Icy Claim That Water Has Memory

New Scientist ^ | 6-11-2003 | Lionel Milgrom

[keithtoo]

As I get older, I find my memory is more cloudy than it used to be. So, I guess, clouds being water in vaporous form, that this may all be true.

[Libertarianize the GOP]

ping

[boris]

10-30 grams per cc is an absurdly HIGH concentration.

I hope they ment micrograms or picograms or something.

Innumerate reporters.

--Boris

[tictoc]

A common HTML glitch, it was ten to the minus 30 in the original article.

[Old Professer]

Rey decided to test samples that had been diluted down to a notional 10-30 grams per cubic centimetre

Something is seriously wrong here, my Lange's Handbook states that a deci-normal solution of sodium chloride is only .005845 grams per cc of 1/10 normal solution so to accept the rest of this sentence, - way beyond the point when any ions of the original substance could remain boggles my little mind.

10-30 grams per cc seems to me to be pretty heavy.

[Old Professer]

10^-30 does look more reasonable.

[AdmSmith]

I would not put my 2 cents on this (yet). Water/ice is a very interesting thing with at least 11 phases. see here

http://www.cmmp.ucl.ac.uk/people/finney/soi.html

some more experiments please.

[dark_lord]

One reason that there are anomolous results in things (Bell's Theorem, Homeopathy, etc.) is that the underlying assumption is that we are dealing with particles -- little balls that have simple attributes like electric charge by which they interact. But of course the reality is quite different. P-brane theory indicates that there are many more than just 3 physical dimensions (probably 10 or 11).

So take Bell's Theorem as an example. A layman's explanation of the theorem might be: "No local deterministic hidden-variable theory is capable of reproducing the results of quantum mechanics. [In other words] quantum potential MUST be non-local for it to work. Another way of looking at it is particles must be connected at superluminal speeds. (Hence why Einstein didn't like it...)". Now in a 3D reality this is an issue. But in a 10D or 11D reality it isn't, because those "particles" are part of nD (where n=10 or 11) structures. Thus even though the particles might be separated in 3D space by a distance that would violate the speed of light for information transfer, and yet we know (from experiment) that such information transfer does occur, if those particles are not truly separated (as they appear in 3D) but are really still connected (in nD) then the resolution of how such information "transfer" becomes feasible.

So here we have an experiment that demonstrates that yes, there is something "there" in homeopathy. In a 3D reality homeopathy is junk, a fake, a fraud, a scam. But we don't live in a 3D reality. Therefore, there may be "memory" in the higher order components of an nD structure that would not be possible in a 3D structure. Now, does this experiment "prove" homeopathy? No. It merely indicates that more experiments should be done in this area -- first to validate that the results of this experiement are reproducible, and if so, then to do some more experiments to see what the heck is going on.

[Ernest_at_the_Beach]

Thanks for the ping! Hmmm!

OFFICIAL BUMP(TOPIC)LIST

[jnarcus]

I'll put more value on the comments made by the fellow with the expertise in water and hydrogen bonding. Expertise in thermoluminescence , while interesting, says that this fellow is an expert in a test regime not on its meaning. This will turn out to be as fleeting as cold fusion

[AdmSmith]

One reason that there are anomolous results in things (Bell's Theorem, Homeopathy, etc.) is that the underlying assumption is that we are dealing with particles -- little balls that have simple attributes like electric charge by which they interact. But of course the reality is quite different. P-brane theory indicates that there are many more than just 3 physical dimensions (probably 10 or 11).</>

You must be joking Mr. Dark_Lord!

[Paradox]

Hey, those scientists should take it easy there.. don't wanna have life imitating art.

[dark_lord]

You must be joking Mr. Dark_Lord!

Yes, I meant M-brane, not P-brane, sorry.

[Physicist]

If dilution doesn't remove the effect of the salt, how ever did they clean the beaker in which they ran the tests? Surely it must have touched the pitch of undistilled water at some point in its life, which means it once contained some concentration of salt. Anything they did to it from then on was strictly a matter of successive dilution...and yet, they managed to get a "null result" from distilled water.

Hmmm....

[PatrickHenry]

If dilution doesn't remove the effect of the salt, how ever did they clean the beaker in which they ran the tests?

If you hadn't gone and done that, this thread could have continued for hundreds of posts.

[AdmSmith]

You must be joking Mr. Dark_Lord! Yes, I meant M-brane, not P-brane, sorry.

I do not think that string theory has anything to do with Homeopathy as you write about in your previous post. That is why I write about joking.

[blam]

"P-brane theory indicates that there are many more than just 3 physical dimensions (probably 10 or 11)."

I've read theories that electro-magnetism is the consequence of something that's going on in the 10th dimension. Hmmmm

[blam]

"I would not put my 2 cents on this (yet). Water/ice is a very interesting thing with at least 11 phases.

I read an interesting article not to long ago about ice that is formed in the vaccum of deep space is flexible and will actually flow.

[dark_lord]

Most "articles" on homeopathy are self serving attemps by new age scam artist snake oil salesmen to sell "potions" to the gullible. That does not invalidate the concepts of homeopathy.

What is homeopathy?

Dr Samuel Hahnemann published his theory of homeopathy (in 1810, so this is not something new), from the Greek homoios (same) and pathos (suffering).

What is the approach?

Remedies are diluted on the decimal scale (x) with a dilution factor of 1:10, or on the centesimal scale (c) with a dilution factor of 1:100. A decimal dilution of 6x is said to equal one part in a million; roughly equivalent to a pinch of salt in a bath of water. On the centesimal scale, a 12c potency is comparable to a pinch of salt in the Atlantic Ocean. After each dilution, the mixture is shaken vigorously (known as succussion) to transfer ‘energy’ from the substance and potentiate its healing properties. According to one theory, the diluted liquid keeps an electromagnetic ‘footprint’ or ‘memory’ of the original substance.

Now, in a 3D Newtonian worldview, this is clearly bullsh*t. But of course, we don't live in a 3D world. The relationship between M-brane theory and homeopathy is that the "deeper structures" are impacted by the changes to the 3D interface. The question is, is this true? The only way to determine its validity is by experiment. An nD reality perspective admits that homeopathy might have some validity, therefore experiments to validate it are required. A 3D perspective starts from the a priori perspective that it is a scam and bad science, and no one wants to do the experiments because of course no scientist wants to be a National Enquirer, World Weekly News, trailer park kind of scientist.