative action is "where's the stopping point ... will there ever be a time when it can end?"

They're usually silent, but I got my answer years ago when I saw the late (and not so lamented) William Kunstler on a panel show and he was asked the same question ... "Can there ever be a stopping point to affirmative action?" ... and he said no, never because, "Whites can never, to the end of time, atone for the evil of slavery."

So that's the bottom line, at the core it's not about advancement or opportunities but about payback and revenge for stuff that happened 150 years ago.

[Prof Engineer]

ping

[Hostage]

This is partly accurate, but landowners paid property taxes in proportion to their land holdings and valuation.

The problem I wrestle with is the tratment of the collective gathering of displaced farmers into factories during the industrial age. The rise of the likes of Andrew Carnegie and J.P. Morgan meant no opportunity save marriage to the boss's daughter. Everything was owned by the capitalist. Where workers shopped for food, rented their dwellings, sought medical attention, etc was controlled by the Company. Life was at the mercy of moguls of capitalism, hence the rise of anarchists and socialistic theories.

Carnegie's great battle was with the union as was Ford's. This battle continues to this day. The rugged individualism and independence of the tax-paying farmer was lost, supplanted by the Company's rules.

Life under FDR improved slowly as people adjusted to the new deal. However, the chickens have come home to roost in this age of entitlement.

[ModernDayCato]

Wow..so racial diversity trumps right of association? That's front page news. Just out of curiousity I looked at 10 towns in my county (more than half). None is less than 90% white, including the larger cities.

I guess we're just a county of racists, huh?

Still waiting for the logic behind your yes answer. Take your time.

[Luis Gonzalez]

"That there were people here before the English colonists came is true, but irrelevant."

Telling.

So, the people now here should be equally as irrelevant to the newly arrived.

It's after all, the central idea behind the model you're so supportive of.

[Luis Gonzalez]

"I guess we're just a county of racists, huh?"

You shouldn't be so hard on yourselves, I am sure that the fact that your county does not reflect of the remainder of the country as far as its ethnic make up is simply a fluke.

Or maybe, it proves that where only property owners vote, minorities are not welcomed.

[Hostage]

Please note "irregardless" is not a word, though regardless is. Also as to you conclusion it is about advancement and opportunities of those less qualified but enabled because of their politics. But those advancements and opportunities are oriented to attaining power over others, not serving the interests of society. Revenge and payback are but arguments to support the power grab.

[aristeides]

Here's a link to Novak's column on Olson, the White House, and the amicus briefs.

[TLBSHOW]

bttt

[Lady Eileen]

Well said...I am really tired of this tyranny.

[sweetliberty]

Does this mean they'll be going after the Arabs for reparations too? And what about other slaves? Historically, not all slaves have been black. As I understand it, they came to be preferred for their heartiness, their ability to tolerate prolonged exposure to sunlight, and their resistance to many diseases that plagued other racial types. And it is interesting to me that so little mention is ever made of the large number of black slavetraders in Africa.

Oh well, it is an interesting study, but does nothing more, in my opinion, than reinforce the fact that the entire racial argument based on history is flawed and is arbitrary at best. It has nothing to do with justice or fairness and everything to do with political power and financial gain. It would certainly be wrong for you to be sent to prison for a murder committed by your great-grandfather, and it is just as wrong for an entire society to have to pay for injustices they had no part of. Even those who are direct descendents of slaveholders, a minuscule number in proportion to the population anyway, are not themselves slaveholders and never have been. Neither are those who demand special treatment slaves nor have they ever been. They once had the opportunity to return to their native Africa and they declined, having discovered abundance here and the promise of a new life. They have enjoyed the fruit of the nation's labors as much as anybody and it simply cannot in any way be justified giving them special consideration just because their ancestors happened to choose to stay in this country and breed. It is a slap in the face to the entire society, and most of all to those blacks who hold to the American ideal of freedom and equality, who believe in earning what you have and taking pride in your accomplishments. Academic opportunity and access to jobs should not exclude anyone, but they should be based on merit, regardless of race. What is the motivation for a black man or woman to strive for excellence in his chosen field of study or career when another black man or woman can come along and achieve the same thing for simply existing in a black skin? It's ludicrous.

And what about those who are post-war immigrants from African nations? Why should they also come under the banner of the historically poor, wronged blacks? I suspect even many of them see their "brothers in skin only" as a bunch of spoiled ne'er do wells who would rather be parasites on a society rather than actually have to strive to succeed on their own merit like everybody else.

[The Westerner]

No, I'm not. I was actually talking to you. And wanted to offer some intellectual support. What worries me a great deal about the racial diversity in my own neighborhood (extensive) is that the immigrants do not grasp the arguments we are making. They have no understanding of the melting pot. It isn't taught in grade school to their kids anymore. Much of history is not taught. History is a yawner now.

Do you remember Thomas Jefferson's argument for free education? So the populace will be educated about the Great System in order to keep the nation free. Well, you don't have to look for a conspiracy to see what has happened. It started in the late 19th C. when our young educated scholars spent their formative intellectual years in Germany or studying under German, Continentalist philosophers. These scholars were educated away from the ideas that made this country unique, as you or someone else said earlier, the ideas of John Locke and the tradition of the Anglo-Saxon system. Once these ideas were abandonned for the German ideals, we were on the way to statism. It took 100 years. But it wasn't a conspiracy, per se.

I'm afraid that arguing intellectual ideas with Americans today is unproductive, since they haven't been taught the ability to think conceptually. They have been taught certain ideas as axiomatic, e.g., civil rights, and cannot go deeper than that.

[msdrby]

Well Put.

[ModernDayCato]

Actually, I plugged the demographics of my county into the 'Find a Neighborhood' feature of realtor.com, and was able to find the same demographics in every state I put in (I put in Florida, Texas, Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, Washington, Nevada, Idaho, Illinois and New Mexico - I picked a big city in each state. Any one will do.).

I guess we're just a country full of racists. Again, I'm just curious -- could you explain your logic for calling all of us racists?

Also, I'm not sure about the property owner voting stuff in any town but mine. The wierd thing is that I live in the ultra-liberal Northeast, in a solidly liberal county and town. Guess libs are especially racist. Wow...so much enlightenment today.

[CatoRenasci]

Or, as Bob Heinlein wrote: TANSTAAFL! or There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.

There is nothing inherently racist in a property qualification for voting, if there is no racial qualification for owning property. I don't think race is a valid criterion for anything in public life. I suppose that individuals are entitled to take race (or anything else, for that matter) into account in how they order their private affairs.

[TexKat]

President Applauds Supreme Court Decision

Statement by the President

I applaud the Supreme Court for recognizing the value of diversity on our Nation's campuses. Diversity is one of America's greatest strengths. Today's decisions seek a careful balance between the goal of campus diversity and the fundamental principle of equal treatment under the law.

My Administration will continue to promote policies that expand educational opportunities for Americans from all racial, ethnic, and economic backgrounds. There are innovative and proven ways for colleges and universities to reflect our diversity without using racial quotas. The Court has made clear that colleges and universities must engage in a serious, good faith consideration of workable race-neutral alternatives. I agree that we must look first to these race-neutral approaches to make campuses more welcoming for all students.

Race is a reality in American life. Yet like the Court, I look forward to the day when America will truly be a color-blind society. My Administration will continue to work toward this important goal.

[ModernDayCato]

You are absolutely right. Unfortunately I lost my passion for arguing those points, as I found it futile.

As is evidenced by our friend Luis, the Marxists have successfully divided the people of this country into groups, further destroying the individualism that was uniquely American.

And I can no longer fight it, because I have absolutely no patience for people like Luis, even though I understand that it's not (completely) his fault. He is intellectually lazy.

[ModernDayCato]

Absolutely right.

[rwfromkansas]

wimpy?