CONCEALED WEAPONS - Many licensees held in crimes Many licensees held in crimes

Springfield(MO) News-Leader ^ | 05-19-03 | Tom Curran

[JCG]

About 215,000 Texans are licensed to carry concealed weapons. The state concedes that more than 400 were licensed despite prior convictions and more than 3,000 other licensees have since been arrested.

The largest category of problem licensees involves those who committed crimes after getting their state concealed-gun permits. The cases represent domestic disputes, road rage, drunkenness, carelessness and bad judgment under stress.

[JCG]

This sounds like a pantload. Anyone have facts to refute?

America's Fifth Column ... watch Steve Emerson/PBS documentary JIHAD! In America
Download 8Mb File Here (Requires RealPlayer)

Who is Steve Emerson?

[JCG]

Oops. Tom Curran was not the author of this letter. William King was.

[proxy_user]

The simple solution, although many gun owners wouldn't be to happy about it, is to require liability insurance.

Yes, I know all the arguments. Yes, the right to drive is not guaranteed in the Constitution.

But this would take the decision out of the government's hands. If someone will insure you, then it's very probable you're a responsible citizen.

[jlogajan]

Actually, they don't mention any gun related crimes, just crimes before or after getting permits. Apparently those are "disqualifying" crimes, but not necessarily anything related to actual gun use in the commission of a crime.

[jscd3]

Anyone have facts to refute?

Well, since the author fails to sight a single source for his assercions, I think that he should be the one producing some facts. Like, what state source indicates that 3000 CC permit holders have been arrested? Since the total number of permits pulled in Florida in the first 7 years of concealed carry was something like 17 out of over 204,000 permits, and practically all of these for bs, non threatening, non-criminal tech violations, (source: Representative Ron Silver (member HCI), interview on TV news program CBN 4/1/94, as sightedd in Guns, Crime, and Freedom page 37), I'd say that his numbers sound pretty bogus.

Sounds like just another drive-by anti-gun letter to me. Or maybe he's practicing writing copy for CNN?

[coloradan]

You don't need a concealed-carry law to have a gun in your home for protection.

IF your a shut-in, this might be fine. But for those people who have to or wish to leave their homes, what should they do? Be defenseless against criminals all the time?

[gieriscm]

One fact is that in a self-defense shooting, a permit holder may end up arrested while the LEO's determine exactly what happened. This is SOP in many jurisdictions.

A more valid statistic is how many permit-holders are convicted of a crime that would prohibit them from retaining a CHL.

[FreedomCalls]

Go here.

	2001 Conviction Rates of Concealed Handgun License Holders
	OFFENSE	Conviction Count of Licensed Individuals*		Conviction Count of Non-Licensed Individuals**		Percentage of Total Convictions Committed by Licensed Individuals
	MURDER (Title 5, Chapter 19)	1		157		0.63%
	KIDNAPPING (Title 5, Chapter 20)	0		124		0.00%
	SEXUAL ASSAULT (Title 5, Chapter 21)	9		1,359		0.66%
	ROBBERY (Title 7, Chapter 29)	0		1,360		0.00%
	AGGRAVATED ASSAULT (Title 5, Chapter 22)	17		2,259		0.75%
	ASSAULT (Title 5, Chapter 22)	54		17,309		0.31%
	TERRORISTIC THREAT (Title 5, Chapter 22)	5		1,229		0.41%
	BURGLARY (Title 7, Chapter 30)	1		5,675		0.02%
	INDECENCY WITH A CHILD (Title 5, Chapter 22)	19		929		2.00%
	INDECENT EXPOSURE (Title 5, Chapter 22)	5		543		0.91%
	FAIL OR REFUSE TO DISPLAY CONCEALED HANDGUN LICENSE (Subchapter H)	0		0		0.00%
	UNLAWFULLY CARRYING HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER (Title 10, Chapter 46)	25		0		100.00%
	UNLAWFULLY CARRYING WEAPON (Title 10, Chapter 46)	22		2,905		0.75%
	POSSESSION OF COMPONENTS OF EXPLOSIVES (Title 10, Chapter 46)	0		4		0.00%
	UNLAWFUL  POSSESSION OF FIREARM BY FELON (WEAPONS FREE ZONE) (Title 10, Chapter 46)	0		1		0.00%
	DEADLY CONDUCT DISCHARGE FIREARM (Title 10, Chapter 46)	1		102		0.97%
	HOAX BOMBS (Title 10, Chapter 46)	0		2		0.00%
	MAKE FIREARM ACCESSIBLE TO CHILD DEATH/SERIOUS BODILY INJURY (Title 10, Chapter 46)	0		5		0.00%
	HARASSMENT (Title 5, Chapter 22)	21		1,013		2.03%
	COERCE SOLICIT INDUCE GANG MEMBERSHIP (Title 5, Chapter 22)	0		94		0.00%
	TOTAL CONVICTED OFFENSES	180		35,070		0.51064%
	*Individuals that held active Texas Concealed Handgun Licenses at the time of arrest
	**Individuals that did not hold an active Texas Concealed Handgun License at the time of the arrest.

---

You can contact the Concealed Handgun Licensing Section at :

Concealed Handgun Licensing Section
Texas Department of Public Safety
P O Box 4143
Austin, Texas 78765-4143
Phone: (512) 424-7293 or (512) 424-7294
Helpline: (800) 224-5744

[Luke Skyfreeper]

This sounds like a pantload. Anyone have facts to refute?

Yes. Sturdevant. William Sturdevant, I believe, but in any case I've got the last name right.

Sturdevant did about a 50 or 60 page study on Texas CHL holders. A search of the internet should turn it up.

I may search for it myself after a bit, because this is in my home town paper, and I may write a letter to refute it.

[sit-rep]

Bad Idea.

Insurance companies(some), go by credit reports. I would not like the idea of a poorer person, are a guy with big bucks who suddenly has problems, not be insurable. No, let's not bring in another headache...

[husky ed]

Does it say how many of these criminals committed their crimes with guns?

Also how many crimes were committed by people with drivers licences?

[pwatson]

As I recall not one arrest for using the gun for a crime, not one. Only thing I know of was an idiot who went to the edge of town to target practice on a tree inside the city limits on a county road from the road. The Texas Conceal Carry have fewer charges for the use of a gun than Texas Peace Officers. As far as I know not one has used the gun during the commission of a crime. This is what the Liberals screamed would happen, Wild West gun fights in the street. Well it never happened. And most people who take the certification class learn all the legal requirements of when you can legally shoot someone, only to protect your or another person’s life from immediate death by a Democrat, oops I mean a Criminal.

[husky ed]

That's what I meant to ask. How many CCW holder's used a gun to commit a crime?

[pwatson]

" 'I'm detecting that I'm eating a lot of crow on this issue,' Harris County District Attorney John Holmes recently professed. Holmes's jurisdiction, the third most populous county in the United States, includes Houston. Holmes was one of many who predicted that 'blood would run in the streets' when the Texas concealed-carry law came into effect 14 months ago. It hasn't happened. In fact, with 112,000 new concealed-carry permits issued, there have been all of 57 'incidents' recorded among licensees, mostly, according to The Texas Lawyer, involving possessing while intoxicated or failing to conceal the weapon. Eating crow is 'not necessarily something I like to do,' Holmes told The Texas Lawyer, 'but I'm doing it on this.' ", from 'THE CLOSED AMERICAN MIND: From the Hip', by Daniel J. Poslby in the 24Mar97 issue of the National Review.
"I lobbied against the law in 1993 and 1995 because I thought it would lead to wholesale armed conflict. That hasn't happened. All the horror stories I thought would come to pass didn't happen. No bogeyman. I think it's worked out well, and that says good things about the citizens who have permits. I'm a convert." -- Glenn White, President of the Dallas Police Association, Dallas Morning News, December 23, 1997.

"As we have seen in other states and had predicted would occur in Texas, all the fears of the naysayers have not come to fruition. A lot of critics argued that the law-abiding citizens couldn't be trusted... But the facts do speak for themselves. None of these horror stories have materialized." -- Sheriff David Williams, Tarrant County, TX, Fort Worth Telegram, 7/17/96.

"Allowing citizens to carry concealed firearms deters violent crimes and it appears to produce no increase in accidental deaths. If those states which did not have right to carry concealed gun provisions had adopted them in 1992, approximately 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes and over 60,000 aggravated assaults would have been avoided yearly." -- Professor John R. Lott, Jr., and David B. Mustard, University of Chicago.

"The facts are in and the record is clear: Right to Carry gives law enforcement, their families and our communities real protection from violent criminals." -- James J. Fotis, Executive Director, Law Enforcement Alliance of America.

[Trailerpark Badass]

I'm no math major, but isn't that something like 1.3%. Which would mean that 98.7% haven't been "held."

Terrifying.

[SauronOfMordor]

As a means of comparing rates, Texas has a population of 20 million, so CHL holders are 1% of the population. So in almost all categories, Texas CHL holders commit crimes at significantly less rate than non-CHL

[Maelstrom]

You stumbled into it by accident.

If a concealed carry permit holder uses his weapon in self-defense, he's held for committing a crime until the justification is shown to the satisfaction of the prosecuting attorney.

"Held for crime" does not even mean charges are brought against the permit holder. So...held until charges are decided against...held and charges later dropped...held and then acquitted...are all used in this smear piece to create a mountain out of a molehill.

[NewRomeTacitus]

"POSSESSION OF COMPONENTS OF EXPLOSIVES (Title 10, Chapter 46) 0 4 0.00%"
They're not above bullying hobbyists and reloaders. Swine will root.

[jscd3]

If a concealed carry permit holder uses his weapon in self-defense, he's held for committing a crime until the justification is shown to the satisfaction of the prosecuting attorney.

"Held for crime" does not even mean charges are brought against the permit holder. So...held until charges are decided against...held and charges later dropped...held and then acquitted...are all used in this smear piece to create a mountain out of a molehill.

This is interesting. Since the actual statistics posted in the discussion indicate that the actual number of crimes committed by CC holders is in the low hundreds, but the number of times said weapons are used for self defense could be imputed to be in the thousands (since that's the number of times that CC holders are "held"), could we not conclude that a CC holder is at least 10 times more likely to use their weapon in self defense or defense of others than to be involved in a crime?

Don't take this to seriously, just having some fun...

[Maelstrom]

Ok...

...but no, we don't have any statistics on why they were held. We just know the author is full of shi...crap.